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"Official" Denon AVR 2809CI/989 Thread - Page 120

post #3571 of 5602
7/28/09 at 12:50pm
I have a 3802 which I'm quite happy with. The only problem is it does not have HDMI.

I've recently upgraded all my equipment - Dish Receiver/Blu Ray player/TV to hi-def and HDMI.

I'm currently using 7.1 anlog inputs on my 3802 to connect to my Oppo Blu ray for the hi-def lossless formats.

I would like to replace my 3802 with another Denon, I don't require a lot of power, nor am I concerned about upconverting quality. Audio quality however is important to me.

Keeping this in mind what's the cheapest Denon that I can look at ?
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post #3572 of 5602
7/28/09 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandan123 View Post

...what's the cheapest Denon that I can look at ?

Hi Dan. I'd consider a 2809 or 3808. Both are exc for AQ and are great values @ present discounting.
Oh, and you will be delighted with Audyssey MultEQXT w/DynEQ. If the networking capability & upgradability of the 3808 (prob. around $1000) are not of import, then "cheapest" is the 2809 (around $800).
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post #3573 of 5602
7/28/09 at 4:28pm
Can the networking ability be used for streaming audio or is it only used for firmware upgrades ?
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post #3574 of 5602
7/28/09 at 5:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandan123 View Post

Can the networking ability be used for streaming audio or is it only used for firmware upgrades ?

Both, but there are other methods of getting streaming content to a any non-networked Denon. What are you interested in?

Note better hurry as 2809 and 3808 are becoming scarce, but still available.
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post #3575 of 5602
7/28/09 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandan123 View Post

I have a 3802 which I'm quite happy with. The only problem is it does not have HDMI.

I've recently upgraded all my equipment - Dish Receiver/Blu Ray player/TV to hi-def and HDMI.

I'm currently using 7.1 anlog inputs on my 3802 to connect to my Oppo Blu ray for the hi-def lossless formats.

I would like to replace my 3802 with another Denon, I don't require a lot of power, nor am I concerned about upconverting quality. Audio quality however is important to me.

Keeping this in mind what's the cheapest Denon that I can look at ?

Hi
I recommend that you take a look at the 2809. it has the feature you want and the SQ is very good. I got this to replace an aging Marantz and did a AB test using the same speakers (B&W 601 ) and to me there was a difference. IMHO, the Denons seems to have a good control of the 601 better than the marantz. as for another test i did, i replace the speakers with NHT 2.5i and the results are similar. the soundstage and imaging of the denon is better than the marantz.
that my 02cents
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post #3576 of 5602
7/28/09 at 6:38pm
JohnAV, bp, jd, etc., apologies in advance for this but I'm confused and would like some schoolin' in digital processing, DSD and AL24 processing plus. This comes up in the context of comparing processing in the Denon vs the Oppo BRP-83. I would like to have a more in-depth understanding of my results. I posted this in the 83 thread:
"I A/B'd some SACD's and with Oppo set to output DSD (AL24 light OFF) it sounds distinctly better to me than does PCM (AL24 light ON). To my ears this is mostly a matter of additional detail and clarity although both sound very good. With the BR hidef codecs it is not so clear for me. I listened to several of the soundtrack music selections and effects in "Watchmen", again A/Bing bs vs PCM. I seem to be hearing the PCM as slightly louder overall. Without taking any measurements, if I equalize for that by cranking the bs by 1.5 dB, they sound pretty damn close, to my ears."

The 2809 and 3808 spec sheets indicate "AL24+ FR/FL", but both owner manuals have the following descriptions:
"AL24 Processing Plus for All Channels
DENON has further developed its proprietary AL24 Processing, an analog waveform reproduction technology, to support the 192-kHz sampling frequency. AL24 Processing Plus, thoroughly suppresses quantization noise associated with D/A conversion of LPCM signals to reproduce the low-level signals with optimum clarity that will bring out all the delicate nuances of the music. Equipped foe not only front left and right channels but also for the surround left and right, center and subwoofer channels."Equipped for not only front left and right channels but also for the surround left and right, center and subwoofer channels."

So I'm thinking the 2809 only uses this AL24 processing only on PCM input yet apparently when it does its own DAC on the "pure" bitstreamed signals such processing is not needed. Yet it has often been stated that "bitstreaming HiDef codecs or having your player decode them and send PCM to your AVR should sound the same"-and that's pretty much what I heard. Hmmm...so what is the role of the proprietary AL24 processing if this is the case for AVR's in general?

Interestingly, in response to my post, jcrys posted in the 83 thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16904058 that he had the same impression, DSD sounds better, but not either way of decoding the HD BR codecs. And his unit has “Advanced AL24 Processing” which is applied to all channels and sound modes (except DSD Direct) all the time.

I would appreciate any enlightening pedantic explanation. TIA.
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post #3577 of 5602
7/28/09 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Hi Dan. I'd consider a 2809 or 3808. Both are exc for AQ and are great values @ present discounting.

I thought I'd posted a reply ... but I guess not ... I bought a 989 (2809 peer) a month ago, at a clear out discount, and I'm very happy with it.

IMHO the networking function is best provided by a separate box plugged into the AVR ... because given the rate of networking technology change, the odds are I'll upgrade the networking box once or twice per AVR upgrade ... so I favour the 989/2809 over the 3808.
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post #3578 of 5602
7/28/09 at 10:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

JohnAV, bp, jd, etc., apologies in advance for this but I'm confused and would like some schoolin' in digital processing, DSD and AL24 processing plus. This comes up in the context of comparing processing in the Denon vs the Oppo BRP-83. I would like to have a more in-depth understanding of my results. I posted this in the 83 thread:
"I A/B'd some SACD's and with Oppo set to output DSD (AL24 light OFF) it sounds distinctly better to me than does PCM (AL24 light ON). To my ears this is mostly a matter of additional detail and clarity although both sound very good. With the BR hidef codecs it is not so clear for me. I listened to several of the soundtrack music selections and effects in "Watchmen", again A/Bing bs vs PCM. I seem to be hearing the PCM as slightly louder overall. Without taking any measurements, if I equalize for that by cranking the bs by 1.5 dB, they sound pretty damn close, to my ears."

The 2809 and 3808 spec sheets indicate "AL24+ FR/FL", but both owner manuals have the following descriptions:
"AL24 Processing Plus for All Channels
DENON has further developed its proprietary AL24 Processing, an analog waveform reproduction technology, to support the 192-kHz sampling frequency. AL24 Processing Plus, thoroughly suppresses quantization noise associated with D/A conversion of LPCM signals to reproduce the low-level signals with optimum clarity that will bring out all the delicate nuances of the music. Equipped foe not only front left and right channels but also for the surround left and right, center and subwoofer channels."Equipped for not only front left and right channels but also for the surround left and right, center and subwoofer channels."

So I'm thinking the 2809 only uses this AL24 processing only on PCM input yet apparently when it does its own DAC on the "pure" bitstreamed signals such processing is not needed. Yet it has often been stated that "bitstreaming HiDef codecs or having your player decode them and send PCM to your AVR should sound the same"-and that's pretty much what I heard. Hmmm...so what is the role of the proprietary AL24 processing if this is the case for AVR's in general?

Interestingly, in response to my post, jcrys posted in the 83 thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16904058 that he had the same impression, DSD sounds better, but not either way of decoding the HD BR codecs. And his unit has “Advanced AL24 Processing” which is applied to all channels and sound modes (except DSD Direct) all the time.

I would appreciate any enlightening pedantic explanation. TIA.

The Oppo BDP-83 offers outputting the SACD signal either as a DSD bitstream or having it converted to PCM in the player before output. If you select DSD (1bit at 2.4Mhz) then it directly converts to analog. If you go the PCM route, you are converting DSD to PCM to analog. The audio doesn't sound as natural, because of slight loss of high frequency extension and dynamic range reduction involved in the conversion of PCM to analog. Actually a lot of people have done A/B comparisons will tell you that DSD to PCM does indeed degrade signal quality a bit.
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post #3579 of 5602
7/29/09 at 5:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

The Oppo BDP-83 offers outputting the SACD signal either as a DSD bitstream or having it converted to PCM in the player before output. If you select DSD (1bit at 2.4Mhz) then it directly converts to analog. If you go the PCM route, you are converting DSD to PCM to analog. The audio doesn't sound as natural, because of slight loss of high frequency extension and dynamic range reduction involved in the conversion of PCM to analog. Actually a lot of people have done A/B comparisons will tell you that DSD to PCM does indeed degrade signal quality a bit.

Thanks John. Your explanation helps me to understand why DSD was developed and how it does provide audibly better AQ when a DSD-capable AVR like the 2809 is used.
I'm still unclear on the BR bitstream vs PCM/ AL-24 stuff but it's more a pedantic conundrum. I'm very happy with the Denon2809/OppoBRP-83 marriage. Still picking up the rice.
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post #3580 of 5602
7/29/09 at 5:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

...If you select DSD (1bit at 2.4Mhz) then it directly converts to analog....

John, I was under the impression that, if using Audyssey, the DSD is converted to PCM to provide the correction/equalization and then further converted to analog to amplify the signal. Why would this be different?
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post #3581 of 5602
7/29/09 at 7:33am
I got this from someone who posted a review on amazon. I hope it's not true because I have a Sony KDL40-XBR4.

Quote:


Hi,

I had this receiver (Denon AVR-2809CI) for 2 weeks before I returned it. The sound is great and the remote is awesome. The video passed through perfectly fine as well. There was a problem though. It took a week researching on what could be the problem and it looks like others are having this problem as well.

If you have a Sony flat panel LCD that starts with the letters KDL (ex. KDL-52XBR4, KDL-Z4100, KDL-W3000) then you will have picture and sound dropouts. They will last for 3 seconds then picture and sound will restore. It'll happen anywhere between one to five times an hour and can get quite annoying.

I've spoke to Denon and there is no cure (firmware) or settings that can fix this problem with Sony LCD TVs. Those with rear projection Sony LCDs should be fine.

I've opened my new 2809CI but havent connected it yet with my tv, and Polk M70 & CS2 speakers. If this is the true then I'll have to return or sell my 2809CI and get the Pioneer Elite SC-07.
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post #3582 of 5602
7/29/09 at 7:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filipinoyakuza View Post

I got this from someone who posted a review on amazon. I hope it's not true because I have a Sony KDL40-XBR4.



I've opened my new 2809CI but havent connected it yet with my tv, and Polk M70 & CS2 speakers. If this is the true then I'll have to return or sell my 2809CI and get the Pioneer Elite SC-07.

Considering this problem doesn't seem to exist on other TVs, maybe Sony should be the ones providing the solution.
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post #3583 of 5602
7/29/09 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filipinoyakuza View Post

...If this is the true then I'll have to return or sell my 2809CI and get the Pioneer Elite SC-07.

You may also have a problem with that one. It's been widely reported that the Sonys have an HDMI handshake problem for some reason, and they don't play well with other equipment. Is there a setting within your panel that can turn off the CEC HDMI control? Do that also in the Denon, and see if you get the problem before you decide to return it.
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post #3584 of 5602
7/29/09 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

John, I was under the impression that, if using Audyssey, the DSD is converted to PCM to provide the correction/equalization and then further converted to analog to amplify the signal. Why would this be different?

It is different because you don't get Audyssey.

In "DSD DIRECT" mode the DSD gets converted directly to analog, with no intermediary PCM step -- thus, you lose Audyssey.

If you want to apply any digital processing to the SACD signal, such as Audyssey or bass management, then it WILL be converted to PCM first so you don't really gain much benefit from the DSD direct feature.


@SoM -- I don't know much of anything about SACD so I can't be too much technical help, but from what I understand the DSD encoding is a totally different thing than PCM and, when implemented properly, will yield better/cleaner sound. Here's the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital
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post #3585 of 5602
7/29/09 at 10:23am
He didn't mention DSD Direct in his explanation. Reading it again, it is somewhat confusing about whether the player is converting DSD to analog or the Denon is doing the conversion. If I select DSD in my Oppo, the Denon shows via the indicator that I am sending DSD.
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post #3586 of 5602
7/29/09 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

You may also have a problem with that one. It's been widely reported that the Sonys have an HDMI handshake problem for some reason, and they don't play well with other equipment. Is there a setting within your panel that can turn off the CEC HDMI control? Do that also in the Denon, and see if you get the problem before you decide to return it.

So your saying the Sony Bravia XBR4 and other XBR LCD series may be the problem and it won't matter if I use Denon, Pioneer Elite, or a different AVR ?
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post #3587 of 5602
7/29/09 at 11:03am
Jim,

my reading is that if you choose the DSD mode in the Oppo, it'll be bitstreamed as DSD to the 2809, and only then converted to analog though.
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post #3588 of 5602
7/29/09 at 11:08am
if the SACD is delivered over HDMI, the conversion to analog will happen in the Denon regardless of what mode you are in.

if the Denon is in "DSD DIRECT" mode, it will take the DSD and convert straight to analog with no intermediate PCM step. therefore, there will be zero digital processing (e.g. Audyssey, bass management. So it's just DSD > analog.

in any other mode, the Denon will convert DSD > PCM > analog.
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post #3589 of 5602
7/29/09 at 11:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

He didn't mention DSD Direct in his explanation. Reading it again, it is somewhat confusing about whether the player is converting DSD to analog or the Denon is doing the conversion. If I select DSD in my Oppo, the Denon shows via the indicator that I am sending DSD.

BDP-83 is outputting DSD via Bitstream, the AVR-2809 receiver is capable of converting DSD bitstream directly to analog.

Per Denon: When playing DSD signals in the DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode the DSD signals are converted as such into analog signals. When playing in other surround modes, the DSD signals are first converted into PCM format, then into analog signals.

DSD DIRECT is shown on the display when playing DSD 2-channel signals in the DIRECT mode. DSD MULTI DIRECT is shown on the display when playing DSD multi-channel signals in the DIRECT mode.

When DSD signals are converted to PCM signals as set by audio parameters and speakers settings, DIRECT and MULTI CH DIRECT is displayed.
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post #3590 of 5602
7/29/09 at 11:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filipinoyakuza View Post

I got this from someone who posted a review on amazon. I hope it's not true because I have a Sony KDL40-XBR4.

I've opened my new 2809CI but havent connected it yet with my tv, and Polk M70 & CS2 speakers. If this is the true then I'll have to return or sell my 2809CI and get the Pioneer Elite SC-07.

This would be a HDCP issue with the display and possibly the DVD or Blu-ray player that is in the HDMI 1.3a chain. The AVR-2809 is mearly a HDMI repeater and is not responsible for audio and video dropouts. This receiver also doesn't have any BTB or WTW issues either.

Please see this AVSforum thread against Official Sony Brava 08 Sound Dropout Issue.

Also discussed in the Official Sony KDL-XXZ4100 Owner's Thread

Looks like Sony provided a FW update to correct the issue.

BTW that comment about Sony LCD owners beware! was placed on numerous sites against multiple receivers.
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post #3591 of 5602
7/29/09 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

BDP-83 is outputting DSD via Bitstream, the AVR-2809 receiver is capable of converting DSD bitstream directly to analog.
Per Denon: When playing DSD signals in the DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode the DSD signals are converted as such into analog signals. When playing in other surround modes, the DSD signals are first converted into PCM format, then into analog signals...DSD MULTI DIRECT is shown on the display when playing DSD multi-channel signals in the DIRECT mode. When DSD signals are converted to PCM signals as set by audio parameters and speakers settings, DIRECT and MULTI CH DIRECT is displayed.

"My name is SoM and I am powerless over Audyssey MultEQXT & DynEQ."

Quite correct John. Sorry I didn't make this very clear in my OP:
Audyssey is always on in my HT, so in DSD Direct mode, the FPD shows MULTI CH DIRECT. This sounds virtually the same as when I hit the Std button and FPD then shows MULTI CH IN. In my very acoustically challenged room with Polk towers, the room correction outweighs any theoretical benefit of cutting out that internal conversion to PCM (and the DynEQ is just frosting on the cake). DSD MULTI DIRECT (Audyssey off) actually loses clarity, imaging, airiness, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

He didn't mention DSD Direct in his explanation. Reading it again, it is somewhat confusing about whether the player is converting DSD to analog or the Denon is doing the conversion...

Jim, to clarify, the only connection from Oppo to Denon is HDMI and for SACD I select DSD over PCM as it sounds better. So, no Oppo processing at all and D/A conversion is in the Denon.

batpig, thanks, I had read that wiki reference (twice, now thrice) and that basically syncs with John's point. But to me it seems to explain superior AQ in a mode (DSD direct to analog) that I don't use. Does DSD yield "better" PCM in the Denon?

And I don't get why Denon only applies AL24+ to PCM from outside sources (at least that's the only time the light goes on) such as Blu-ray HiDef Codec material converted to PCM in the Oppo. Does the denon do a better job of "unpacking" the Blu-ray bitstream data to PCM so it doesn't need AL24?? That doesn't seem likely, and they both sound the same. So the mysteries of internal digital processing continue to elude me. Ah, well, enough nerdy tech stuff for now. Sure glad my HT sounds so good!
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post #3592 of 5602
7/29/09 at 2:05pm
Thanks guys for the information. SoM, I would believe that the algorithm for converting DSD to PCM is pretty straightforward, and the digital modes added beyond that are the ones that would come into question of "better". With my system, I wouldn't even want to A/B for any differences, but perhaps someone like Kal with superior equipment has done a judgement on this. By the way, I too just use the HDMI connection for convenience and for keeping Audyssey running constantly to tame my room.
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post #3593 of 5602
7/29/09 at 3:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

Thanks guys for the information. SoM, I would believe that the algorithm for converting DSD to PCM is pretty straightforward, and the digital modes added beyond that are the ones that would come into question of "better". With my system, I wouldn't even want to A/B for any differences, but perhaps someone like Kal with superior equipment has done a judgement on this. By the way, I too just use the HDMI connection for convenience and for keeping Audyssey running constantly to tame my room.

We of course could turn the discussion here into a audiophile debate, that might boost the activity on this thread.

But DSD going to PCM then Analog is a bit more complicated:

What is the difference between PCM and DSD?

PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) is a very abstract way to describe an analog signal in a digital way but it's the best way that existed at the beginning of the eighties when CD was developed and introduced. In PCM, every sample consists of a combination of bits (typically between 14 and 24, depending on the carrier) describing the amplitude of the signal. The number of bits determines the resolution of how finely the signal can be described, where every added bit doubles the number of levels that can be distinguished.

Converting from analog sound to PCM and back to analog sound involves a fair number of processing steps, such as quantization. Every step can cause further distortions such as quantization noise, which has to be filtered out, in turn again deteriorating the sound quality.

DSD on the other hand is an extremely simple way of converting from analog to digital and back. The entire process is extremely transparent. In fact, the DSD bit stream is so closely related - perhaps analogous would be a proper term here - to the analog signal that if you were to feed it to a speaker (as a series of +1 and -1 values) you'd get back audible music.



Now isn't the point of AL24+ to remove quantization noise?
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post #3594 of 5602
7/29/09 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

We of course could turn the discussion here into a audiophile debate, that might boost the activity on this thread.
Now isn't the point of AL24+ to remove quantization noise?

Well I couldn't figure out where else to take my Denon esoterica questions so thanks to you guys for indulging me.

Thanks, John, that is a great illustration in your post. This digital processing stuff can be difficult to understand for guys like me who cut their teeth on vacuum tubes and resistors.
So, let's see if I'm getting this. Let's say the DSD analog->digital process produces a digital signal superior to that introduced in the initial digitization of analog->PCM. Let's say the DSD digital to analog process also produces an analog signal superior to that of PCM->analog. So staying pure DSD produces better AQ overall. Even if you convert the DSD to PCM in the AVR you have retained the advantage built in to the front end of the process. Therefore DSD->PCM does produce a "better" PCM. Thus when it goes through the DAC it is converted into a slightly better sounding analog in the end. That would make sense with what I hear. Whew.
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post #3595 of 5602
7/30/09 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

This digital processing stuff can be difficult to understand for guys like me who cut their teeth on vacuum tubes and resistors.

Guess that would make you SoundofMind but OldofBody?
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post #3596 of 5602
7/30/09 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Guess that would make you SoundofMind but OldofBody?

Don't make me smack you with my walker.
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post #3597 of 5602
7/30/09 at 6:28pm
Just throw your teeth at him.*

Sorry, couldn't help myself . . .

*NOT your gold teeth.
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post #3598 of 5602
8/3/09 at 1:57am
I hope this is on point, but the 989 is now selling on Amazon.com for $549 shipped! I don't know how long it is going to stay at that price, but it looked like quite a sweet deal so I thought I should give you the heads up... And yes, I pulled the trigger on one... I just couldn't help myself... Wifey might kill me when she finds out, but I'm ready to take the heat

I also had to pull the trigger quickly to save myself from agonizing too much over the choice between the 989 and the 2310 which was tempting me only because of the new sexy GUI... But it is done! 989 it is, and I'm at peace!
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post #3599 of 5602
8/3/09 at 5:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sahmen View Post

.. Wifey might kill me when she finds out, but I'm ready to take the heat

I also had to pull the trigger quickly to save myself from agonizing too much over the choice between the 989 and the 2310 which was tempting me only because of the new sexy GUI... But it is done! 989 it is, and I'm at peace!

So I guess if we don't hear from you we'll know it really was a killer deal!

Seriously, WOW. Congrats-that has got to be the best value I've ever seen on one of these. While you're savoring that sweet, sweet SQ you'll not bemoan our lowly OSD. Once you're all set up and dialed in, you hardly ever use the OSD anyway.
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post #3600 of 5602
8/3/09 at 9:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sahmen View Post

I hope this is on point, but the 989 is now selling on Amazon.com for $549 shipped! I don't know how long it is going to stay at that price, but it looked like quite a sweet deal so I thought I should give you the heads up... And yes, I pulled the trigger on one... I just couldn't help myself... Wifey might kill me when she finds out, but I'm ready to take the heat

I also had to pull the trigger quickly to save myself from agonizing too much over the choice between the 989 and the 2310 which was tempting me only because of the new sexy GUI... But it is done! 989 it is, and I'm at peace!

If you have the 989 setup, make sure you play one of her favorite movies or CD's and ask her if it sounds a lot better. She might agree with your judgment call.
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