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post #91 of 223
8/23/08 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

The statement below indicates that you have a poor understanding of the relationships between controls. The statement that a set would be oversaturated "even in warm mode" is simply incongruous.

I understand the difference between grayscale and color decoding. Like Tom Huffman pointed out, better whites in a grayscale can improve color, so i don't think you are 100% right.?





Quote:


You seem to have a greater valuation of your "eye for accuracy" than most of us with lots of measurement and calibration experience would even attribute to ourselves. I have been calibrating sets since 1979 with and without instrumentation and have a better "eye" than most but I would not assume the accuracy that you seem to. I would characterize your "eye for accuracy" as personal preference.


You are probably right. But i disagree with personal preferance. Why is it so hard to know what a accurate picture looks like? It's a TV. Being outside the film camera and looking at the real thing is 100% accurate. No display can ever truely replicate being outside. Or being at the concert or game compared to watching it on tv.

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post #92 of 223
8/23/08 at 8:49am
Maybe it's not "preference", but perhaps "acceptance". To know what an accurate picture looks like, you need a before and after experience on your TV.

Of course "being there" and watching on any TV is not the same. Proper calibration can get it as close as possible.

But OTOH... if you have never been to an eye doctor to tell you have poor eyesight (using test gear), you have "accepted" what you see "being there" as 100% accurate when it really isn't.
post #93 of 223
8/23/08 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

You were the one making the claim as to the average price of a calibration...

I didn't say average either. Please stop. This is boring.
post #94 of 223
8/23/08 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater View Post

I didn't say average either. Please stop. This is boring.

Common, average...now you're splitting hairs because you have nothing else to stand on.

Stop what? Revealing how your arguments are hollow, you rely on putting words in other's mouths to spread misinformation, and you constantly backpeddle and revise your story when called out on it? If you don't do it, I can't point it out
post #95 of 223
8/23/08 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

and the people sharing settings willy nilly are just shooting in the dark with a shotgun.

In the 650 Calibration thread I share my settings but not with a blind eye. While I'm new to the forums, I have enough sense to know that my settings may not apply to anyone elses TV. In fact, I have two 650s that require completely different settings. I just share them because that's what the thread was designed for.

There is a misconception that by copying settings for a specific firmware will achieve an accurate, let alone an ideal picture. Many ask for the "best" or "most popular" settings for their TV and firmware. I tell them there's no such thing.

The best anyone can do by copying settings is to hope that it'll fall in the ballpark and even that is often a hit and miss. What I see is not necessarily the same thing another person sees. Sometimes copying settings will actually make the picture worse. I make it known to people that copying and pasting is not calibration nor is the ideal way to achieve an accurate PQ. Every TV, environment, components and viewing habits come into play; therefore, every TV in its most ideal sense should be calibrated individually. Without a reference point or measure of what the standard is it is then you're shooting in the dark with a shotgun.

There is no substitute for knowledge, experience (and equiptment). In this Display Calibration forum there's a lot of fantastic information for us DIY people. I take in what I can and hope that I'm stepping in with the right foot.
post #96 of 223
8/23/08 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

Funny thing is that some will spend hours looking for settings and yet refuse to take 10 minutes to use a disc like the FREE THX optimode which will give them better settings and they might actually learn something in the process.


I've been observing the above in threads I most frequent. I even read a couple of people asking other members to post their settings which TVs were professionally calibrated (#2). For some, there may be an intimidation because there's a great learning curve; for some, they may accept an accross-the-board settings as an acceptable way to adjust their TV; for others, as I noted in my sentence #2, they just want things handed to them. There may be more reasons but I can only think of 3 at the moment.
post #97 of 223
8/23/08 at 2:43pm
Greetings

Why should you be the one that passed the test?

Why should I have to study and work hard to get what you accomplished?

I want to be lazy, I don't want to have to think ... god forbid I learn something. I'm saving those limited brain cells for something else.

My brain hurts.

That's why TVs have presets ... the custom/warm 2 mode on the Sony sets are pretty decent in general for factory settings. The Movie mode in the Samsungs is a great place to start .... The movie mode in the Pioneers ... the Cinema mode in the Panasonics ...

I tracked about 25 elite kuros over the last 18 months or so where each client was using the D-nice settings as a start. One of the sets turned out to be amazingly close to the final calibrated state. (4% ... 1/25 success rate) The others gave results that were close to the TV's preset modes or were in fact further off.

So by doing nothing, but picking the movie mode for instance, they had a 96% chance of getting a better result than by copying numbers. More time/effort was wasted in the pursuit of settings versus the 10 sec. it took to click Movie mode and be done with it.

Regards
post #98 of 223
8/23/08 at 2:51pm
I had to adjust my post to match your edit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

Why should you be the one that passed the test?

Why should I have to study and work hard to get what you accomplished?

I want to be lazy, I don't want to have to think ... god forbid I learn something. I'm saving those limited brain cells for something else.

My brain hurts.




The sad part is that type of mentality is all around us, far beyond the scopes of TV calibration.
post #99 of 223
8/23/08 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

So by doing nothing, but picking the movie mode for instance, they had a 96% chance of getting a better result than by copying numbers. More time/effort was wasted in the pursuit of settings versus the 10 sec. it took to click Movie mode and be done with it.

It's ironic that people who are in the category of taking the easier route spend more energy looking for settings than a 10 second click to Movie Mode. In reality, they're putting more effort into an inferior outcome.
post #100 of 223
8/23/08 at 4:50pm
So those of us who are reasonable and experienced seem to agree that in some cases, there are some general guidelines within some specific models that can improve the image quality for most novice users who will not be calibrating their sets. This is not the same as someone deciding that their set is accurate, subjectively, and then suggesting that others duplicate their settings.

That said, I suggest again, that other than specific advice, for specific sets, that we know will be generalizable within that model, it is pointless to discuss the matter much more in the calibration forum. Even in those cases, it is likely more appropriate to approach the matter in the set specific forums where people are being misled constantly. Thus, in effect, George was right with the initial post here. George may come across sometimes as condescending, but he is in most cases correct. This is another one of those cases.

Also, as I previously pointed out, there is a forum, TweakTV, which provides exactly the kind of information for consumers that want advice on basic settings. It is administered by professionals and the information is based on some actual experience with calibrated sets.
post #101 of 223
8/23/08 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater View Post

Yep, that's what's been said. Don't share settings. Period.

Please find the message where that was said.

Some of the posts have corrected the assertion that sharing settings "works" - because we know that shared settings are a crap shoot... some may be fine when shared, others may cause serious errors - and more often than not, you can share some settings but not others. I've read countless messages on AVS that have complained about one person's or another's settings not looking anywhere close to right on the writer's display.

And I've never charged anybody $400 for a calibration of a flat panel display so far... it's always less than that (so far). And furthermore, anybody who is purchasing a $1000 to $7000 video display isn't poor. Poor is when you need help to feed yourself or keep a roof over your head... just in case there are any questions about what poor is.
post #102 of 223
8/23/08 at 5:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:


It's ironic that people who are in the category of taking the easier route spend more energy looking for settings than a 10 second click to Movie Mode. In reality, they're putting more effort into an inferior outcome.

A classic example of what I termed in the original post as "a fool's errand."
post #103 of 223
8/23/08 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Please find the message where that was said.

Some of the posts have corrected the assertion that sharing settings "works" - because we know that shared settings are a crap shoot... some may be fine when shared, others may cause serious errors - and more often than not, you can share some settings but not others. I've read countless messages on AVS that have complained about one person's or another's settings not looking anywhere close to right on the writer's display.

And I've never charged anybody $400 for a calibration of a flat panel display so far... it's always less than that (so far). And furthermore, anybody who is purchasing a $1000 to $7000 video display isn't poor. Poor is when you need help to feed yourself or keep a roof over your head... just in case there are any questions about what poor is.

"The crux of the opening post is not whether to calibrate, but good advice to not copy settings."

"Copying others' work on another device is a fool's errand."

"$400.00 for a skilled calibration of a display and connected source components is a fair and reasonable rate."

As had been repeated many times in this thread, copying some settings are probably ok. Some may have mixed results. And many will have disasterous results. (EDIT: And we all agree that copying settings is not the same as calibration.)

As had also been said, some calibrations are less than $400. Perhaps some are more. Whether someone can afford calibration is a personal choice. And whether someone can understand how to use a calibration DVD is also not something we need to debate. Face it - some people are barely capable of plugging the TV into the wall. (Yet these people seem to know how to use the internet, usually posting in all caps. Go figure.)

We all agree that professional calibration is better than a calibration disk. And some of us agree that copying "some" basic settings are better than nothing.

So is there an issue?
post #104 of 223
8/23/08 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater View Post

I still stand by the "elitism" comment for folks in this forum that guard their settings and knowledge. Those are the folks that spread the rumor that calibrations cost $400, and anything less is crap.

"Guarding" settings is not done by any calibrator I know... the fact is, the settings from one display don't work on another display so giving them out is just dumb. When there are settings that do follow a close pattern from display to display, I've had no problem sharing them and have done so in the Samsung plasma threads. If you have a problem with ONE calibrator, you shouldn't paint them all with the same brush. Personally, I've never seen a statement like the one you made above... but nobody has time to read every post in evey thread on AVS.

Here's a tip... I belong to a membership/subscription forum for certified calibrators. There are NO THREADS in that calibrator forum about sharing calibration settings... NONE. The pros don't even bother because we all know it doesn't work. There are PLENTY of threads about how to access service menus and how to use various controls to achieve best calibration results. But there are NO threads about the settings one calibrator ended up with on any given video display. If there was any value in sharing settings, you know the pros would be all over it. I don't LIKE spending 3-4 hours calibrating every display, it would be great to cut out a couple of hours and lower fees to attract more customers... but I haven't been able to make it work yet. And I've tried copying calibration settings from a previous calibration into the next identical brand/model... it doesn't do anything to cut down the 3-4 hours it takes to do a thorough and well-documented calibration.
post #105 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:


So is there an issue?

YES, the one mentioned in the original post! The sharing of menu settings belongs in the display specific owner's threads NOT in the display calibration section of the forum.
post #106 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:07pm
George can confirm that he and I have had some rather severe differences in the past and I don't blow smoke.....but in this case he is correct, as I have said above. There is obviously more to the matter than his original post implied, but the crux of what he said was dead on.
post #107 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

YES, the one mentioned in the original post! The sharing of menu settings belongs in the display specific owner's threads NOT in the display calibration section of the forum.

And I agree with that. Can we all hug and move along?
post #108 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:10pm
OK Mark, time to shut this one down, and make it a sticky, or at least the first post.
post #109 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater View Post

And I agree with that. Can we all hug and move along?


George and I, and now Doug, never hug and sing Kumbaya. We just give each other a head butt and move on.
post #110 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:


I don't blow smoke

C'mon now, you've never inadvertently fried a circuit?
post #111 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

George and I, and now Doug, never hug and sing Kumbaya. We just give each other a head butt and move on.

What could we ask more: A thread that not only informs but brings people together.
post #112 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

"Guarding" settings is not done by any calibrator I know... the fact is, the settings from one display don't work on another display so giving them out is just dumb. When there are settings that do follow a close pattern from display to display, I've had no problem sharing them and have done so in the Samsung plasma threads. If you have a problem with ONE calibrator, you shouldn't paint them all with the same brush. Personally, I've never seen a statement like the one you made above... but nobody has time to read every post in evey thread on AVS.

Here's a tip... I belong to a membership/subscription forum for certified calibrators. There are NO THREADS in that calibrator forum about sharing calibration settings... NONE. The pros don't even bother because we all know it doesn't work. There are PLENTY of threads about how to access service menus and how to use various controls to achieve best calibration results. But there are NO threads about the settings one calibrator ended up with on any given video display. If there was any value in sharing settings, you know the pros would be all over it. I don't LIKE spending 3-4 hours calibrating every display, it would be great to cut out a couple of hours and lower fees to attract more customers... but I haven't been able to make it work yet. And I've tried copying calibration settings from a previous calibration into the next identical brand/model... it doesn't do anything to cut down the 3-4 hours it takes to do a thorough and well-documented calibration.

Your first sentence was black and white:

"the settings from one display don't work on another display so giving them out is just dumb"

That's the type of comments that I have a problem with. Some settings ARE generally ok to share, like Temp, Contrast, and turning off all the silly automatic settings. (It varies with the TV, so don't jump all over these examples.) And I'm not saying that every Sony XBR should have a Contrast of exactly 89 (just an example). I'm saying that 89 is better than Max or 2. Do we really disagree with this? I don't think so because your next sentence was much softer:

"When there are settings that do follow a close pattern from display to display, I've had no problem sharing them and have done so in the Samsung plasma threads."

So I "think" we're in agreement. I only have problems with the black and white "don't share" comments.

As far as this:

"If you have a problem with ONE calibrator, you shouldn't paint them all with the same brush."

I certainly didn't mean to say this, and I don't think I did say it, because I don't have a problem with professional calibrators. Or the $400 that some charge. (And, yes, I know that some are cheaper.) I value their service, as I've said repeatedly. I've learned alot from you folks. The only problem I have is with the "don't ever share settings" comments.
post #113 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmo0ve View Post

What could we ask more: A thread that not only informs but brings people together.

BTW, I draw the line at naked circle drumming in the woods.

OK, and with that visual image maybe we can consider this thread beat to death.
post #114 of 223
8/23/08 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

C'mon now, you've never inadvertently fried a circuit?

Got me. Like every other poser technician, I have installed a cap backwards here and there...and let the smoke out.
post #115 of 223
8/23/08 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater View Post

The only problem I have is with the "don't ever share settings" comments.

I know you're speaking with Doug but I wanted to share my observation. Going back to the first post and reading on down, there seems to be a misunderstanding somewhere. In GeorgeAB's first two sentences of this thread and I quote:

Quote:


You are in the wrong section of the forum if you want to copy or share display menu settings. Try the display owners section that corresponds to your model.

He clearly said the Display Calibration forum isn't a place to copy/share settings; there are other threads for that purpose. Furthermore, in his first post he gave reasons why copying other people's settings is not recommended for accurate PQ. What he did not say, nor did anyone else from what I read, is to never share settings which you are asserting.

If they had, believe me that they'll be all over me when in fact, it's just the opposite. Whenever I had a question in this forum, even via PM, the professionals were kind enough to help out. I will also state that it's in their best interest to give people like me, a DIY, factual information so that in return I give out accurate information when I communicate with other members.

There are many times a communication breakdown in forums. We all communicate differently and sometimes take things out of context. It happened with me and GeorgeAB recently but after a clarification everything was straight. My point really is instead of assuming what the other person is saying if something doesn't add up ask for a clarification.

Again, just my observation.
post #116 of 223
8/23/08 at 11:20pm
No one here has ever said not to share settings - they've only reiterated that doing so is NOT a calibration, and that usually it's more detrimental than using one of the pre-set color temperatures or having a professional calibrate the display. Thusly, sharing one's display settings for the sake of helping others dial in their displays 1) doesn't achieve the desired affect and 2) doesn't belong in the calibration forum, because doing so isn't tantamount to performing a calibration. Such discussion doesn't belong in this forum - does anyone not understand that point?
post #117 of 223
8/24/08 at 12:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

does anyone not understand that point?

Tune in next time and watch as the drama unfolds. Participation is optional.
post #118 of 223
8/24/08 at 6:46am
I think the main issue here is philosophical differences. The experienced calibrators know that it's a complete waste of time to share settings, but this is in comparison to actually doing something as simple as using a THX optimode DVD. Those that aren't experienced at calibration think it's better to use someone else's settings rather then do nothing at all. If you boil George's main point down to it's most essential, I think he's basically saying "I think sharing settings is ill-advised, but if you are going to share settings, this is not the place to do it.".

Then there seems to be a 2nd "debate" between experienbced calibrators with accurate equipment, and one fellow who using no reference thinks his eyes are 100% accurate to judge a picture (though I am surprised no one brought up an optical comparator which is the only meaningful way to do your grayscale without measing devices).

George, you should post links to your optical illusions so people can understand why we can't trust our eyes for this stuff.
post #119 of 223
8/24/08 at 7:45am
Thread Starter 
The links to the eChalk and LottoLab demonstrations are found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post10575635 It must be understood by anyone studying imaging science that our human visual system is very readily adaptive to circumstances. Therefore, no reliable visual check of electronic images for gray scale or color accuracy can be conducted without a visual reference. Such references typically include a neutral gray reference card under D65 illumination, or some type of optical comparator instrument. When Zues [sic] claimed to use a D65 reference monitor in setting up displays, I asked him what his reference monitor was. He refused to provide that critical and helpful information. If he adds that information to this thread, someone else will have to inform me, since he is on my ignore list.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
post #120 of 223
8/24/08 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

"Guarding" settings is not done by any calibrator I know... the fact is, the settings from one display don't work on another display so giving them out is just dumb. When there are settings that do follow a close pattern from display to display, I've had no problem sharing them and have done so in the Samsung plasma threads. If you have a problem with ONE calibrator, you shouldn't paint them all with the same brush. Personally, I've never seen a statement like the one you made above... but nobody has time to read every post in evey thread on AVS.

Here's a tip... I belong to a membership/subscription forum for certified calibrators. There are NO THREADS in that calibrator forum about sharing calibration settings... NONE. The pros don't even bother because we all know it doesn't work. There are PLENTY of threads about how to access service menus and how to use various controls to achieve best calibration results. But there are NO threads about the settings one calibrator ended up with on any given video display. If there was any value in sharing settings, you know the pros would be all over it. I don't LIKE spending 3-4 hours calibrating every display, it would be great to cut out a couple of hours and lower fees to attract more customers... but I haven't been able to make it work yet.


But how much do the settings actually differ from the exact same model? And even if there was known settings that would get most models accurate, it would be bad for business as everyone would just use those settings. If a well known calibrator calibrates one on the newer pioneers, and that owner gives out the settings, which would obviously be in bad taste, how many people are going to call up the calibrator? Probably not many. Unless they believe models really are radically different from one to another. Which i am not saying can not be true.
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