Official Pioneer SC-05 and SC-07 Owners Thread - Page 296

femi,

FWIW, one of the local home theater - audio dealers in Atlanta is closing & according to his web site has a demo SC-07 & SC-05 for sale. I don't know how the prices compare.

For the record, I have never worked there but have dealt with the owner, Ed, on buying Magnepan speakers and some audio gear. It's Sound & Cinema, Alpharetta. Ed is a nice guy & its a shame he's closing. another victim of the economy, I guess. You might want to give him a call if you are still having problem locating a new one. He also may agree to help get you a new one, worth a shot.

ss9001
Steve

Oye! Toots horn.... There is one here.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbcla...do=ad&id=10228

They will pry my dead cold fingers off my 09, well at least until the 10 comes out.

Ray:

He's in Atlanta and your ad on the AVS Classifieds says "local pickup" only. Perhaps if you change that you might find some takers. I imagine there aren't many in Corona/Riverside/Rubidou/Mira Loma right now with our lovely economy.

I nearly came to see you for that 09 when it was posted last month but it was over budget.

I am glad to see we have another source for the 07 and 09s.

This is the last 07 I have with no possibility to get anymore as stock is now dried up. I sure hope they announce a successor to the 07 that will not be a step backwards but am feeling a little leary as not one peep has come out about new product.

And the new BD players are out. Supposedly the BDP23 with the multichannel PQLS needs a new receiver to use it. There's nothing on Pioneer JP site to suggest new ones are ready to go.

But dwindling inventory may be a sign they're getting ready.

I just hope they aren't planning on replacing the SC-09 this soon. That would not be typical of them - plus I've blown my 2009-2010 electronics budget on Pioneer products already I will take a hardware-firmware upgrade though if they offer one.

ss9001

FWIW when I visited 6ave Electronics, the salesman showed me their inventory, in the computer, on the SC-07's and during the height of their SC-07 name your price sale, they had 547 SC-07's alone. They were all in the warehouse and not in their 15 or so stores. Not so sure how many they have now. I would call them and see if they are willing to sell at a low price. With that many they are going to have to dump these things pretty soon.

I just bought a SC-05 for my Dad and was looking to get an inexpensive 5.1 home theater speaker package (~$500 to $600 if possible) for him since he's not an audiophile.

The reason why I bought the receiver for my Dad was that it was an incredible deal. I originally thought this was a pretty straightforward thing and tried shopping for speakers that handled up to 130W. A person at Best Buy asked me if the SC-05 output was RMS or not. I told him I did not recollect it being advertised as 130W RMS.

After some web surfing, he couldn't find whether it was RMS or not, but he explained the 130W must be implying RMS given the class of receiver this is.

So as a noob, what is the absolute minimum requirement I need to follow so as to not blow any speakers through this receiver?

The owner's manual states for the amplifier section for continuous power at 8 ohms that the channels get 140W. At 6 ohms it is 180W. Then in parenthesis it states 130W at 8 ohms.

My Dad doesn't have house parties, but he may occasionally turn the volume up for a good action or sci-fi flick. Any words of wisdom on properly matching a speaker to this awesome receiver is greatly appreciated.

^^
Speakers are far likely to be damaged by not enough amp power than too much. If the amp is too small, and volume is high enough, the amp could be driven into clipping & the resulting signal distortion could blow or damage tweeters.

You'll be just fine with the SC-05 especially if his speakers are rated at 130 for 8 ohms. That's a pretty normal load for amps.

There are owners of inefficient speakers like Magnepans, which are "rated" for 250 watts typical use, that routinely drive them with 500 or more. They need lots of power, the more the better to sound their best.

It would be nice if all receiver & amp companies still used RMS watts as their spec, but that means they have to publish lower numbers so many times they don't or don't say at all. 130 watts RMS could be published as a much higher number if its peak or only rated at 1kHz. Pioneer doesn't specifically say RMS & my guess its some hybridization. I haven't seen a company spec say RMS in a long time. Pioneer's amp ratings for the Elites are typically pretty on the money real world. If your dad is going to hookup a full 7.1 system, the real world per channel power for all channels will be less than the 130. If he hooks up only stereo, he'll get more than the rated max power per channel. It's limited by the internal power supply.

Without getting too technical, I hope this helps.

ss9001

Don't worry about it.

The SC-05 power rating is RMS (for lay purposes the same as the FTC standard), but speaker power ratings are not very meaningful. And even if they were, chances are your dad will rarely exceed 10 watts on peaks, even on his sci-fi flicks. (I almost never do.) 10 watts RMS would probably drive him out of the room (an average of roughly 100dB, like a printing press or a loud car horn).

You can safely use the SC-05 with any speaker you are likely to consider (alhough it truly deserves something better than a $500 set ).

+1
Orb Audio, a frequent advertiser on this forum, makes as good an inexpensive set as there is - either their Mod 1 or Mod 1 plus.
I have nothing to gain by recommending them. Briefly owned an Orb Mod 2 center speaker connected to my SC 05 and for the price it was quite sweet. Ended up staying with a higher end speaker, but beyond the $$ of OP.
The MCACC will make the best of even inexpensive speakers (like my surrounds ).

I think you misunderstand my question.... I wasn't asking whether or not the SC-05 is a sufficient receiver for some hypothetical speakers.

I got my Dad the SC-05 already. He needs speakers. He won't know anything exotic outside of what Best Buy or Wal-Mart may sell.

That being said, I have these speakers laying around and it sounds like you're saying they're perfectly safe to turn on the SC-05. Is this correct?

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...uctId=11035267

Do you mean any speaker (regardless of maximum wattage)? I have a set of Sony SA-VE535H home theater speakers I could give him, but they are rated at a max of 120W.... a little shy of 130W.

Not to mention if the receiver is rated for a max of 130W in 7.1, doesn't that mean the receiver will output more per channel at 5.1 (which is all that my Dad is wanting to run)

I totally understand that the receiver deserves something far better than a $500 set of speakers. But keep in mind I was in a position to choose between a receiver whose MSRP was $800, or I could have gotten a receiver whose MSRP is $1,800 but got it for $800. Which would you do? Regardless of which receiver is purchased, my Dad's target price is $500 for home theater speakers... maybe up to $700... but absolutely nothing more than that.

But if we're only talking 10W, you're basically telling me that wattage rating on speakers is pointless and that any speaker I buy will not likely be blown on this receiver (if I understand you correctly).

Sorry I misunderstood your original question.

Yes, those speakers will be fine with the SC-05

ss9001

That's a good practical way to say it. Even at peaks that approach the amp's rated power, the power is only momentary. The speaker set you linked to also includes a powered sub, so low bass which sucks the most power, will be taken off the receiver's amp load & rest of the speakers won't see most large power peaks.

Actually most of the time it is quite hard to blow speakers. I've only seen it once, when I was in college a long time ago....guy blew his Bose 901's (Bose was a different speaker co. back then - the 901's actually were well thought of) by feeding them an oscilloscope signal.

Your dad will be getting a nice setup thanks to you. If he decides in the future to upgrade speakers, he'll be ready with the SC-05

ss9001

it doesn't matter if the amp is rated at 1000w and the speaker is rated at 5w...

amplifiers don't blow speakers... people turning the volume knob too far clockwise on the amplifier blow speakers...

this is quite true... especially once you get past a certain age...

the only exception to this rule are the car guys who like to bump... they manage to blow subs on a regular basis, but that's usually through stupidity...

Except for Bose because they blow even before they are hooked up to anything.

LOL... thanks... I had it before. Just trying to walk (in terms of speakers) before I have him running. You'd think that most any speakers would have a warning of what not to do, so a lack of one should be comforting to know.

Ah, so is the power spikes where a speaker's "wattage handling" comes into consideration? The light bulb in my head is starting to flicker.

This is helping to better clarify things for me.... my Dad lives in a smaller populous area so even the local Best Buy and H.H. Gregg stores are fairly small. The Best Buy at my Dad's location only sells a handful of home appliances and they don't even have a Magnolia Room.

The problem I ran into is in both of those stores, the sales people stressed that I needed speakers of a minimum wattage handling or else the speakers were "guaranteed" to blow. I doubt my Dad would ever turn the knob to 2 o'clock on the dial, but both stores insisted going past 2 o'clock would blow any speakers below a certain wattage handling. Based on a previous response above (if I understand correctly) that wattage handling is only for spikes caused by a slave woofer that is no longer putting a load on the system and thus creating a power spike on the smaller speakers.

Now although more expensive speakers are a good idea for this receiver, it now seems to me that the local stores were steering me based on the wrong reasons (that speakers must be of a minimum wattage for a particular receiver's power).

Now this brings up an additional question.... when trying to pair up a set of speakers to a receiver, it sounds like looking at speaker wattage handling against a receiver's per channel wattage is not a good way of doing things. Is the wattage handling of a speaker and the per channel wattage a receiver even on the same sheet of music? Or am I applying something that has nothing to do with the other?

The guys at the store recommended higher wattage speakers, but it now sounds like even those can be blown with this same receiver at too high of a setting on the volume dial. I seriously doubt the knob will ever even get to 2 o'clock since we're talking this set is located in a small living room.... so I'm curious in the academic sense what setting the volume very high on the knob would do even for those high wattage speakers.

LOL. Yeah, my Dad is a retiree, so loud house parties are out of the question.... I thought car guys blowing their subs was due to particular music they played which used ultra low bass that some woofers could not handling in a sustained way. Don't know... I'm not really a car audio guy.

The other reason why I bought this receiver for him aside from price and build quality is because it actually supports S-Video which is important for my Dad given he has stuff which would need that for best quality.... he likes legacy support. Many new models are dropping S-Video support unfortunately (even though they still support composite).

Yes.

They'd be fine.

Actually, its rated for sets of channels (FL+FR; SL+SR; etc.), not all seven at once. So, yes, if all 5 channels were ever driven to maximum at once, the per channel output would be less. It would be even less if all 7 were driven. Pioneer doesn't provide 5 or 7 channel driven figures. It's not especially relevant, as in the real world (as opposed to a test lab) all channels are rarely if ever driven to their maximum simultaneously. For practical purposes, the rated output fairly accurately reflects the AVR amp's potential output to a given speaker.


I meant that as a jest, hence the "just kidding" smiley. No offense was intended. I understood what you are doing and why. If anything, I'm just a bit jealous.


Yes.

I know most of this was addressed by others, but I'm compulsive.

Stuck:

I don't say this often but I will today. Whomever you spoke with at best buy is an IDIOT.

Your dad's volume knob will pass 2 O'clock on a regular basis because it is digital not analog. It will rotate quite a bit to achieve normal volume levels and is not like the knobs-of-yore that were analog and one rotation went from 0-10 (or 11 if it was a good tube amp - the old guys will get that one) and that was it.

Buy speakers for your father that are 88-93db efficient and rated to handle something in the range of 80-200wpc. Buy name brand speakers. A name brand HTIB (home theater in a box speaker set with a powered sub will work).

For starters try:

Polk RM series
Definitive Technologies 600/800/1000 series (updated) - my personal recommendation for a great starter system
JBL
KEF
Energy Take 5 Classic set (<$400 at Costco) - dirt cheap with good sound
HSU (forum sponsor)

There are plenty of others but those are a good starting point. Remember some don't come with a subwoofer and you will need to add that into the price point.

You can also try a forum sponsor or Crutchfield.com to buy and research speakers.

a brief off topic jaunt on a sunday morning that might illuminate things a bit more for you...

your dad will probably only use the first watt of power for 99% of his usage... he's not unique in that...

keeping it simple, speakers have a rating called "sensitivity"... this number tells you how loud (spl level) a speaker will get with 1 watt of power at a certain distance... most "consumer grade" speakers will fall somewhere in the range of, say, 85-102 db/watt... even 85 db is LOUD... factoring in an "average sitting distance" with "average room gain" with an "average speaker", you can see how little power is actually used...

it's transients and peaks that require "more power" (i.e. headroom)... and unless he's listening to movies at somewhere in the neighborhood of reference level, or listens to really dynamic orchestral music at high volumes, his headroom needs aren't excessive...

there's tons more stuff involved here (resistance, etc.), and i left out all the math (hey, it's sunday, i don't want to have to think too hard )... but the basic idea is, for the question you are asking, the wattage rating of the amplifier isn't relevant...

i was going to avoid commenting on the best buy person, but i gotta second that...

besides the obvious points that you listed, who actually even USES the volume knob anymore???

any of the sets eldi listed would make your dad happy...

Unfortunately, while they may be well intentioned, the sales people at most mass market are not well trained. They often only partially understand the principle they are discussing, and as a result, often inadvertently give out a lot of misinformation to trusting customers.


I pay no attention to speaker wattage handling. It's pretty useless, and most likely a product of lawyers trying to protect their companies from claims due to outlandish abuse. The only one worth considering is the minimum requirement, as far more damage is done by underpowered amps than by "overpowered" ones.

Unlike with amps, there is no standard for how the speaker ratings are developed. You can't really compare one speaker to another based on them. And trying match them to the amp's output is an exercise, nothing more.

As a rule, damage is done only if the amp is driven into clipping. This is a result of having too little power, not too much.

Moreover, a quality AVR like your dad's will have clipping protection designed in, so the chances of harming speakers with it are minimal at best.

I don't think there is an answer to your "academic" question. Suffice to say that if would be above the "0" volume setting, which no mature adult is likely to exceed for long anyway.

As I said in my first response, don't worry about it.

He'll probably average something like 0.02 watts. That'll deliver ~70+dB, which is the level most people choose for movies.

To save some math, try this easy to use SPL Calculator. It will illustrate ccotenj's point, and even let you determine how loud 130 watts would be in his room.