Official Pioneer SC-05 and SC-07 Owners Thread - Page 61

Juan - The center speaker is center vertically on the grill and about 1/2" just behind the door. I ran the MCACC this morning with the front door down but is only helped marginally in the upper EQ bands. The photo attached was from the MCACC with the door down.

I'm starting to think that the issue is with the speaker itself, either defective or in the design.

Unfortunately my wife allowed me to play with this unsually room. The dining room was out of the question even though it would be excellent for the front sound stage. Maybe the next house.

Juan

I'll try that tonight.

maybe... but it would be HIGHLY unusual (unless you were in a completely treated room, and i mean COMPLETELY, and your speakers were flat to begin with) for mcacc (or audyssey, or whatever) not to do eq correction to your speakers... and in likelihood, given that you have the center speaker in a cabinet, the center is going to require more correction than the others... speakers really don't like that...

i feel your pain... my dining room would make a SUPERB home theatre room... swmbo put a stop to that idea right out of the box...

ccotenj,

I just moved the center speaker on top of the cabinet, laser aligned it to point at the microphone, ran mcacc, and definately have better sound and eq levels, see attached. Note that the photo is not taken at the sweet spot so the speaker alignement is misleading.

Are my eq levels unusually or should I send back the center speakers?

Edit - I noticed my home member name is different than the one from work. Fozzie Bear = Rowlf.

I discovered tonight that I prefer the acoustic EQ turned off on the "symmetry" MCACC mode. I still have the full band phase control on and standing wave. Also, I set the X-Curve to 0.5db just to take the edge off. Anyone else have theirs set this way or differently?

Is the HDMI Control worth that much? I tried to set it up with my Kuro, and while it seems to work fine - and displays volume and such on the TV, I am having a problem where it keeps switching the receiver to the wrong input (TV/SAT instead of HDMI 1) even when my harmony correctly turns in on to the right one initially...

I am thinking of turning off the control and just customizing the different inputs the 'old fashioned' way...

You need HDMI Control ON for the SC-07 and the Pioneer 05/51 to enable PQLS which really improves sound quality. I do not believe there the Kuro needs to be on to improve picture quality so I turned HDMI Control OFF on the Kuro. That way, I can listen to music without being forced to have the panel on as well. In addition, as you mentioned, it will prevent the "bug" where turning on the system always switches you to TV/Satellite instead of HDMI 1.

nope, i don't think there's anything wrong with it...

here's what mine look like for all 5 speakers... sorry about the crappy pictures...

I am a big fan of DVD-A, own ~30 Aix disks, may buy a current upscaling Oppo player so I can also decode SACDs, and expect to hear all that Dolby True HD will offer on BlueRay, and on Aix disks when Mark Waldrep produces audio-only hi-res Aix Records disks using Dolby True HD (he's going to do that so his disks will play on BR machines). So to read about this little revelation re the SC-07 is turning me off and causing second thoughts about buying an 07.
Will DVD-As, with 96 kHz sampling rate and 24 bit word length, sound worse on the SC-07 than they would on the below mentioned Yamaha AVRs and "plenty of other AVRs out there" that can decode a DSD stream directly to analog? Can anybody hear the degradation to 88.2K v. 96K or 192K? That is my central question. Will the difference be audible?

[quote=billincali;14922902]

It is a bit hard to believe however that an AVR such as the SC-07 can not decode a DSD stream to analog without PCM conversion, esp for the price and reputation of the Elite line. Isn't one of the new features of the current Pio DVD players themselves (Elite DV48 & DV58) the ability to output DSD over HDMI? Why make two out of three matching Elite AVR's (SC-05 & SC-07) aimed at high-end audiophile type people like us that won't handle the DSD stream in it's native domain that their own DVD players can now output and the only one that does costs $7K? The new Yamaha AVR's (RX1900 & RX3900) which use Burr Brown PCM1791A DAC's can both decode a DSD stream directly to analog as well as plenty of other AVR's out there. While I feel the SC-07 is a far superior AVR to the Yammy the Pioneer is not so "Elite" at all in this area of SACD reproduction.

While I realize that yes 9 out of 10 times you will want to roll the DSD into PCM for EQ, Bass Management, etc etc. It's more about the fact that the SC-07 can't decode the DSD directly to analog if I wanted to do so. Many lesser AVR's offer this option if the user so desires to take advantage of it and I would be one of them from time to time. The other thing that is a bit of a kick in the pants regarding all this for fans of "high end audio" is that if FilmMixer is correct the SC-07 downgrades the DSD stream to 88.2K PCM. Why in an AVR that has 192K/24bit DAC's would you downgrade the DSD stream to anything less than 192K/24 PCM? How about 96K even...but 88.2K...oy! Since the DSD stream is a 1Mhz signal and has no mathematical equivalent in the PCM world you should be able to down convert it to any PCM sampling frequency that you want, no? If not 192K why not 96K at least? It makes me wonder if the DSD isn't being down graded to 44.1 PCM for internal processing and then up-sampled back to 88.2K before output, why else settle on 88.2K? It makes no sense at all. Even DVD-Audio disc's at 96K/24 now have a higher reproduction sampling frequency than what is happening to the DSD stream inside the SC-07. Why not make the DSD downgrade to PCM at least the same sampling frequency as a DVD-Audio disc?

It's a bit of a head scratcher to me why an AVR such as the SC-07 or 05 that excel in almost every area of design fall down so badly on this one point which would seem to appeal to the exact market of people they are trying to sell these things to. If these were budget AVR's aimed at the average "joe six pack" that would be one thing, but they aren't. They are supposed to be the most top of the line, forward thinking, progressive, bad-ass AVR's out there aimed at AUDIOPHILES.

I will still be picking up an SC-07 because it is the best thing out there at the price point. It just baffles me that an AVR that oozes "high end" in design, components, construction, reputation and price point treats the most "high end" audio signal available in such a 3rd class way

QUOTE]

ccotenj - thank you for sharing and the reassurance.

no problem...

enjoy your new toy... i know that the rest of us are...

Well, last week I purchased the Elite 151FD display. Now I am wanting to pick up the SC-05 but have held off because of the 4 ohm thing.

My situation may be a little different than most beacause I will be using a pair of mono amps for the front channels. Short story-Critical two channel listening goes through a dediacted pre and a pair of mono amps which are bypassed to my current Anthem AVM50/MCA50.

So, with that said, the SC-05 will only be hooked up to the center (4 ohm) and a pair of surround (8 ohm) speakers.

My thinking is since I am not using the mains with the SC-05 amps, I won't be working its amp section very hard at all and shouldn't really have an issue with overheating.

Agree or disagree?

Edited to add...In the event anyone is curious as to why I would replace the Anthem AVM50/MCA50 with the SC-05........... I think the Anthem is overkill for my current needs. It is no longer needed for two channel listening ,and with the recent purchase of the 151FD, I don't believe the Anthem's Gennum scaler will be of much benefit to my (mostly) HD viewing.

Mark

Mark, with an separate on the mains, one 4 ohm center and 8 ohn surrounds, I think you will be totally fine. No worries!

At this price point no.... I highly doubt anyone spending $2000 on a receiver has the high end type of speakers (which would require oodles more power than this box has anyways) or golden ears type of mentality that they would hear a difference... It's an esoteric complaint about a relatively pedestrian product, IMO.

I understand Bill's comments, but it's what comes out of the speakers, in the end, that's important... if you are the type that can't sleep at night because of it, look elsewhere..

Sample rate becomes much more important during production and mixing than in reproduction... I dobut any of your AIX discs contain frequency information above 24kHz... capturing and maintaining a super high sample rate diminishes side band distortion and errors across the process.

Is your room so acoustically sound that you need no eq, time alignment or bass management?

At this price point, and compared to other products I've had in my theater in the last 12 months, this is the best sounding receiver I've heard, direct DSD or not.. and I have over 70 SACD's.

^FilmMixer, I understand you've had the SC-09 which seems to be a great Elite product as well. Even though the SC07 and 09 use the same Iceamps(assuming so anyway), how would you compare the two? Im very happy with my 07, however Im just curious as to how they stack up against each other. And also are you currently using the 07 as well in your setup?

Thanks for that, FilmMixer. I for sure do not have a "perfect" room with no need for eq, time alignment or bass management. 21' long, 16' wide, 12' vaulted ceiling, all tile, glass slider at one end of the room and opening at the other end of the room into my kitchen on the left and out into a "tunnel" into my entry-way on the right, with a three foot wall with a mirror to the ceiling between those two as you look down to that end of the room. Challenging, not perfect.

I'll bounce your comment that there is probably no frequency information above 24kHz in the AIX disks off of Mark Waldrep. I have no idea. What I do know is that the CD standard is 44.1 kHz sampling rate, 16 bit word length. The DVD-Audio standard is 96 kHz sampling rate and 24 bit word length, and 5.1 channels. I once found the DVD-A standard, the real stuff, on the net. It's a big long page of text. I THOUGHT at one time that Dolby True HD and/or DTS Master Audio hi rez was just the DVD-A standard with two extra channels in the rear. Silly me. Waldrep soon told me they are different standards and incompatable with DVD-A. As I say, Waldrep is getting ready to issue some of his past DVD-As but as 7.1 Dolby True HD disks.

The knowledgeable person above who comments about this "issue" with the SC-07 , and whom I quote above, says perhaps the 07 reduces a 196 kHz signal to 44.1 and them doubles things back up to 88.2. Remember, I am an accountant, so what do I know. But last night while watching "Dial M for Murder" it occured to me that if you take a 192 kHz signal, sample it somehow and reduce it to 44.1 kHz, and then double that back up to 88.2 kHz, you must be losing a lot of the texture and detail in the original signal.

Just speculating here, but if you have the following values in the original signal which you are capturing by sampling 192,000 times per second:

15, 12, 9, 4, 3, 7, 17, 11, 7, 6, 14, 13 (i.e. 12 values)

and you now sample that signal 44,100 times per second, maybe you get these sorts of values:

15-----9-----3----17-----7----14

You then double that signal's frequency up to 88,200 kHz and get this:

15, 15, 9, 9, 3, 3, 17, 17, 7, 7, 14, 14.

You have 88.2 kHz all right, but a lot less detail. Just speculating here, folks. Please tell me I'm wrong.

What I am sure of is that DVD-As sound a whole lot better than CDs. So anything which suggests a dropping of 96 kHz to 44.1 kHz scares the willies out of me. But you clearly have a much better understanding of this than I do, you say the sampling rate is much more important in production and mixing than in reproduction, and that the 07 is the best sounding receiver you have heard in your theater in a year.

One little question: were any of the other AVRs you have had one of those mentioned above as not having this little issue. (See the original post a page or two back where he names several). If you have had, and if the SC-07 sounded better than the other one did, then this characteristic of the 07 is not a deal-breaker for me.

And finally, SACDs played through an SC-07 sound a whole lot better than a CD, right?

Thanks for allaying my fears on this issue. I was probably not alone in that.

For the money, I think the SC07 is just great.... and yes, it's what I have now, and I don't miss the SC09 one bit (ok, except for the LCD screen.)

Fresno, you seem to be confusing DVD-A and SACD. Your DVD-As will play exactly as recorded. They're recorded in PCM and play back the same way. SACD is a totally different format (DSD) that, unless you own some SACD disks, you don't need to worry about.

Then you will need the DSD stream converted to PCM for EQ, room correction and bass management... there isn't any product made that can do that with a DSD stream.


For full disclosure my wife used to work for Mark at AIX, and I have a bit of a negative feeling towards him, his business practices and his company... that being said......

I don't know how Mark can claim that TureHD and DVD-A aren't similar in standars... while not the same, they are both based on lossless Meridian packing..

I don't think anyone can dispute that... incompatible yes, but very similar.

All three formats (DVD-A, TureHD and DTS-HD MA) encode PCM streams and decode them back into the same PCM that went into the encoder....

And they can all do 192kHz.....

I think you are confusing sampling rate with the frequency response.. it's a principal called the Nyquist frequency...

The idea is that an audio system can reproduce a highest frequency equal to half that of the sampling rate...

Hence, CD's can reproduce frequencies up to 22kHz (human hearing goes from 20Hz - 20,000Hz.)

Where raising the sampling rate comes into effect is in the capture and manipulation of audio data (this is a little controversial too..) But the effect is, basically, that when you up the sampling rate, even on a 1kHz sine wave, you decrease artifacts called sideband distortion.. while not audible, those anomalies can cause the image to collapse and can increase as audio gets processed during the production process.... I believe that Mark goes straight from source to master with very little steps in between...

So while there maybe frequencies above 20kHz (on CD's too) you cannot hear them, but they play a part in how transparent a recording is.


Your thinking is right, but what is thrown out is data that is outside the range of human hearing... so no audible data will be lost if the sampling rate is at least 44.1kHz or higher.. and it's not the values that get lost, but the in between values that go away..

Lets say you have a sample rate of 20Hz.. over three seconds you record a sound and the data points are measured on a 5 Hz waveform.. I am leaving out all of the data points for brevity (there should be 60).

1.....2.....3.....4.....5.....4......3.....2.....1.....2.... .3......4.....5....4.....3....2....1....2.....3.....4

Same sound, half the sampling rate 10Hz... (should be 30 data points)

1....3....5....3...1....3...5.....3...1....3

The converter knows that the value is going up and it must be between 1 and 3.. so the voltage of the output waveform will go through the 2 without the need for a discrete data point.... if you up convert the 10Hz sample to 20Hz, it will create that 2 and not repeat the 1.

Also, the DSD doesn't get decoded to 192kHz, down to 44.1 and then up to 88.2.... I have never heard of that, and don't assume that the SC07 does that..

The best SACD player I've heard is the PS3... it converts all DSD to 88.2 PCM..


I stand by my opinions, but know that I need eq and time alignment... the 5308 and 4308 had direct modes for DSD but those receivers didn't sound as good without heavy eq...

I'm not saying $2000 isn't a lot of money... but the SC07 offers so much more in terms of audio quality than anything close to it's point, I think people are getting hung up on the fact that they might be losing a high end feature on a mid line receiver... there are other receivers around this price point that may have it (both the Denon's mentioned are more expensive, don't know about the Yamaha's..).... but if audio quality is your main concern, even with SACD, I can't recommend any other product at this price point.

^+1 I agree for the price the receiver is top notch and is money very well spent. The SQ is to die for, I cant stress it enough. Every since Ive heard 05,07, I recommend them. The 09 of course applies, however your spending at a premium. Im overjoyed with it, personally. It looks freaking fantastic too, ok ok ok enough already, Im going to fire mine up(SC-07) and play alittle.

Does anyone know if HDMI control on the SC-05 will work with Mitsubishi DLP TVs? I have a Mitsubishi WD-65731 DLP TV and would really like to see the volume and mute from the SC-05 on the TV display. I have not been successful following the instructions in the manual for the SC-05, which are quite ambiguous, IMHO. The manual for the TV is just as bad, it does not mention HDMI control directly at all, but does say SimPlayHD certified. Any help would be great. Thanks!

Jim

Let me rephrase my question properly! Is there any way at all to get the sc-05 to display the volume and mute on my screen attached to the sc-05 HDMI output?

HDMI control is pretty new, my Pio plasma is not even 2 years old and it does not have it, so chances are your Mits does not either.

No one has chosen to tackle my question. So I take it that the answer must be "No, you're not missing anything, this $2000 receiver CAN'T do that". I sure miss my 49TXi..............................

You can run the MCACC, copy it to every memory slot, edit the SW for a particular input then name that memory slot EQforCD, EQforPS3, or whatever.

That's not what you asked but is a way around it. I honestly don't know if it will just remember per input, as I've always just saved an additional MCACC setting.

How do you name the saved MCACC memory with a custom name? My SC-07 firmware revision just lets me scroll through a list of about 5 or 6 preset choices (Music, Movie, etc.). Again, maybe I'm missing something.

Page 54 of the manual..

That's the way it works.. there are no custom names.

Well, I'm tackling the question but I'm not coming up with any good work-arounds. I think some of us (maybe most of us?) are happy with the SQ on HT with no modifications of the base MCAAC. What we want to do is to customize sound processing and EQ for our music inputs only. It looks to me like the only thing available is the REVERSE of what what we want: the ability to select a memorized "Pure Direct" setting for our music sources...

For now, I've programmed an MCAAC button on the Harmony and I use it to manually select my preferred setup. If there were a dedicated remote command to reset MCAAC to "off" or "Memory 1", then you could program in the string of keypresses needed to automate MCAAC selection per chosen Activity. But in the absence of any command that will anchor the MCAAC selection I don't see how to link an input choice with a specific MCAAC setting. Frustrating. Such a basic need, I would think...

Can you show the hz or kb / sec. a multichannel sound?

for example in DD or DTS??

thanks

Are you talking about lossless codecs? The answer to that is no.

On 99% of most films on BR, the core DTS tracks are 1509 and DD are at 640... 99% of them are at 48kHz...

There.. now you don't need a display.