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Official Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD & BDP-51FD Owners Thread / Vs 1.32 DTS-HD MA - Page 51

post #1501 of 30449
8/21/08 at 7:49pm
My wife got a new Canon Rebel XSI with three lenses for birthday/mother's day before I pre-ordered the 151. She loves the camera and the tv!
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post #1502 of 30449
8/21/08 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

btw what did your wife get for herself after you should up with the Denon 3800? See these are the little added costs of are toys but we never seem to talk about what the wife got after we got are new toy.

All my "toys" are equally for my wife. She enjoys movies and our HT (and the living room set up) as much or more than I do. A dedicated HT was her idea.
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post #1503 of 30449
8/21/08 at 7:54pm
My wife is into home theater too, but her first love is photography. She has been wanting to upgrade her camera, I just decided to do it first. I will say this, high resolution digital photos on the 151 look stunning. We shot two local fireworks celebrations, and they looked great on the 151.
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post #1504 of 30449
8/21/08 at 8:05pm
Ruined,

The good,

No problems with Blades of Glory and Mission Imposible III (paramount pictures).

The bad,

Top Gun froze at 13 second, imediately after the paramount high definition advertisement.

XXX: State of the Union (BD live disk), played the disk saw the trailers and in the main menu press the play the movie. The movie plays but without audio... I stop the movie did the same thing and still not sound.. I fast forward it a little bit and sound played.. I rew to the start of the movie and the movie played flawlesly... Very weird behavior...
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post #1505 of 30449
8/21/08 at 8:16pm
Everyone's talking about Pioneer getting these freeze up issues fixed right away. I agree, but has anyone contacted Pioneer to report all these issues? I know that Chris and other Pioneer reps are reading this forum but how do we know whether or not anyone at Pioneer is actually working on these issues?

Does anyone have a direct contact person at Pioneer that can shed some light on these issues? It would be nice if they would at least tell us they are working on the issues or that they are looking into the problems.
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post #1506 of 30449
8/21/08 at 9:03pm
TheBland, You may have a 14 foot screen but the question I have is your display Deep Color or x.v. Color friendly? That is one key feature that gives the 51FD the edge. Without it it should at least be a draw...
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post #1507 of 30449
8/21/08 at 9:20pm
While quite a few here appear to be mating the new players to Pioneer displays, by chance, has anyone here hooked either the 51 or 05 up to a new pz800U Panny. Just curious cause currently I have an early gen. Panny (50U) series and having just picked up the 05FD tonight, i've also been seriously taking a look at a new pz800 for the system.
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post #1508 of 30449
8/21/08 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch57 View Post

Everyone's talking about Pioneer getting these freeze up issues fixed right away. I agree, but has anyone contacted Pioneer to report all these issues? I know that Chris and other Pioneer reps are reading this forum but how do we know whether or not anyone at Pioneer is actually working on these issues?

Does anyone have a direct contact person at Pioneer that can shed some light on these issues? It would be nice if they would at least tell us they are working on the issues or that they are looking into the problems.

Chris works with Pioneer so my guess is that anything he reads here of signficance would likely be reported.
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post #1509 of 30449
8/21/08 at 9:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Yep my new 51 from BB was also double taped on the bottom. And I have had np with my 51. So far it has been very solid and stable BD player. When you fire your new 51 up you will get a screen that is for first time setup, same as any DVD player I have ever set up.

I have monoprice cables and they seem to work just fine however they are not high speed HDMI cables.. I have some high speed cables (10.2 Gbps) coming so I will report back if in fact as Pioneer and Robert said to use high speed cables.

What do you mean by high speed cables? Aren't the monoprice HDMI 1.3a CL2 rated cables considered high speed?
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post #1510 of 30449
8/21/08 at 9:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch57 View Post

Everyone's talking about Pioneer getting these freeze up issues fixed right away. I agree, but has anyone contacted Pioneer to report all these issues? I know that Chris and other Pioneer reps are reading this forum but how do we know whether or not anyone at Pioneer is actually working on these issues?

I was wondering the same thing. Has anyone called Pioneer????

Dana

They can't fix it if they don't know it's broken...
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post #1511 of 30449
8/21/08 at 9:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Chris works with Pioneer so my guess is that anything he reads here of signficance would likely be reported.

We should help Chris out and start compiling a list of specific issues
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post #1512 of 30449
8/21/08 at 9:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBPM View Post

We should help Chris out and start compiling a list of specific issues

See page 1 of thread
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post #1513 of 30449
8/21/08 at 11:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

See page 1 of thread

Oh WOW. How did I miss that one? Hahaha. Great job Ruined!
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post #1514 of 30449
8/22/08 at 12:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBPM View Post

What do you mean by high speed cables? Aren't the monoprice HDMI 1.3a CL2 rated cables considered high speed?

Well I did call monoprice and they said no. However imo I like them and I am using them now. I ordered a set of high speed HDMI, the cables will be here Monday so I will report back the next day.

High speed (10.2 Gbps) This is an example of what highspeed is.
Monoprice HDMI 1.3a CL2 Rated (In-Wall Installation) note what CL2 rated is rated for In-Wall Installation.
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post #1515 of 30449
8/22/08 at 12:49am
Quick question, how do you check the color bit depth being fed into a kuro. I keep noticing every couple of posts people mentioning that their sets are showing 36bit but I have no idea where you guys are checking this.

By the way I have the 111fd
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post #1516 of 30449
8/22/08 at 1:02am
As soon as the HDMI source either starts up, or changes it's bit-depth you'll see it in the blue box, upper right corner. HDMI then 1080p, then 36-bit, etc.
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post #1517 of 30449
8/22/08 at 2:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Well I did call monoprice and they said no. However imo I like them and I am using them now. I ordered a set of high speed HDMI, the cables will be here Monday so I will report back the next day.

High speed (10.2 Gbps) This is an example of what highspeed is.
Monoprice HDMI 1.3a CL2 Rated (In-Wall Installation) note what CL2 rated is rated for In-Wall Installation.

where are you ordering the High speed cables. I also called Monoprice yesterday and they said the Category 2 cables were the latest version to pass all the 1.3 info. I did not think or know to ask about High Speed
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post #1518 of 30449
8/22/08 at 2:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D_B_0673 View Post

where are you ordering the High speed cables. I also called Monoprice yesterday and they said the Category 2 cables were the latest version to pass all the 1.3 info. I did not think or know to ask about High Speed

Amazon.
However I am not saying we need these cables. I am just going by what Robert and Pioneer said and what it says in my 51 owners manual. Like I said I will be reporting back Tuesday. These cables are not cheap. Unless they come today but I don't think so.
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post #1519 of 30449
8/22/08 at 3:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D_B_0673 View Post

where are you ordering the High speed cables. I also called Monoprice yesterday and they said the Category 2 cables were the latest version to pass all the 1.3 info. I did not think or know to ask about High Speed

The Monoprice HDMI 1.3a Cat. 2 Certified Cables are high-speed compatible. High-speed denotes the ability to perform at speeds up to 340mHz. The monoprice 1.3a category 2 certified cables are able to do this. If you look at Robert's own avs page below the picture of the 51 you'll see 3' or 6' HDMI 1.3 category 2 340mHz bandwidth cable. The exact same specs quoted on the monoprice page
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post #1520 of 30449
8/22/08 at 4:14am
So , whats the verdict on the deep color upconversion. Does it work well?
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post #1521 of 30449
8/22/08 at 4:17am
Sure we get piece of mind getting "official" HDMI 1.3a certified cables but I want to point out that I am using two 35' HDMI cables to my pj. One is the new Monster Ultra 1000 (was a gift) and the other is the original Monster HDMI400. My display shows absolutely NO difference depending on the cable I use. I repeat, NO difference whatsoever. I know HDMI 1.3a cables will give most peace of mind but you should not have to spend an arm and a leg to pass High Speed Transmissions. Thank you Monoprice for your great prices!
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post #1522 of 30449
8/22/08 at 4:29am
Joerod,

You really don't really believe that 'deep color' capability (with a compliant display) without any 'deep color' BD discs does anything to the picture do you? It may be doing something but it may not be accurate.. If you are calibrated to D65 and the discs are simple 8 bit (like they are). not sure what you could possibly be touting here?? Be more specific on what you feel you are seeing. It defies conventional thinking given the software we have.
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post #1523 of 30449
8/22/08 at 5:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I am starting to wonder if DTS MA is even possible with firmware in this piece.... I am baffled why it did not release with it when other earlier pieces did.

DenonJeff promised DTS HD on the 3800 as well as the Denon website and brochure.... guess what? Hasn't happened and likely won't happen.

I hoipe it does for you guys but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Jeff, what makes you think the 3800 is not decoding MA? Is there a post somewhere that I missed in the owner's thread that confirms this? AFAIK, the issue is with decoding DTS-HD HR or recognizing the flag for HR, not decoding of MA.
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post #1524 of 30449
8/22/08 at 5:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

TheBland, You may have a 14 foot screen but the question I have is your display Deep Color or x.v. Color friendly? That is one key feature that gives the 51FD the edge. Without it it should at least be a draw...

Again, I quexstion your enthusiasm as there is nothingto back it up. I am as much of a videophile as anyone... but you can't ignore the facts about x.v. and Deep Color. There is no edge with the '51. Folks here should know this before purchasing.



Since you don't believe me, here is a snippet from Audioholics:

Currently, Hollywood films are telecined directly to digital, with masters stored on D5 tape in 10-bit 4:2:2 format. While this is better than the 8-bit 4:2:0 present on current media, it's still not 12- or 16-bit Deep Color or even utilizing the xvYCC color space. Without mastering and the ability to store xvYCC on source material (other than games which are generated via PC video cards) it seems that xvYCC is largely a marketing gimmick, save the new lines of camcorders, etc which boast 10-bit recording and xvYCC support. Somehow, eliminating the occasional color banding in home movies isn't exactly the incredible leap in technology for which most of us were hoping.

'x.v.Color,' a branding methodology (from Sony) with associated logo whose purpose is to provide consumers with a simplified means of identifying xvYCC-compliant displays in anticipation of retail availability later this year.



Jim Peterson (Head of Lumagen) on the private Lumagen forum parroted this view as well that Deep color is pure hype and marketing. He is the video processor guru in the industry. Here is a snippet of his comments on deep color:

Deep color is pretty much all hype and no substance - at least for now and the forseeable future.

Consumer sources are 8-bits --- then they are compressed. Even if a blu-ray movie master started with "more bits" the compression would reduce it to the same quality as if they started with 8-bits. There are only so many bits to go around even on a bluray disc. I looked at the bit-rate on one movie (Pirates - Dead Man's chest) and the bit-rate was around 22 Mbits/second. Better than DVD's which run 5 to 6 Mbits/sec, and the compression is more advanced. Still, if you wanted full-fidelity at 8-bits you should see more like 35 Mbps. Full-fidelity at, say, 12-bits would be about 8X to 16X this -- bluray is not currently capable of this. Granted you can make improvements beyond 8-bit in the 50 to 70 Mbps range, but this would be subtle, pehaps gaining at most 1 LSB of precision (i.e. 9-bit), and certainly could be handled with HDMI 1.1's 4:2:2 format.

Also, the compression is 4:2:0. That is, 1/4 resolution Chroma. 4:2:2 at 12-bit format is available with HDMI 1.1 and is already beyond what can be effectively used. Independent of what is claimed by manufacturers, the actual signal to noise of the current batch of TV's and projectors, is probably around 10-bits. So, we generally recommend our customers use our 4:2:2 12-bit output mode, but with dither set to 10-bits, since this tends to best match the capability of the displays. Using a 4:4:4 12-bit mode would buy you nothing for consumer sources --- and it will cost you money.



So, you see, what you may be seeing is the excitment factor of a new player with an unknown menu feature or an aberration in the output.

Personally, I wouldn't be touting that the x.v. display and 'deep color' as an improvement in image quality (and what sets this player apart). Many cheaper players do this as well as DTS MA decoding. This is the truth, as I see it, about the 51. It likely will be an excellent player but lets not make it more than it really is....
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post #1525 of 30449
8/22/08 at 5:08am
All I will counter with is SEEING IS BELIEVING!
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post #1526 of 30449
8/22/08 at 5:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

All I will counter with is SEEING IS BELIEVING!

You mean believing is seeing!!!

This might make a nice separate thread...Apparently there are alot who actually believe this 'deep color' x.v. garbage.... Now 'cmon Joe, we know you are smarter than falling for and repeating the hype. So, how much did you get paid?? Free player? Free 906? ...
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post #1527 of 30449
8/22/08 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Jeff, what makes you think the 3800 is not decoding MA? Is there a post somewhere that I missed in the owner's thread that confirms this? AFAIK, the issue is with decoding DTS-HD HR or recognizing the flag for HR, not decoding of MA.

Actually, I'll preempt your reply with "proof" that the 3800 has a MA decoder with this post I made in the BD50 owner's thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

DTS speaker re-mapping bug

What is it?

The DTS speaker re-mapping bug is caused by a DTS-HD MA decoder that has not been updated to recognize speaker re-mapping in software. This bug can either be in the AVR or in the decoding player (in this case, possibly the BD50). Known software to include this new re-mapping feature include mostly newer New Line titles with 7.1 DTS-HD MA like Golden Compass, The Orphanage, Semi-Pro, Harold and Kumar 2, etc.

What are the symptoms?

Loud sounds are output from the rear speakers, many more dB than the front channels!

What is the cause?

This bug only manifests if the 7.1 audio is downmixed to 5.1. Since the BD50 has no choice but to output downmixed 5.1 through the analogs, then the BD50 is a candidate for the bug. The bug will not show up in the player if it is bitstreaming to an AVR. The bug may show up if the AVR requires a firmware update.

What is the solution?

Wait for an update from the CE manufacturer. On the Denon 3800, it is possible to avoid the bug by specifiying you have a 7.1 setup but you would lose 2 channels of information if you physically only have a 5.1 system.

I haven't read any such complaints on this thread so I can only imagine the BD50 has the proper DTS re-mapping recognition out of the box.

Here's a link from the official site (look towards the bottom):

http://www.dts.com/DTS_In_Consumer_P...S-HD_Work.aspx

Basically what it boils down to is this DTS Speaker re-mapping bug only affects DTS-HD MA decoders. Since I experienced it with Golden Compass BD over analog audio, I know DTS-HD MA was being down downmixed from 7.1 to 5.1 in the 3800. If I was only getting core, the soundtrack would have played fine on my receiver.

Jeff, I think you should edit your posts or people will start thinking the 3800 is incapable of decoding MA.
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post #1528 of 30449
8/22/08 at 5:40am
It cracks me up that those who do not have the newer displays (pjs) automatically dismiss deep color or x.v. color. And what would a 906 have to do with deep color? And the best you can do is quote an article from audioholics? Tell me, what were they using to test deep color or x.v. color? It is pure speculation based on anyone's part until they have the capability in their set up or testing equipment. And the same goes for you. You may have an ISF guy but I would bet on my Sencore OTC 1000 which shows great results. It only runs about $7,000 so I would imagine it knows what it is doing. How much does your ISF guy cost?
LL
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post #1529 of 30449
8/22/08 at 5:51am
Later today I am going to be an owner of a shiny new BDP-05FD. I am going to call the Pioneer store and have one shipped. Should be here Monday or Tuesday. Got real tired of waiting for BB when I know I can get one now.

Can't wait to hook it up to my Sammy A750
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post #1530 of 30449
8/22/08 at 5:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

It cracks me up that those who do not have the newer displays (pjs) automatically dismiss deep color or x.v. color. And what would a 906 have to do with deep color? And the best you can do is quote an article from audioholics? Tell me, what were they using to test deep color or x.v. color? It is pure speculation based on anyone's part until they have the capability in their set up or testing equipment. And the same goes for you. You may have an ISF guy but I would bet on my Sencore OTC 1000 which shows great results. It only runs about $7,000 so I would imagine it knows what it is doing. How much does your ISF guy cost?

Joe,

I am only quoting the facts from two respected sources. You can see what ever you want to see. But lets not pass that off as hard fact.
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