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Transformers (Blu-ray) Official AVSForum Review - Page 3

post #61 of 152
9/2/08 at 6:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Kn0w View Post

Ralph,

You got the audio portion of this review spot on. The main difference between the HD DVD and BD I noticed after volume matching is the bass response on the BD. It's light years ahead of the HD DVD....there's definitely more depth in the bass response, like deeper frequencies are being heard. The HD DVD version, although very strong, was lacking this bass response.

Greetings,

Thanks for sharing your impressions Dr_Kn0w...


Cheers,
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post #62 of 152
9/3/08 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowrage View Post


Ralph - there's a scene at the end where Shia and Megan are talking about 'aren't you glad you got in the car' or something like that. And some of Megans lines have this weird 'MP3 sound quality to them' did you notice that? I think Jon Voight's endind monologue does the same thing.

I experienced this as well. I thought it was my system. I will go back again tonight and listen. Anyone else hear this? Ralph, have you gotten an opportunity to give it a second listen? I found it to be rather pronounced.

**Update, I checked this at lunch, it is at these two scenes very pronounced, almost like a crackle.
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post #63 of 152
9/4/08 at 7:27pm
Hey Ralph,

As you may have noticed, this mix has a lower volume than most other Blu-ray discs. I was wondering how much did you have to turn up your volume to reach you typical reference volume (in db's)?

For me, my typical volume for most movies is -20db but for Transformers I had to turn it up to -14db. I was wondering if you had to turn it up that drastically.
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post #64 of 152
9/5/08 at 1:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Kn0w View Post

Hey Ralph,

As you may have noticed, this mix has a lower volume than most other Blu-ray discs. I was wondering how much did you have to turn up your volume to reach you typical reference volume (in db's)?

For me, my typical volume for most movies is -20db but for Transformers I had to turn it up to -14db. I was wondering if you had to turn it up that drastically.

Greetings,

I don't recall this being that much of an issue. When I get a chance I will double check.


Regards,
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post #65 of 152
9/5/08 at 5:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Kn0w View Post

Hey Ralph,

As you may have noticed, this mix has a lower volume than most other Blu-ray discs. I was wondering how much did you have to turn up your volume to reach you typical reference volume (in db's)?

For me, my typical volume for most movies is -20db but for Transformers I had to turn it up to -14db. I was wondering if you had to turn it up that drastically.

Greetings,

Dr_Kn0w, I checked this out this morning and found no such issue in my setup. I watched it at the same reference point that I do for all of my viewing and it didn't sound any lower in volume than any other disc of its type.

Quote:


Originally Posted by shadowrage

Ralph - there's a scene at the end where Shia and Megan are talking about 'aren't you glad you got in the car' or something like that. And some of Megans lines have this weird 'MP3 sound quality to them' did you notice that? I think Jon Voight's endind monologue does the same thing.

Quote:


I experienced this as well. I thought it was my system. I will go back again tonight and listen. Anyone else hear this? Ralph, have you gotten an opportunity to give it a second listen? I found it to be rather pronounced.

**Update, I checked this at lunch, it is at these two scenes very pronounced, almost like a crackle.

Factor V and shadowrage,

I listened to both of these segments and they sounded fine. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary and the dialogue sounded clear.


Cheers,
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post #66 of 152
9/5/08 at 6:50am
Ralph,

Nice Review. I agree in terms of both PQ and AQ... For me it was difficult to see any difference between the BD and HD DVD version because I am using now the Pioneer 51FD and part of the improvement in terms of PQ might be coming actually from the player... In terms of the sound, the bass is now very clean and integrates perfectly with the rest of the mix.. I also agree with one of the members here, the volume is slightly lower than in any other BD but not by that much...

Cheers,
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post #67 of 152
9/5/08 at 7:29am
EDIT: I just got an email from Josh and I misinterpreted his post over at HDD. Sorry for the confusion.
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post #68 of 152
9/5/08 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

Dr_Kn0w, I checked this out this morning and found no such issue in my setup. I watched it at the same reference point that I do for all of my viewing and it didn't sound any lower in volume than any other disc of its type.





Factor V and shadowrage,

I listened to both of these segments and they sounded fine. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary and the dialogue sounded clear.


Cheers,

Thanks for checking.

Back to the lab for me then.
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post #69 of 152
9/5/08 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

Dr_Kn0w, I checked this out this morning and found no such issue in my setup. I watched it at the same reference point that I do for all of my viewing and it didn't sound any lower in volume than any other disc of its type.

Hi Ralph,

Wow, I think you're the first person to tell me they haven't had to turn the volume up at all while watching this movie. There's a huge thread in the Blu-ray software forum with many users having the same "issue" with the volume to varying degrees....
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post #70 of 152
9/5/08 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Kn0w View Post

Hi Ralph,

Wow, I think you're the first person to tell me they haven't had to turn the volume up at all while watching this movie. There's a huge thread in the Blu-ray software forum with many users having the same "issue" with the volume to varying degrees....

Are you decoding internally in the player or outputting at Bitstream? There are a number of discs that have low volume with decoding in the player and this may be one of those discs.
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post #71 of 152
9/5/08 at 9:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Kn0w View Post

Hi Ralph,

Wow, I think you're the first person to tell me they haven't had to turn the volume up at all while watching this movie. There's a huge thread in the Blu-ray software forum with many users having the same "issue" with the volume to varying degrees....

Greetings,

I read through it. I didn't see that many were having it but all I can report is what I am seeing here.

Cheers,
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post #72 of 152
9/5/08 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Are you decoding internally in the player or outputting at Bitstream? There are a number of discs that have low volume with decoding in the player and this may be one of those discs.

This could most likely be it.....I'm decoding within the player (PS3). I guess if I had a bitstreaming player and receiver I wouldn't notice this difference.
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post #73 of 152
9/5/08 at 6:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Elo,

Grain is supposed to be there...it is part of film. Also, low-light situations accentuate grain.

So your saying its suppose to look like **** in those spots?
I'm not saying it looks bad it just has a lot of dark scenes with a lot of grain. I would think it would look a little better in those scenes. Overall it LOOKS GREAT and sound even better!!
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post #74 of 152
9/5/08 at 8:08pm
They can get rid of the grain, but it has trade offs that will harm the picture in other places.
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post #75 of 152
9/5/08 at 10:35pm
I think I agree with the recent consensus about low volume on transformers blu-ray. I had to constantly turn up the volume to hear the effects during fights but as far as dialogue is concern its ok and still pretty clear but really I'm really frustrated about the fight scenes. It seems like the sound is far away and that the bass was not there. What's going on?

I have an Onkyo 805
Fronts are Full Band
Center at 150
Surround 70
Surround Rear 60
Sub is 80, the actual sub knob is at 80 should I turn it up to 120 and calibrate?
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post #76 of 152
9/5/08 at 11:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorneth1 View Post

I think I agree with the recent consensus about low volume on transformers blu-ray. I had to constantly turn up the volume to hear the effects during fights but as far as dialogue is concern its ok and still pretty clear but really I'm really frustrated about the fight scenes. It seems like the sound is far away and that the bass was not there. What's going on?

I have an Onkyo 805
Fronts are Full Band
Center at 150
Surround 70
Surround Rear 60
Sub is 80, the actual sub knob is at 80 should I turn it up to 120 and calibrate?

Three things...

1. Check and make sure night mode is off on your Onkyo.

2. Cross over you fronts... many around here think that even though their fronts are rated to go down into the 30's and 20's, they shouldn't use the sub for the heavy lifting.... there are very few around here that truly have speakers that are useable into the teens without strain, or have the rooms that are properly set up to handle low end like that from speakers at any kind of distance...

What kind of speakers and sub are you using?

3. Most importantly, in regards to your sub crossover, you should turn off/set to the highest value the crossover on the sub....if you have your center set to 150 right now, and the sub isn't getting anything above 80, you are missing a lot of information, which could also explain your anemic concerns.. your aren't hearing anything between 80-150, which for guns, hits, blasts, etc, is where a lot of information ends up in order to gain size in the sound... your center may need a cross over that size if it is small with out good low end support, but I suggest you set all of your speakers to 80Hz, and let your sub handle the rest.... see what it sounds like, but I think you'll be happy.
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post #77 of 152
9/5/08 at 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorneth1 View Post

I think I agree with the recent consensus about low volume on transformers blu-ray. I had to constantly turn up the volume to hear the effects during fights but as far as dialogue is concern its ok and still pretty clear but really I'm really frustrated about the fight scenes. It seems like the sound is far away and that the bass was not there. What's going on?

I have an Onkyo 805
Fronts are Full Band
Center at 150
Surround 70
Surround Rear 60
Sub is 80, the actual sub knob is at 80 should I turn it up to 120 and calibrate?

Interesting will be trying my copy tonight.
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post #78 of 152
9/6/08 at 7:12am
Hi FilmMixer,

Thanks for the input.

-Now, I don't think that my 805 had the night mode on but I will check again later.

-I'll have to learn more about cross-overs because like you said I might be losing a lot of information which can be really frustrating. I am using bose 301 for fronts, vcs-10 for center, 201 for rears and a klipsch ksw-12 for my sub. Ok, so your saying that I should turn the frequency knob to 120 in my sub? Right now its at 80 and audyssey has for for 80 as well. You are spot on about the not hearing the guns, blasts and etc...I feel like I missing something especially when I watched Rambo and now Transformers made it obvious. I will have a manual configuration for it and set it at 80 but I will wait for your response just to make sure.

Thanks
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post #79 of 152
9/6/08 at 7:16am
Franin,

Let me know what you think. The first check should be when blackout landed on base and started attacking. It sounded like it was far away and there was no bass and dialogue distinction.
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post #80 of 152
9/6/08 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorneth1 View Post

Hi FilmMixer,

Thanks for the input.

-Now, I don't think that my 805 had the night mode on but I will check again later.

-I'll have to learn more about cross-overs because like you said I might be losing a lot of information which can be really frustrating. I am using bose 301 for fronts, vcs-10 for center, 201 for rears and a klipsch ksw-12 for my sub. Ok, so your saying that I should turn the frequency knob to 120 in my sub? Right now its at 80 and audyssey has for for 80 as well. You are spot on about the not hearing the guns, blasts and etc...I feel like I missing something especially when I watched Rambo and now Transformers made it obvious. I will have a manual configuration for it and set it at 80 but I will wait for your response just to make sure.

Thanks

Set your sub as high as it will go... You can go into the setup on the 805 and change the L R's to small... I am surprised it set them to large..

Change all of the crossovers to 80, and see what you think... you might need to go higher on the crossover, but that should be a good starting point.
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post #81 of 152
9/6/08 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Set your sub as high as it will go... You can go into the setup on the 805 and change the L R's to small... I am surprised it set them to large..

Change all of the crossovers to 80, and see what you think... you might need to go higher on the crossover, but that should be a good starting point.

I agree that all speakers should be set to small and the LFE crossover set to 80 HZ. That's the THX standard, by the way. By using those settings your main speakers and surrounds won't have to strain for low frequencies, which your sub should be able to handle with aplomb. I haven't received the BD version of Transformers from BB yet so I can't comment about its soundtrack.
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post #82 of 152
9/6/08 at 12:47pm
Hi FilmMixer,

I just set everything to 80Hz and I'm liking the results already. Also, I have leveled the db settings for the speakers meaning they're all at 0db as far as speakers and sub are concern. Now for the sub which I haven't done yet, do you want me to turn the knob to 120Hz its at 80Hz right now. Will the internal settings override it though? Thanks.
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post #83 of 152
9/6/08 at 12:50pm
Filmmixer, is there a chance a lot of the LFE was mixed into the fronts, instead of the .1? Would explain why some are missing it.
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post #84 of 152
9/6/08 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorneth1 View Post

Hi FilmMixer,

I just set everything to 80Hz and I'm liking the results already. Also, I have leveled the db settings for the speakers meaning they're all at 0db as far as speakers and sub are concern. Now for the sub which I haven't done yet, do you want me to turn the knob to 120Hz its at 80Hz right now. Will the internal settings override it though? Thanks.

By not having your subwoofer's dial turned up to 120Hz, you are putting the bass through two filters, one in the receiver and the other in the subwoofer itself. Setting the subwoofer's dial to 120Hz ensures that the subwoofer is receiving all the possible information that your Onkyo feeds it without doubling down on the signal.

Also, Chris from Audyssey explained a little while back that the Low Pass Filter (LPF) setting in the Onkyo 805 should also be set to 120Hz. It does not affect the independent crossover frequencies of your five other speakers, but it can filter out information above 80Hz that is present in the actual LFE (.1) channel. Thus, LFE signals from 81Hz-120Hz may be completely thrown out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The LFE should always be at 120 Hz otherwise you are losing content from the LFE track on DVDs and HD content that is authored with content up to 120 Hz. Setting your crossovers at 80 Hz is a good start.

Link to the Quote Below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

If you can't defeat the lowpass in the sub, then you should set it to the highest setting as you correctly did.

The lowpass filter in the bass management system is for the separate LFE channel and is completely different from the crossover between the main speakers and the subwoofer. When you (or MultEQ) selects a crossover frequency for each speaker, a high pass filter at that frequency is applied to the signal and what passes through is sent to satellite speaker. At the same time, a low pass filter at that same frequency is applied to the signal and what passes through is sent to the subwoofer. In addition to the low frequencies from each channel there is a separate discrete LFE signal on the DVD that is also sent to the subwoofer. The lowpass filter you see in the menu is only applied to this separate signal.

Technically, this lowpass is not needed because the people who make the content should be following the spec and lowpassing the LFE content before it goes on the DVD. However, manufacturers are concerned about those not following that spec and put in their own lowpass filter for the LFE signal to prevent it from leaking into the main channels.

You should leave it at 120 Hz. Also, note that any internal settings of crossovers, levels, delays, etc. are ignored when MultEQ calibration is running so changing them before you run MultEQ has no effect.

Regards,
Chris
__________________
Chris
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post #85 of 152
9/6/08 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Filmmixer, is there a chance a lot of the LFE was mixed into the fronts, instead of the .1? Would explain why some are missing it.

It's not really that they mixed any "LFE" into the mains, just that there is a lot of low end information in the mains... the .1 is a discrete channel which takes effort (i.e. you have to bus to it directly, and usually end up synthesizing a lot of what you do send there..)..

With the mains, unless you get rid of something you don't want there, whatever is sent to that channel is what ya here...

Make sense?
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post #86 of 152
9/6/08 at 2:10pm
Thread Starter 
Greetings,

I think that this is great discussion and I am glad that some are able to resolve some of the technical issues they may have been having (thanks FilmMixer ). However this is discussion that has spilled over from the thread in the Blu-ray software forum and I would prefer that this thread be held more to discussion of the Transformers Review and topics related to impressions of the quality of the disc. I do realize that in this case there are extenuating circumstances for some users. I will leave this discussion in this thread but would appreciate any further technical related questions etc. be asked in the thread in the Blu-ray Software forum.

Thanks !
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post #87 of 152
9/6/08 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

I think that this is great discussion and I am glad that some are able to resolve some of the technical issues they may have been having (thanks FilmMixer ). However this is discussion that has spilled over from the thread in the Blu-ray software forum and I would prefer that this thread be held more to discussion of the Transformers Review and topics related to impressions of the quality of the disc. I do realize that in this case there are extenuating circumstances for some users. I will leave this discussion in this thread but would appreciate any further technical related questions etc. be asked in the thread in the Blu-ray Software forum.

Thanks !


Party pooper
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post #88 of 152
9/6/08 at 3:53pm
Guys, thanks for the replies. I will take your valuable input into consideration. Now onto actual transformers review?
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post #89 of 152
9/9/08 at 7:18am
Does that apply for the Onkyo 705 as well? So although I have my speakers set to 80Hz, I should set the LFE to the 120Hz? And this wont affect the settings I have for my main speakers? I better check that out.
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post #90 of 152
9/9/08 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

I think that this is great discussion and I am glad that some are able to resolve some of the technical issues they may have been having (thanks FilmMixer ). However this is discussion that has spilled over from the thread in the Blu-ray software forum and I would prefer that this thread be held more to discussion of the Transformers Review and topics related to impressions of the quality of the disc. I do realize that in this case there are extenuating circumstances for some users. I will leave this discussion in this thread but would appreciate any further technical related questions etc. be asked in the thread in the Blu-ray Software forum.

Thanks !

Oops! Sorry.

Anyhoo... I just watched my BD copy and the video is identical. I'm watching this on a 52" screen and there's a whole lot of grain on both the BD and HD DVD (which is exactly how the film looked the five times I saw it in theaters). So I'm happy this is a case of "if it aint broke don't fix it".

The audio, on the other hand has improved. But it's not a night and day change. Although the TrueHD track is superior (the bass is fuller and the sound somewhat less bright overall), I'd still call the DD+ reference quality.

The only reasons to get this release is if you don't have the HD DVD or you want a slight improvement in terms of audio. I definitely fit into the latter but YMMV.
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