Bi-wiring not allowed in AVS Forum?!  

Sure. First, I am one reviewer who is not an advocate of bi-wiring but, also, one who does not see any downside to it except for cost and complexity.

Second, as an engineer, tell us what you understand as the science behind it.

Third, I think that arguing about this is silly. OTOH, a scientific discussion would be refreshing.

Wow! What an example of the need for Moderator intervention!
On this forum, I have often debated with individuals regarding the effectiveness of biwiring. I have my towers and center channel bi-wired. Is there an improvement in performance. I know it is for my speakers. It's my opinion and it's my choice. If someone has an issue with it, so what?! They are entitled to their opinion just like you and I!
So wave your Bi-Wire flag with pride and conviction!

Regards.

I prefer the Bi-amp method. Is there anybenifit to bi-wire?? It would seem not but I never tried it personally. It seems like it would based on one less connection used but I wouldn't think thats a noticable difference. When I got the last three ma500's that made the biggest difference in the over all sound quaility

I cannot believe that moving the connection from the double posts on the speaker to the single posts
at the rec/amp will change how the signal will be better or influenced but I am a reasonable person so I am all ears to someone that can explain this and I did try it
with no gain or loss on my system.

My opinionated .02; from what I have read bi-wiring is generally not audibly beneficial. Read some articles long ago that went into the whole science of bi-wiring and bi-amping and the over all conclusion was bi-wiring nets the same result as using a thicker wire. Not much more.

BTW not all Kool-Aid is suicide juice, most of the time it's just sugar water ya know. ;}~

Best Regards
KvE

The only major difference you will hear from biwiring without biamping is the phase shift of the tweeter and the woofer. And that's not a good thing. Any benefit from reduced impedance capacitance etc etc is too minimal. The only reason they put a pair of binding posts on each speaker is for biamping.

I am a bi-amp guy. I had my wire out for termination and was using some very expensive bi-wire cables... I missed my significantly cheaper wires in the bi-amp configuration. 14awg for HF, 10awg for LF.

You can blame this shift in religion to the amount of snake oil products that have saturated the market for decades. The money we lost auditioning, testing, and trading equipments could've put a kid through college. It's only natural that we lose faith in the so called "high end". I guess we sometimes can hear the difference but chooses not to due to fear of going back to the same path.

We're all audiophiles. We all love music and good sound reproduction. No one is reviled. I happen to be a former high end audiophile myself who spent enough money on high end gear to put a kid through college as mentioned above.

I learned the truth about perceptual hearing by conducting bias controlled listening tests with a group of people from a local audiophile society. They learned the truth as well and all of us abandoned high end audiphilia as a result of those tests. As far as I know they all continue to enjoy recorded music just like I do.

I can't speak for others but I do think it is folly to get involved with much of high end audiophilia knowing what I know now. Not because it isn't fun or because the music reproduction isn't good. It is because our ears lie to us and nurturing those lies and reveling in them is an expensive but pointless process that people should avoid if they have the information I and others can provide.

Personally, my goal isn't to save high end audiophiles from the ravages of the hobby. That's a personal choice. My goal is to help newcomers to the hobby understand the truth. If, after learning the truth, the newcomer wants to biwire his speakers then that's fine with me. I'm just trying to avoid having the newcomer do it without knowing the truth.

If I were going to advise a new audiophile on a process for getting the ultimate sound reproduction, I would tell him to build a room with the right dimensions for good acoustics, put whatever is necessary in the room to ensure good acoustics, put the best performing speakers he can find in that room and not worry much about the rest of it. However, it is the rest of it that the high end audiophiles tend to obsess about. Why? Because that is the part where audible differences are either subtle or non existent so their brains substitute bias for those audible differences. They become consumed with angst about things like DAC's and wires and how one amplifier with inaudible distortion sounds better than another one with inaudible distortion or, worse, that one with audible distortion sounds better than one without audible distortion.

We've tested all these things and found a few meaningless audible differences and found a lot of situations like biwiring where there isn't an audible difference at all. Audible differences in speakers and rooms, however, are very real and represent the key to good sonics. We've understood the reasons that people hear things that are not part of the equipment itself and explained it to people. Some pay attention, many do not. But we need to continue to try to help people learn the truth. They can make their choices after knowing the truth - whatever those choices are. I like 100 lb. class A amplifiers as much as the next guy and I've owned a few but I know it makes more sense to put the money in my retirement account than to buy one.

So, as long as the forum will allow me to do so, I will challenge people who offer things that we have proven to be untrue. I think we owe it to the newcomers to the hobby. That's it from my point of view. I revile nobody.

Is Bi-Wire allowed on AVS Forum. Well... yes. But be prepared to be criticized and insulted. Which is why many Hi-end guys have either left, or just don't post any more. The small amount of electical background that I have, tells me that on a typical speaker/amplifier combination, that Bi-Wiring is electrically the same. However, as Kal suggested, Bi-Wire doesn't hurt anything. There are obvious pros and cons to it. It cost more, especially if you're using pricey cables. But it can also be a benefit by effectively doubling the size of the the cable. I can't testify as to whether or not there is better control of the highs and lows (as some proponents of bi-wiring suggest). I can say that on 'some' speaker designs, bi-wiring is difinitively better. For example, speaker designs in which the there are separate low-frequency and high-frequency modules with out a doubt are better to bi-wire. Especially if that's the only way to hook them up.

Anything the manufacturer can do to have you keep the product longer in your home benefits him as well as the retailer who doesn't have to accept returns. Biwiring effectively accomplishes that at a minimal cost by not alienating those end-users and reviewers who subscribe to this notion.

That makes perfect sense to me.

No, you were kicked out of that forum because of the insulting tone of your posts. Posts full of falsehoods are allowed here. Obnoxious posts aren't.


And your basis for this assertion is what? I'd say, at best, that most speaker manufacturers are publicly agnostic on the question. Wire companies, of course, just want to sell you more wire.


Most audio reviewers are effectively shills for audio companies. They have little or no technical background in any of the relevant fields.


Good. Then you will understand this.

Now, understand something else: Science is more than just electrical engineering. There's a branch of experimental psychology called psychoacoustics, the study of human hearing perception. It's a field you might want to familiarize yourself with.


Not for much longer, I don't think.

And it benefits the dealer who has an opportunity to sell more cables.

The problem is that you began this thread with a plea for sane discussion and implied that you had some science to offer. Yet, in scanning this thread, I see only the reiterations of the two camps and no new information.

Not surprising, I suppose.

Anti-audiophile? No, anti-high-end audiophile. I'm happy your friend had an epiphany. Any time he wants to find why he had one he can come here.



Of course I know truth. I've done the tests. My position is proven by me and everyone else who has tested it. It isn't an opinion. It is a fact. Sorry. You would know the truth also if you did the tests. I didn't drive you from the other thread. You drove yourself by being rude. You can say that the planet is flat and my saying that it is spherical is just an opinion. But it is spherical nonetheless. Facts are facts.


It sounds like a bunch of people helping readers understand the truth. You can state all the facts or lack of facts you like in the forum. But to do so with the expectation that someone won't challenge something is unreasonable. If it were the case, then it would be a boring forum.

The high end guys haven't left. The nutjobs who are putting their cables on little stands have left.

And these sorts of comments are the sort of stuff that's completely unnecessary, and benefits no one.

I wonder if anybody has ever tested the audibility of cable stands. Probably not. Common sense should be enough to get the job done.

Look, I have a problem with his statement that the high-end guys have left. I haven't seen any of them leave. The people I have seen leave have been the guys big into snake oil.


The sort of people who believe their $20K player sounds "leaps and bounds" better than the $129 pioneer that it has inside of it.

The irony of this post is that the poster, after making this statement, didn't offer up a single scientific point of view. Additionally, after somebody disagreed with him, he left

How can there be a "scientific point of view" about biwiring? Biwiring doesn't do anything! Science explains phenomena that actually exist.

Well you haven't been here very long to know who's left and who hasn't. And no matter what kind of equipment someone owns, that doesn't justify name calling. I see no reason for your continual insults at people who enjoy and own hi-end equipment.

Doesn't do anything? I don't know about you, but it connects my amps to my speakers!

Actually you can blame it on the fact that the internet houses (and espouses) actively cheap philosophies, and repetition of those philosophies somehow turns into fact.

You will be hammered here repeatedly (typically by only a handful of society's gems) if you deviate from their Sith teachings.


Yes, and there's no point in investing in a better watch, since your WalMart special Timex keeps time also.

Your statement sounds like an admission of that which you cannot afford vs that which you can. Embarrassing.