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Transformers (Blu-ray) Official AVSForum Review - Page 2

post #31 of 152
Toshiba bug shows up when playing back AVC encoded discs.

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post #32 of 152
Thanks for the review, Ralph! I owned this movie on HD before HD DVD died and I sold all of my movies and equipment. I'll have to see if I can get a decent price on Transformers and pick it up soon.
post #33 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Ralph... thanks for the review...

It look forward to checking this disc out... One thing I'll be curious about is the appearent increase in LFE.... the .1 channel is the one that should be equal between lossy and lossless codecs regardless of the bitrate of the lossy encode... it is the one part of the track that takes almost no spece, is very easy to encode due to it's limited frequency response, and is not "lumped" in with the other channels in the encoder for percuptual analysis...

Can't wait to hear it... thanks again.

FM,
I can't think of one lossless and lossy comparison that didn't suggest the LFE was deeper and tighter. Makes you wonder how this happens.Given your expertise on the subject, I will default to you. I have noticed using my Anthem AVM50 with ARC, that some scenes have less LFE and others have more, but overall the bass is tighter and smoother. I will be very interested to try this disc and compare with my HD DVD as well the U571 as well
John
post #34 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

I thought the HD DVD was VC-1. The Toshiba A35 (and other) firmware upgrade has a bug that shows up when doing 24fps on VC-1 titles, like Transformers. At least I think it's VC-1. Anyway, whatever Transformers is, it produces the bug with the newer firmware in 24fps, which is why a lot of people did not upgrade.

It's AVC at 24fps that causes the problem.
post #35 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

FM,
I can't think of one lossless and lossy comparison that didn't suggest the LFE was deeper and tighter. Makes you wonder how this happens.Given your expertise on the subject, I will default to you. I have noticed using my Anthem AVM50 with ARC, that some scenes have less LFE and others have more, but overall the bass is tighter and smoother. I will be very interested to try this disc and compare with my HD DVD as well the U571 as well
John

One of the things that needs to be taken into consideratin is that it is sometimes hard to distinguish LFE if you are using bass management, which most users are.... one of the things that lossy encoders do, and to a lesser extent as the bitrates increase, is share frequency information common to both channels, which could impact the "depth" on LFE.... I'll be curious to look at the HD DVD vs. BR on the measuring stick to see what the difference is...
post #36 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by wej5541 View Post

This disc seems to prove that there is a limit to what increasing bitrate can do to picture quality since no reviews I have seen indicate any noticiable differences in video quality despite the BR having a higher bitrate.

i wonder if pq would still be indistinguishable tho had paramount decided to sacrifice video bitrate and include lossless audio on the hd dvd. it seems you have to reach a certain point in bitrate to get to where higher bitrate wont benefit the pq, but to get to that point lossless audio had to be omitted on the hd dvd. so far from the reviews that did comparisons there is a diff between the lossy and lossless tracks.

here's to hoping my brother's eD a2-300 will arrive before september 2nd.
post #37 of 152
To really bear out this "bitrate vs. pq" theory, I think we need to actually take a look/compare scenes where there actually is a bitrate "peak" in the encoding. That's when things are going to be stressed. Just noting the averages or looking at scenes where bitrate is "nominal" is certainly not where you would find differences, imo.

Naturally, no one is going to bother to go through the trouble (I'd expect)...but that is where the answer will live until the day it is discovered by someone who is looking in the right place for it.

...and for all it's worth, it may simply come down to something that isn't really tangible on our end, rather something that appears in the actual production of the encoding. Maybe the br encode was simply less trouble to execute, once it is allowed to take whatever bandwidth it needs for a given scene situation, whereas, the hdvd encode required a watchful eye to optimize the parameters scene-by-scene (which also opens the inevitable possibility that some scenes slip through w/o the necessary TLC treatment). Maybe the master that was approved for either encode, was already graded down to some degree as to make it easily fit into an hdvd profile, anyway Who really knows? Certainly, there are lots of possibilities.

Until then, there will simply be 2 groups of people- one group that needs to believe the copy they bought way back when it was in hdvd is the best one that will ever be, and the other group that is simply happy that the title can now be had on br and appears to exploit the format to its fullest in video and audio.
post #38 of 152
The only way to do a true "test" is to have a split screen or have the exact same equipment (except the players) showing the pictures side by side.

I would be willing to bet in double blind testing the results would be "inconclusive" for both the audio and the video
post #39 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

The only way to do a true "test" is to have a split screen or have the exact same equipment (except the players) showing the pictures side by side.

I would be willing to bet in double blind testing the results would be "inconclusive" for both the audio and the video

Or look at screen caps...like was done on The Mummy...which showed an increase in detail on the BD version on scenes where no DNR was applied.

Brandon
post #40 of 152
True, but screen caps versus live action are very different in the "real world."
post #41 of 152
Thread Starter 
Greetings,

Excellent discussion indeed. I would prefer that the topic not stray too far as most of this has been or is being discussed in the Transformers thread in the Blu-ray Software forum.


Cheers,
post #42 of 152
I only have one question..... How does Megan look on Blu-Ray?

J
post #43 of 152
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Remer View Post

I only have one question..... How does Megan look on Blu-Ray?

J

Greetings,

Like a high definition "Fox"........


Regards,
post #44 of 152
Thankyou Ralph for the review.
post #45 of 152
Excellent review Ralph. Couldn't ask for more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wej5541 View Post

This disc seems to prove that there is a limit to what increasing bitrate can do to picture quality since no reviews I have seen indicate any noticiable differences in video quality despite the BR having a higher bitrate.

Most of the educated HDM owners understands that lower bit rates could also produce excellent results but the point in keeping the bits higher is to mitigate the unknown video artefacts of any proportions that might occur when sufficient bits aren't supplied. I don't feel there is anything wrong in giving high bit rate treatments because we can at least safely assume that any artefacts that occur beyond the boundaries of higher bit rates are related to the source material.
post #46 of 152
Excellent review, not sure if Im going to double dip and buy it on blu or not. IF the bass has improved then I can only imagine it being subtle. I thought it was pretty good on HD DVD.
post #47 of 152
Great review Ralph. Now, I am really forward for this one.. A while ago I had the HD DVD version but one of the things that I remember that it didn't cut it was simply the lfe.
I watched the movie last summer in one of the THX movie theaters in downtown San Francisco and remember how powerful the bass was... Hopefully this BD is the version that i was looking for...
post #48 of 152
Can't wait to receive it! Thanks Ralph!
post #49 of 152
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalc3 View Post

Great review Ralph. Now, I am really forward for this one.. A while ago I had the HD DVD version but one of the things that I remember that it didn't cut it was simply the lfe.
I watched the movie last summer in one of the THX movie theaters in downtown San Francisco and remember how powerful the bass was... Hopefully this BD is the version that i was looking for...

Greetings,

Chris, don't expect a big increase in LFE output. What I think you will find is a better blend and noticeably deeper extension.

Regards,
post #50 of 152
A nice, honest review. Finally, a real comparison of the DD+ vs D-THD tracks.
post #51 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

Chris, don't expect a big increase in LFE output. What I think you will find is a better blend and noticeably deeper extension.

Regards,

Ralph,

I don't expect to hear an increase in the level of LFE. I am expecting to hear a cleaner and deeper bass.

Cheers,

Chris
post #52 of 152
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalc3 View Post

Ralph,

I don't expect to hear an increase in the level of LFE. I am expecting to hear a cleaner and deeper bass.

Cheers,

Chris

Greetings,

Great, I just wanted to make sure..

Cheers,
post #53 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

The only way to do a true "test" is to have a split screen or have the exact same equipment (except the players) showing the pictures side by side.

I would be willing to bet in double blind testing the results would be "inconclusive" for both the audio and the video

a combo player will solve this sorry can't help this OT post since i'm a proud combo owner

thanks again for this great review, can't wait to pick up the BD version.
post #54 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electone View Post

A nice, honest review. Unlike the utterly pathetic Blu-biased, in-your-face, review over at Blu-ray.com (why do I continue to visit that site anyways?).

Finally, a real comparison of the DD+ vs D-THD tracks.

+1
John
post #55 of 152
Thread Starter 
Greetings,

I would much prefer to stay on topic rather than comment extensively regarding opinions about a review/post from another site. I appreciate everyone's imput and cooperation.

Regards,
post #56 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by vpn75 View Post

Great review! I'll probably stick with my HD-DVD copy since I don't have a sub(live in an apartment) and there doesn't appear to be any noticeable improvement in PQ on the BD.

Same here. I havd an HD DVD copy of the movie. There is no reason to go to the Blu-ray version. If I was big on audio and had a good HDMI receiver then maybe I would consider it, but I only have a Yahama receiver that can accept optical.
post #57 of 152
Thanx for taking the time to discern the difference between the HD DVD and Blu copies.
post #58 of 152
well i am halfway thru the movie on bluray, and i'm blown away for how great it looks...

But what really really impressed me was the sound, holy crap that was good...

But sadly in dark parts of the movie which were quite a few.. it's very grainy..

I have switched settings in my ps3, stuff like RGB from limited to full and i didn't see much difference.. i'm quite disappointed about it... i had downloaded the hd version and it didn't look that bad (in the dark parts).

It looks almost like 300, i think the problem is that since there was a lot of digital work on this film like in 300 i guess there was a lot of grain because of it.

Just so people know, i have a 52" Samsung, 1080P and i have a 1.3HDMI cable and it really sucks for it to be so grainy, i have calibrated my tv with the bluray DVE (Digital Video Essentials) my contrast and brightness are quite good on every thing else, and i'm actually pretty pissed about the grainy parts but the bright parts are jaw dropping...

Anyhow, i just wanted to warn to the new owners of bluray to not think that there is something wrong with your settings, just try to not pay too much attention to the grainy parts.
post #59 of 152
Elo,

Grain is supposed to be there...it is part of film. Also, low-light situations accentuate grain.
post #60 of 152
Ralph,

You got the audio portion of this review spot on. The main difference between the HD DVD and BD I noticed after volume matching is the bass response on the BD. It's light years ahead of the HD DVD....there's definitely more depth in the bass response, like deeper frequencies are being heard. The HD DVD version, although very strong, was lacking this bass response.
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