Epson Ensemble HD 1080 - The Home Theater for everyone but us? Let's Discuss! - Page 2

Originally Posted by presenter

That's good feedback, I wasn't aware it has been shipping there for a while, but it's not surprising, anything "new" that's good, tends to get early traction in Japan, a good sign for Epson's efforts here.

Originally Posted by Sherardp

These are very popular out here in Japan. I've seen them set up in a few homes since Ive been out here. Not a bad setup, however they are pricey as said earlier. Excellent for a family who just wants simplicity of putting together a system at a single installation and being done.

Originally Posted by CEGUY

Wow!

I can't believe all of this. Everyone seems to have missed the point. First of all, a little background here. I am a home theater lover and have a consuming interest in pre amps and power amps. As with many of my friends, I am always on the hunt for the newest, latest greatest etc.

Nevertheless, I promised to help a friend put together a home theater including a projector that would not cause a divorce. After I read the review, we went to a local dealer who had just installed one of these systems in his showroom. The impression it made on my friend was pure wonder.

The performance was by any measure very impressive. From a video perspective (not my area of expertise) it was very satisfying on Blu Ray. Yes, we watched the old standby The Fifth Element and later, the Fantastic 4. I would not be unhappy with what I saw but I am sure others more skilled than me would have some cricisms when it came to ultimate performance.

Sonically,(something I do know something about) it sounded much better than I would haveever imagined. The built-in LCR's in the screen delivered a dynamic sound stage with remarkable intelligibility of the center channel, (with no impression of edginess in the high frequencies) The woofer was there when called upon with no boom or artificial "one note" bass. The surround speakers (which I fully expected to fall down on the job due their location in that projector cradle") produced an impressive surround field.

Could I assemble a better performing system for the money? Probably. But that is NOT the point. I could not duplicate the ease of use, the cosmetics and the near disappearance of the system when it was off and the motorized screen was up. This system gives you very convincing high quality home theater without high-jacking the living room or den. I am not aware of anything anywhere close to that price that can deliver on that promise or ease of use.

Within limits this is not a matter of what you can do for what price. This is a very impressive product that can integrate into thousands of homes.

Here is the kicker: The store we visited has an average install of $75,000, with many systems pushing $2000,000 +. I asked the owner why he carries this prduct. He answered that he refuses to sell HTIB's and that his "entry level" for components and speakers without video is about the same price or higher (He is a Rotel/B&W dealer). Many of his clients want a second system but On a related topic don't want in-walls or lots of floor standing speakers, wires and complicated front panels) They want something that looks good, sounds good and does not dominate the room when it is off. The Ensemble fits his and his client's needs perfectly. He expects to sell a lot of them. His first "sale" however is for his own house.

On a related topic, we all have our reasons to dislike Bose. Would I ever own one of their products? Nope- not even in my car. Nevertheless they have figured out better than any company what most consumers want. Now Epson comes along and appears to have "out-Bosed" Bose. They have something that looks good on or off but in Epson's case (I will probably get in trouble for this) actually sounds quite excellent for what it is.

My friend will end up buying an Ensemble as soon as his wife sees it for herself and I feel that I have helped him find a quality product that will fit his needs.

Originally Posted by BuffaloJim

Yes, people are missing the point. This product certainly is not aimed at the people who generally contribute to this site. In fact it's probably aimed at people who would never find themselves on an AV site.

The ensemble should introduce many new people to the wonders of projector theaters and it is a good product. But it's certainly not perfect. No dealer would ever demo this projector with a standard DVD; it's always going to be Blu-ray. And that should be reason enough for Epson to rapidly include a Blu-ray drive in the head unit. That is the single biggest fault I see with this product. But overall, it's excellent and it stands alone with no real competition.

Jim

Originally Posted by mjg100

I agree with most everything that you said, but I am puzzled by the above statement. In-wall speakers and a drop down screen are no more intrusive in the room than the screen with the built in speakers and you can get a lot higher quality sound system. I think this is a great product, but I feel it's geared toward non HT type people and that is a great market to go after. I have to admit I am surprised that people experienced with HT and front projection would be that interested in this product.

Due to my construction back ground I guess I view things differently from others. I do not see it as a big deal to install wiring in walls or cutting openings in walls for in-wall speakers. As I said in my first response for the non HT informed this is a great product. For those of us that make a hobby out of this I think you would be paying Epson for expertise that you do not need.

Originally Posted by CEGUY

You really have to see this thing in a showroom (or living room) to appreciate it. When it is off, there are no big in-wall cutouts(with those white grills)to look at. With the motorized screen retracted, it looks like one of those sleek Euro styled thin air conditioning modules near the ceiling. As for performance, I would not make those judgements until you have heard it. I have auditioned a lot of in-wall systems and this product (at least on movies) holds it's own with some of the better ones especially on dialog intelligibility.

Blu-Ray of course is a necessary add on. When I asked the dealer why that drive was not included, he commented that the Ensemble system had been under development for about two years. At the time final decisions had to be made no one really knew who would win the format war between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. (Supposing they had chosen the latter?) Epson felt that since the unit would include HDMI inputs, adding on one or the other was pretty easy. If both formats had survived, they would not be forcing a decision on the consumer. In retrospect, at that time, their decision was logical.

I do agree with you that most people on this forum tend to be more DIY oriented and this system doesn't allow for many options. For most readers, putting their custom systems together is half the fun. (The other half is debating with others about their choices) But for those that want a simple, elegant, fairly high performance solution to home theater, this product is a home run.

I think Epson is adopting what has made Bose so popular with the general public all of these years- simplicity.

Originally Posted by victor-eyd

I think Epson is adopting what has made Bose so popular with the general public all of these years- simplicity. For a moment, forget everything about quality acoustics and fidelity. Hell, even in most movie theaters are we are rarely treated to a good fidelity movie soundtrack.

No, what Epson is selling is what Bose has always been promoting- simplicity and ease of use at the expense of the better fidelity (which is in itself subjective). AVS members are pretty much in the majority that Bose sucks. Okay I'll buy that assessment easily. I've assembled a pretty decent system and it will trounce any Bose system i've ever heard in my life. But look at what my wife (or kids) have to do/navigate when I'm not around but they want to watch in the theater- push this button, set that button, load this, select that, power this aspect ratio that, etc. No wonder they'd rather wait till I'm around!

Now with the Ensemble system, everything is laid out easily are in plain English, just like Bose. You ask your SO (who has the same buying decisions/overrides as you, btw) if you buy into a multi-unit system with multiple buttons and sequences to simply queue a movie vs the Ensemble system and tell them on the 1st that only a) you alone can successfully operate this without ruing the sound/picture and b)if you should them how to operate it they might get so frustrated they'll never touch the system without you around ever again or get the Ensemble and everyone/anyone can operate it and everyone will enjoy it but the cost is higher than the 1st setup.

I think you'll find that ease-of-use is just as effective as a highlight of any system (viedeo or audio) as its performance.

Victor

If you get a good universal remote and take the time and trouble to set it up then anybody can operate your system.

Originally Posted by BuffaloJim

Set it up?? What are you nuts? You don't set up remote controls. You open the box, put the batteries in, point it at your TV, and start using it.

People that "set up" remotes do not buy Bose audio systems and they certainly won't be buying an Ensemble. These are for people who want simple systems, yet still want decent audio and video. The very fact that people are on this site generally rules them out for a Bose or Ensemble system. Because they do "set up remotes", they do tinker with their systems, and they aren't willing to compromise. But there are millions who don't and those are the people this system is aimed at.

Jim

Originally Posted by mjg100

Now this is where you are dead wrong.

Equipment cabinet. This black cabinet sits on the floor and is less than 27 inches high, the cabinet has
A built in sub-woofer
A middle and top shelf for other equipment

Originally Posted by victor-eyd

I don't think so. I've seen how "well" universal remotes go and just by looking at the interface on many remotes, it can be as visually daunting as the system itself. I'm not against your pov, since on a certain level you are correct. I've been on that path. I've bought the best remote that I could afford at the time which could be easy enough to operate for my family. But the point that you are standing by is simply the view that most outside of avsforum just don't subscribe to. There are enough things that complicate our life that simply watching a movie shouldn't need a tutorial or some/a lot of prior ht experience to operate correctly. For many/most it has to be as simple as pressing the "on" button and enjoying the film.

Look, you can rail against this train of thought till the end of time, and yes, a lot people on this forum who love a/v and everything that goes with it will agree with you. I got no problem with that.

But have been into a/v as a hobbyist and enthusiast for almost 15yrs now I've seen enough advances and sadly, increases in complexity that I'm pretty sure this is why when people are alway ask or interested in Bose- its how their interface is presented and the simplicity of use that most Bose systems always provide. Again, I'm not interested in the sound quality. That has been debated enough on this and many other forums.

Its K.I.S.S., and it has worked for years with Bose and Epson was just smart enough to implement that standard into the Ensemble. Epson simply needs to market this effectively through more popular b&m like CC or BB before Sony, Sharp, Mitsubishi, and Samsung get their systems out.

You may not like the concept, the picture, or even the sound but if this works as well as Epson hopes, don't be surprised in the HTIB section creates its own sub-forum, the PBHTIB (Projector-based Home Theater In a Box)

Victor

Originally Posted by mjg100

In-wall speaker quality varies a lot. My in-walls are actually enclosed speakers. Back in 1999 when I built my room I could only find two companies that made enclosed in-walls. Actual cabinets not just a back box stuck on. Now days there are several companies that make decent in-walls.

Up to what size room will this handle? Also do you try to place the projector so that it is seated distance or farther from the screen so that the sound from the rear speakers is located in the general area of where they should be? I assume the sound bouncing off of the side walls helps diffuse the location and make it seem like it is coming from the sides rather than from above you in the middle. I think it is a good idea. Something like this is needed to help bring FP to more people.

I think this will especially be a good product once you can buy it with a high lumen LED projector. At that point I think it will be close to being able to replace a flat panel TV.

Originally Posted by Peter Tribeman

Hello everyone,

Since we were involved in designing the speaker system for the Ensemble, I thought I would answer a few questions and make some further comments about the audible aspects of the system

"Up to what size room will this handle?"

The Ensemble system was designed for spaces between 2000 and 3000 cubic feet. That being said, this past week we used the Ensemble to teach a course on A/V demonstration, at the Nationwide dealer event Las Vegas. The room we were located in was 40 feet long, 20 feet wide and had 35 foot ceilings. (Not your typical living room) We installed drapes to kill several room reflections and added an additional sub due to the enormous cubic space. The system filled the room to the point that we had plenty of gain left to go even louder if necessary.

"Also do you try to place the projector so that it is seated distance or farther from the screen so that the sound from the rear speakers is located in the general area of where they should be?"

The projector has a fairly wide range of placement. I would say that the ideal range would be to sit within 5 feet in front of to 5 feet behind the projector to have optimized surround.


"I assume the sound bouncing off of the side walls helps diffuse the location and make it seem like it is coming from the sides rather than from above you in the middle."

You are absolutely correct about that assumption. To be honest, we ourselves had some concerns about a good surround field with horizontal placement above our heads firing towards the walls. It turns out that it is very effective providing that the walls in the firing range are reflective. (We opened the curtains in that part of the demo room)

Now some general comments:

As a home theater speaker manufacturer, we have a lot of experience in designing, conventional box speakers and in-wall systems (both open and sealed box). When we were invited into the Ensemble project, we knew we would have special challenges. CEGUY pointed out he heard a high degree of intelligibility with dialog. In the case of Ensemble that was no accident. We knew up front that the screen with on-board speakers would be located near the intersection of the ceiling and the wall--a perfect nightmare of unwanted boundary effects cause by surface reflections and refractions. To solve this dilemma, we first designed the speakers to be as flat as possible in free air. In the design process we then hung the screen at the intersection of ceiling and wall, a foot below, a foot forward, etc. We took measurements at those locations and then inserted an EQ network in the on-board 5.1 amplifiers located in the subwoofer. The 5 position EQ switch on the back of the sub compensates for these positions and flattens out the speaker response accordingly. The result is very clear dialog.

As for the subwoofer itself, we added an "anti boom" control; the Ensemble includes a set up DVD, which has test tones. The installer can then use a basic SPL meter such as the Radio Shack and measure the first room mode that causes "one note bass" and dial it out on the back of the sub with an on-board parametric EQ. It sounds complicated but in actual use it is quite simple.

I realize that this is the projector forum and to many of you sound is of secondary interest. However, for the record, we wanted everyone to know that we put a lot of thought and effort into this system and we are very happy with the results. I'll leave the video performance for everyone here to judge. However for acoustic performance, the Ensemble is an overachiever and we are proud that the system also has our name on it.

Best regards,

Peter Tribeman

Atlantic Technology

Originally Posted by davegrey99

This product will never sell well. Too expensive.
Local installers have better packages for the same price. Do-it-yourself'ers will piece together a better system at a much better price.

.

Originally Posted by presenter

As noted, it's an HC1080, not a UB, so it's value is probably $2000, not $2800.

As to getting better sound for $1500 with receiver, are you remembering that your $1500 system's speakers would most likely have to be in-walls? At the minimum, extremely small satellite speakers, mounted high, out of the way of anything else in the room. One of the nice things about the system, is that there are no speakers taking up space, just the cradle for the projector and a screen enclosure that is a few inches deeper than most motorized screens. That will have great appeal, especially when it's "wife approval time".

No one will argue that at $7000, that we can't put together more pure performance, hand selecting everything.

Real world - people - do you know that the average car shopping test drives only one model car, with all the brands, and competing models out there?

Well less than one percent of car shoppers, I believe, test drive 3 or more vehicles before making a purchase (I'm talking new cars now, everyone test drives used cars.)

These are your neighbors, we're talking about. They are buying their 3rd Camry in a row, and only test drove the first one, but sat in the last two.

Do you really think they will spend 20+ hours picking out a system, meeting with 3 different installer companies for a quote (they will not do the work themselves, that's you guys, not them). Not a chance.

My point is this is the ticket for the masses (that can afford $7000-$8000).

Sure, Epson would sell more if they charged $5000, or $4500, but that's not the point. If a product like this can prove to sell sufficient tonnage, to prove the viability, then you'll see competing models, and you will see dramatic reductions in cost (20-40%), Epson will be able to figure out how many more 1080 versions they can sell at $6000, $5000, $4500, $4000, and will, of course, once they have a handle on the overall viability of the concept, they will no doubt adjust the price for maximum marketshare and maximum profit, as any good business would. My biggest fear, is that Epson isn't a great marketing company. Someone mentioned Bose. (BTW I have never cared for the sound from Bose - going back 30+ years to the old 901s). Bose could sell millions of these, them suckas are the king of marketing in the audio industry. -art

Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV

Art-

Are you familiar with the "rainbow text" color problem with the HDMI input on the non-UB Epson 1080 projectors?

Originally Posted by presenter

Greetings!

I acknowledge this may be a problem for PC based folks, but, if my observations are correct, it doesn't appear with normal hdmi input from DVD/Blu-ray/HDTV. If it does, then perhaps I have never spotted it, because single pixel wide text is not likely to occur when when watching movies, and other non-PC content.

-a