Official Pioneer SC-05 and SC-07 Owners Thread - Page 13

The two main advantages would be a) the potential for a slightly better picture and b) one wire for both audio & video.

I am not a music listener but I have a couple of live DVD's that are DD 5.1. I just took a break from work and listened to RATM live in L.A. and it sounded great. I also tested this music DVD it on my 4308 prior to selling it and to me, there is really no comparison. The SC-07 sound much much better. I am sold. Did I mention how much I like this receiver? The audio from this receiver blocks out all of its shortcomings to the point where I don't even notice them. I can't wait to listen to movies in DD HD and DTS HD.

Do you think there's any difference in sound quality between the 05 and the 07?

Not exactly sure which auto setup u mean, MCACC or Velodyne's.
Since MCACC doesn't EQ the sub output, you still want to use the DD's EQ. It gets complicated, but I've checked with Curt at Velodyne and he confirmed I was on the right path.

IIRC, here's the steps I did -
My front L/R's are full range so MCACC sets them to Large.

1. With Velodyne sub volume at its normal default setting and its internal X-ver turned OFF, run Auto MCACC for all modes: Symmetry, All Channels Adjust, Front Aligned.

2. Checked speaker settings: my front L/R's are large & MCACC used 80 as my global X-over. If yours are all small, then your steps will be a bit less complicated than mine.

3. Turned off Pioneer phase control, standing wave filters. Note: This does have an effect on bass response curve & I haven't confirmed which is best, to adjust sub's EQ with them on or with them off. Curt didn't have much to say on this.

4. With front channels turned on & surround/center channels off, review Velodyne's bass response display at its default volume. This measures combined bass of my "full-range" fronts + the sub.

5. Adjust DD parametric EQ for flattest response.

6. Turn on phase control & standing wave & reviewed how bass response changes with each on engaged vs turned off. Tweak EQ if needed.

I recorded all my MCACC EQ settings before I adjusted the sub. And I did re-run auto MCACC, not knowing if there would be a difference. It turned out there wasn't.

IF you change the sub's volume, and re-run MCACC, it WILL change the sub's calibrated dB output level.

The question I have had is how to compensate for the phase control & standing wave filters. If you adjust sub EQ with them off, they can alter the response when turned on and vice versa.

Curt at Velodyne told me 2 things -
-----They seem to have the biggest problems working around Audyssey
-----Don't get too hung up on trying to get the "perfect" calibration & just enjoy the bass!!

Hope this helps you in your quest for *Audio Perfection*

ss9001
Steve

I'm gonna guess no. Both AVRs use the same power, so the amps are probably the same (even though one is rated at 10 more watts). Both have ICE power. They are in essence the same unit as far as sound/functionality goes.

I agree, there probably isn't a difference based on a prior post regarding the voltage stated on the back of both receivers being the same.

Thanks for the clarification ss9001. I guess I meant that in the Velo manual, it stated that if you are using an auto eq set up from a receiver, the crossover should be turned off I believe. I am going to try what you have done when I have time.

Thanks guys, you've pretty much confirmed what I've thought.

Are you saying that not all changes will appear onscreen? It would be annoying if something appears on the screen, interrupting a broadcast, every time a setting changes. However, something like the change of input is important to display. It does not display this change?



Is this proprietary compatibility an anti-trust issue like Microsoft?



I like the amber better. It's different like BMW, while white is too Sony and looks cheap. Like you said, subjective.

No, not on non-Pioneer displays.


No... the processors aren't designed with an overlay video generator like other manufacturers.... my understanding is that Pioneer has designed the video section so that it keeps the video clean, partially due to the lack of solutions that work properly with color space continuity, etc.. so that's also the reason they don't upconvert HDMI sources.

So, they have devised a way, through SR+ and HDMI CEC, to use the displays video generator to display such information via control metadata that they developed.

If the receiver was actually able to create these graphics but chose only to allow them to be displayed on their products, that would be a different story.. as it stands, that isn't the way it works...

I was all excited when Pioneer said the SC-07 had the HDMI Jitter Reduction- Burr Brown that was supposed to make CDs sound like 96 kHz, 24-bit word length hi rez DVD-As. Then I got the impression that for it to do that you had to use a current, and upscale, Pioneer player to play those CDs on. I read that in Pioneer literature. Anyone else have that impression? Edit: I see that you need to play the CDs on a hi-end Pioneer BlueRay player and need to use HDMI between it and the 07 to get this Jitter Reduction with CDs.

I'm hot for the SC-07. But here is something that bothers me. I found this on AVS somewhere: "Bi-polar output device amps are not as musical as MOSFETS, but have more power when needed". Which is the SC-07, I wonder?

I am still thrilling to my big Tandberg 2075 stereo receiver. Tandberg was a big name in top-notch receivers in the 70s. All were made at the Tandberg Radiofabrique factory in Oslo, Norway. It just blows me away with the SQ, even after 32 years. It has never been opened by anyone (i.e. no repairs), and is simply great. I had a very famous makers' flagship receiver here for 10 days in June, 2008, and the SQ was very obviously inferior to that of the Tandberg. It sounded harsh.

I believe MOSFET was an acronym from the 70s, so my fear is that the Tandberg has MOSFETS and the Pioneer and other big names now use "the bi-polar output device amps" mentioned desparegingly above. Would one of you electronic engineers clear that up for us, please? Do you even agree with the assertion that MOSFETS sound more musical in the first place, and, if you do, does the SC-07 use MOSFETS?

Edit- Google mosfets. You'll get a snootful of information. They are still huge. Might want to go get an EE degree before you start reading.

SC-07 should be class D amp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switching_amplifier

That of course can be debated to death, as the ICE Amp technology is relatively new to the market I am sure there will be more comparisons down the road, I have owned Mosfet Amps, Class A, Class A/B it will be interesting as my Pioneer Elite 07 showed up last night, I will unpack it tonight and give it a good go around!

I can't comment on how the 07 sounds yet, because mine hasn't shipped yet, but everything I have read online is that the 05,07,and 09 are very musical and are just as good as some mid-level separates. CD quality is supposed to be excellent making cds sound just as good as SACD. I know there is some hyperbole and over-enthusiasm in all such reviews, but I have high hopes for the quality of sound coming from these new receivers. I know it will be light years better than what I have now that is sure.

Well, as I said in another thread, ICEpower can't be too bad if companies like BelCanto, Mark Levinson, PS Audio and Jeff Rowland are using it. Maybe it's not the best you can buy at any price but I'm pretty sure it doesn't suck.

And yeah, the old MOSFET/bipolar argument doesn't apply to Class D switching amps like the 05 and 07. That would be a discussion for the 01 and 03.

I'm pretty sure the last few generations of Elite receivers have all been Class D designs, starting with the 72 and 74, but the 05/07/09 are the first Elite receivers with a Class D design using ICEpower modules.

After I posted up above the quote about "MOSFETS sounding more musical than bi-polar output device amps", I found some good discussion. Before this current "07 and 05" thread was started by CHP_VR, you were all posting in a thread under amps, receivers and processors entitled "SC-07, SC-05, VSX-03TXH, VSX 01TXH.." It is now at page 5 under amps, receivers and processors.

IN THAT thread, go to ITS page 5. Look about a quarter of the way down the page. Find a post by TDI Driver- The Speaker Shop- in Youngstown, OH. He is answering an inquiry and he starts out with "Stew, thanks for your question".

The questioner has a Pioneer Elite VSX-56TXi receiver, 3 1/2 years old, with no HDMI, of course, and TDI Driver says this:

In explaining to "Stew" why Stew's VSX-56TXI sounds so good, he says

"The 5x series was the last of the Elite MOSFET designs before the switch to bipolar receivers. IMO, the 1018 and the 01 will be a step back in amp stage from the 56 as the power stage is lighter and the capacitors smaller. To get the best upgrade from the 56 go to the 05 or 07".

He does not say that the 05 and 07 are better than the MOSFET design used by the 5x series and those prior. He doesn't even say they are as good as the MOSFET receivers. He just says that to get the best upgrade from the 56- and that could be because you would be upgrading to an HDMI receiver, to go to the 05 and 07.

If you are reading this, TDI Driver, I would be most grateful if you would weigh in here on this. Are the ICE amps in the 05 and 07 as musical as the MOSFET amps in the 5x series and prior?

And I have to agree with you Catapult that the fact that those top-line amp makers are using ICEpower is a strong recommendation. I know from nothing about class D amps and admit it, in fact, proclaim it so you'll all know just how ignorant I am about this. GOOD and ignorant. So please let's hear it from those who know what MOSFET amps sound like and can compare that with how the 05 and 07 sound.

To me, it's all about how it sounds. I have long felt that receiver makers cram loads of bells and whistles into their products and shout a lot about all that, when what counts in the end is how they sound. Maybe they think that if they don't really sound so great, they can sell them with all the extra BS features they pile in. And you DO see the fixation on bells and whistles in all this discussion. It works! People get to favoring a receiver or company because it has this or that room correction algorithm, when what counts in the end is "how does it sound!" and its the amps that determine that, largely.


Catapult- So the Pioneer 5x series receivers were not class D amps? I do not know. Apparently they were not. So then class D amps don't come as either MOSFET or bipolar? They are neither, apparently, right?


One tiny extra thought- I called the AVS store a month or so ago re the Marantz AV 8002. He told me they don't carry Pioneer Elites. I was telling him about my Tandberg, and he said a lot of people are into vintage amps and vintage receivers. Last night I found a big website devoted that them. People really get into them- including into tube amps- and a big reason is- surprise!: How they sound.

In the past class D amps have not been very good for audio. They've been around forever and have been a tease because they are efficient and can output a great deal of power. B&O seems to have cracked the code to get them to work well in an audio set up. If you read the whole section on amps on Wiki you will get some more info on all of this.

I still have not heard one and will await the ability to audition. I did a very lengthy audition with a Denon 5308 and was impressed but not blown away. I'm also condsidering the new Arcam and NAD HD stuff. Arcam uses a AB amp with a G amp, I think NAD does the same thing. The AB & G is efficent and has a very low noise level.

I want to be blown away and hope Pioneer can do this. Based on the reviews I think this may be possible.

I want to thank all of you that have received the new 05 or 07 for the reviews and information. One thing I would appreciate, and I think others would, is what receiver have you replaced so we have a better idea of what your comparison is based on. I have an Integra 8.8 and I am very interested in one of these new Pioneers. I just got the Pioneer 51 blueray player and hope to be getting a Kuro in the future. The 51 is my first blueray player and I am quite impressed. My main interest is Audio. Thanks

I just opened my 07 up tonight, nice looking beast! Well technically I replaced my 94 Elite, but I sold the 94 too quickly and picked up a HK 254 as a temp receiver which I was also impressed with on the Audio side. I was however using external Amps with my last two receivers and this will be the first time in a long time that I have actually used the receivers internal Amps.. Well back to hooking mine up!!

^^^
Garman awaiting your report as I also run Dynaudio speakers. The 5308 I auditioned needed an outboard 200watt Mac amp to sound good. The 5308 was driving Thiel speakers which have a very similar 4ohm load as the Dynaudio. Used the Mac amp to drive the two front mains. 5308 could then handle the rest of the 6.1 set-up with ease.

*It probably took a dozen tries going through the set-up menus but I resolved the sub problem this morning. I failed to make a change in the BDP-05 audio set-up menu; I had not changed 'dolby digital' to 'HDMI.' I still do not understand though, the situation mentioned in par 3. on my initial post for the SC-07. However, it does not seem to affect anything now.

*Ken Ross and CHP_VR thanks for your responses on the HDMI.

*For anyone interested, here are some comments on the Auto MCACC procedure: (The SC-07 defaults to 0 dB reference level when the test tones begin) I used this initially and it did a fairly good job for setting the dB level for each of the speakers; the distance measurement was also fairly accurate. The one exception in both calcualtions was the subwoofer: sound level was significantly incorrect and the distance measured was 18 feet when the actual distance was 7 feet.

*I then used the Radio Shack meter to set the levels manually to 75db and gave a slight boost the center channel and of course, the SVS sub (the 140 lb gorilla sitting in the corner).

*So, at this point everything is working fine!

Gotta' go wake up the gorilla...

-G

A question for anyone with an SC-05 or SC-07. Do these receivers have a 'trim' or 'level' control per input source? In other words can you equalize the volume for varying input signal levels.

Also can lip synch be adjusted at a fixed level per input? I can't seem to find this info in the manual. If not, is a manual lip synch adjustment a parameter that can be loaded into an MCACC preset when you have not gone through the MCACC setup (even if you load nothing else but your manual adjustments into that preset)?

Not sure if that makes any sense.

Does anybody know if Pioneer's ICEpower amp is based on the ASH7 series? How about Rotel's new ICE receiver? The reason I'm asking is because the "all channels driven" spec is rather poor on this all-in-one home theater module.

http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com...tions/theater/

Also (off topic), does anybody know of a product that utilizes the ASX2? This new module is supposed to be a significant improvement over previous iterations. Most ICEpower amps that I know of use the ASP and/or A series.

Edit: I guess these new receivers must utilize the ASH7 -- individual modules would cost way too much (Rotel's RMB-1077 amp uses 5 x ICEpower250A and 2 x ICEpower250ASP, but is priced at $2500). I was psyched about these new ICEpower receivers, but now I'm not so sure. SC-07/SC-05 @ 65 watts/channel all channels driven. Rotel's new RSX-1560 even worse @ 25 watts/channel all channels driven. Might have to stick with a class AB receiver.

I have reviewed the manual for the SC-05/07 and have not been able to find a reference for the functionality of being able to upgrade the firmeware. Does anyone know if the firmware can be updated on these AVRs by the consumer?

Don Barar

That number is incorrect. They are rated at 630 and 700 watts total, however you want to divide it up between the channels.

No you cannot. Must be sent to serviced.

So far from the test I have done, no issues at all driving a 4 ohm speaker. I think there is a internal setting you need to adjust via the menu which I haven't done yet. Tomorrow when wife and kids are going I will really crank it up and put it through it's paces. So look for a mini-review tomorrow on how this receiver holds up to some demanding speakers...

billybob0405: Are you sure? As the 84/92/94 had to be done via a Pioneer service center, they came to my house to upgrade my 84, took them about 45 min and they where out of here. I would be very surprised
they didn't change that... But hopefully they got it right this time around....

Here is my correspondence with customer support:


>
> FirstName:Bill
> LastName:Rickert

> Inquiry:I am interested in the new SC-05/07 AVR's. My concern is with the
> firmware update process. Is it true that firmware updates must be made at
> a service center? or can the user make such upgrades?



> Currently, yes, it is true that firmware updates are only performed at the
> service centers.
>
> Thank You,
>
> Deborah
> Customer Service Representative
>

Date: 06/09/08
To: customer.support@pioneerservice.com
Subject: Re: RE:Feature and Specification|A00001|4177392100 [#1190821]

When you say "currently", are you including the sc-05/07?



Yes, and by currently, I mean regarding the procedure, not any particular model.

Thank You,

Deborah
Customer Service Representative