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Signature Elite 141 Owners Thread - Page 163

post #4861 of 5242
4/27/10 at 10:30am
I'VE STARTED A NEW THREAD LOCATED HERE;
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post18547346
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #4862 of 5242
4/27/10 at 10:32am
Dave, before you made your purchase did you compare the Runco Plasma against their LCD? Just curious.
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post #4863 of 5242
4/27/10 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sony324 View Post

spongebob- out of the box the picture is nothing short of breath taking! I can't wait to see what this thing is capable of when I get a full ISF calibration done!
Current US MSRP is $8995 I believe but could be wrong.
After discussions with Runco, I do not believe this panel will suffer the rising black level issues panasonic's CONSUMER line suffered. Remember these panels are made from the panasonic PROFESSIONAL line not the consumer line and are then gutted and many parts are replaced with Runco parts to their specifications.
I still cannot believe how wonderful the picture actually is. I popped in Lord of The Rings Fellowship of the Ring--- tv is on factory default with everything at 0 values (in the middle) and the colors and contrast were remarkable! Colors came right off the screen and contrast was spot on--a much, much, much brighter picture at 50% contrast than the 141 ELITE could offer. See guys, I loved my 141 but always felt it lacked brightness... especially on PURE mode and when ISF'D. I cannot believe how this tv is so bright and vivid at 50% contrast---yet black levels are strong and inky. Totally amazing!!
The one thing I think many of you will love is the fact that you will no longer have to "baby" your panel when cleaning it---the OPAL treatment is on the inside of the glass and the screen can be cleaned with regular household glass cleaner.
When the tv is turned off the screen is definitely black like the Elites. What I love most about this set is how the smallest details, like stars in space, really glow and can be quite vibrant without sacrificing black level. You really do see the smallest of details in the dark areas yet blacks remain deep and inky.
If I could have afforded the 65" at $14,000 I would have.
Another really cool thing you guys should be aware of, every once in a while Runco offers a TRADE-UP program... now what other tv manufacturer would give you credit towards a new product by trading in your old one??!! These things really do hold their value.
One more thing... and I know this bugs some of you... you will never again have to worry about scratching the bezel since its solid brushed metal---a very nice touch!! Also... gets no distracting glare.
Sorry to keep going on... but.. I have one more important point. One of the benefits of the OPAL treatment is significantly less glare---and I have not had the opportunity to touch on this yet. AGAIN, THIS PANEL BLOWS AWAY THE 141!! Even on my factory settings of 0, I can see the picture quite clearly when our patio door windows are open. It does a much better job than my 141 at reducing glare.

For what it is worth, I would love to see top calibrators review this set against the 101FD and 500M. My ISF calibrator told me the difference was minimal at best. Yes, he has worked with Runco sets before. We will see or maybe not
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post #4864 of 5242
4/27/10 at 10:39am
I would like to see the gamma charts from the 2 sets. If the shadow detail is better on the runco I wonder what the gamma difference is?
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post #4865 of 5242
4/27/10 at 11:53am
hey guys a quick question

I've set the pro101fd to auto
and let the PS3 to auto to...

The blacks seems ok especially the black bars during 2.35 moving content seems to melt with the bezel but during previews...the black bars looks like a 4 years old cheap plasma the black are really light.
Why? something to do with the settings?

THANKS!!!
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post #4866 of 5242
4/27/10 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thj17 View Post

hey guys a quick question

I've set the pro101fd to auto
and let the PS3 to auto to...

The blacks seems ok especially the black bars during 2.35 moving content seems to melt with the bezel but during previews...the black bars looks like a 4 years old cheap plasma the black are really light.
Why? something to do with the settings?

THANKS!!!

Direct connection to the panel?
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post #4867 of 5242
4/27/10 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Direct connection to the panel?

No I'm running the hdmi thru a pio elite HTS-LX70 home theater system...but to my understanding, this system is supposed to be pass-thru regarding video signals

thanks for your help D-nice
always appreciate your posts on this forum
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post #4868 of 5242
4/27/10 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thj17 View Post

No I'm running the hdmi thru a pio elite HTS-LX70 home theater system...but to my understanding, this system is supposed to be pass-thru regarding video signals

thanks for your help D-nice
always appreciate your posts on this forum

Pause one of the previews with the gray bars, cycle thru the HDMI color space options on your 101FD and post which one looks correct.
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post #4869 of 5242
4/27/10 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Pause one of the previews with the gray bars, cycle thru the HDMI color space options on your 101FD and post which one looks correct.

I tried it and no good results...
auto, 1(YUV422), 2(YUV444) all three looks too light black
both RGB 16-235 abd 0-255 turned the black to pink...

So I suspect the blu-ray disc itself (actually cars)
The opening screen "Depending on the capabilities of your player..." is ok
After, I have the previews which looks extremelly too light
than the menu...I start the movie and everything is fine
I made another test going to the close page of the PS3 and the black is good

So I think I remember a while reading about bad colorspace encoding of previews compared the disk which is in fact in YCC if I remember well)
little confused about all these RGB vs YCC

THANKS again for your help
I appreciate it very much...too bad your not coming to my location...I have very little to almost no option regarding calibrators in my area
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post #4870 of 5242
4/27/10 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sony324 View Post

spongebob- out of the box the picture is nothing short of breath taking! I can't wait to see what this thing is capable of when I get a full ISF calibration done!
Current US MSRP is $8995 I believe but could be wrong.
After discussions with Runco, I do not believe this panel will suffer the rising black level issues panasonic's CONSUMER line suffered. Remember these panels are made from the panasonic PROFESSIONAL line not the consumer line and are then gutted and many parts are replaced with Runco parts to their specifications.
I still cannot believe how wonderful the picture actually is. I popped in Lord of The Rings Fellowship of the Ring--- tv is on factory default with everything at 0 values (in the middle) and the colors and contrast were remarkable! Colors came right off the screen and contrast was spot on--a much, much, much brighter picture at 50% contrast than the 141 ELITE could offer. See guys, I loved my 141 but always felt it lacked brightness... especially on PURE mode and when ISF'D. I cannot believe how this tv is so bright and vivid at 50% contrast---yet black levels are strong and inky. Totally amazing!!
The one thing I think many of you will love is the fact that you will no longer have to "baby" your panel when cleaning it---the OPAL treatment is on the inside of the glass and the screen can be cleaned with regular household glass cleaner.
When the tv is turned off the screen is definitely black like the Elites. What I love most about this set is how the smallest details, like stars in space, really glow and can be quite vibrant without sacrificing black level. You really do see the smallest of details in the dark areas yet blacks remain deep and inky.
If I could have afforded the 65" at $14,000 I would have.
Another really cool thing you guys should be aware of, every once in a while Runco offers a TRADE-UP program... now what other tv manufacturer would give you credit towards a new product by trading in your old one??!! These things really do hold their value.
One more thing... and I know this bugs some of you... you will never again have to worry about scratching the bezel since its solid brushed metal---a very nice touch!! Also... gets no distracting glare.
Sorry to keep going on... but.. I have one more important point. One of the benefits of the OPAL treatment is significantly less glare---and I have not had the opportunity to touch on this yet. AGAIN, THIS PANEL BLOWS AWAY THE 141!! Even on my factory settings of 0, I can see the picture quite clearly when our patio door windows are open. It does a much better job than my 141 at reducing glare.

Awesome

So you think it's pretty close to D65 right out of the box?

What user WB, CMS settings are available?

thx

bob
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post #4871 of 5242
5/17/10 at 6:52am
Calibrating Pioneer 101 Monitor with Spears and Munsil
----------------------------------------------------
Folks, so I popped in the Blu ray calibration DVD into my OPPO BDP-83 that is routed via DVDO Edge into my Pioneer Pro-101 FD monitor. I set the brightness level by making sure that the left two bars are invisible, but the second bar from right does not show the number 20 as the instructions suggest. If I increase the brightness even a notch I see the outline of the left most bar. Setting contrast level has been more difficult. I do not see the bar upto 17. I do see some outlines up to number 13 or so, but never see the bar 17 fully and clearly. What am I doing wrong?
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post #4872 of 5242
5/17/10 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheaterLover View Post

Calibrating Pioneer 101 Monitor with Spears and Munsil... What am I doing wrong?

You're trying to calibrate a display that clips below 17 and above ~235. If you want to see what an unclipped display looks like set DRE to Low.

When you see edges on bars it's due to a processing defect. I believe S&M took some pains to minimize such edge artifacts by aligning patters on block boundaries but maybe not.
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post #4873 of 5242
5/17/10 at 11:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

You're trying to calibrate a display that clips below 17 and above ~235. If you want to see what an unclipped display looks like set DRE to Low.

When you see edges on bars it's due to a processing defect. I believe S&M took some pains to minimize such edge artifacts by aligning patters on block boundaries but maybe not.

Thanks bodosom for your insights. The DRE on my 101 is set to LOW already. What else leads to clipping? May be the processing defect you mention is coming from my DVDO Edge. I have set it to a low value for edge enhancement. Any other insights?
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post #4874 of 5242
5/18/10 at 7:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheaterLover View Post

... What else leads to clipping? ...

[All my comments assume HDMI]
Any component can clip. The 101FD and -83 (can) work so it's some other component in your video chain or it's a configuration error.

Direct connect the BD to the Kuro, set the -83 to RGB 16-235 and the Kuro to RGB 0-255, select the Pluge and Contrast patterns. You should see all the bars. If not you have to solve that configuration problem first (and then switch each end to Auto). Given properly setup end devices standard debugging should sort out the rest.

By the way, I would suggest using an untouched video path from the Oppo to the Kuro.
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post #4875 of 5242
5/18/10 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

[All my comments assume HDMI]
Any component can clip. The 101FD and -83 (can) work so it's some other component in your video chain or it's a configuration error.

Direct connect the BD to the Kuro, set the -83 to RGB 16-235 and the Kuro to RGB 0-255, select the Pluge and Contrast patterns. You should see all the bars. If not you have to solve that configuration problem first (and then switch each end to Auto). Given properly setup end devices standard debugging should sort out the rest.

By the way, I would suggest using an untouched video path from the Oppo to the Kuro.

Thanks Bodosom. How do you set BDP-83 to RGB 16-235? I only see auto, y422, y444? What configuration problems are you referring to?
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post #4876 of 5242
5/18/10 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheaterLover View Post

Thanks Bodosom. How do you set BDP-83 to RGB 16-235? I only see auto, y422, y444? What configuration problems are you referring to?

HDMI Options -> Color Space -> RGB Video.

There are many configuration choices and devices hence many places for incompatibility. The various "AUTO" settings are supposed to solve that problem but it doesn't always work out.
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post #4877 of 5242
5/18/10 at 2:31pm
Hi,

I'm trying to use the 141 as an external monitor for an early 2009 (unibody) Macbook Pro (MBP). I've had some success, but am unable to set the resolution to anything higher than 1280 x 1024 -- e.g., if I set it to 1600 x 1200 the 141 goes black (even though, according to the documentation, that is a resolution supported by both the 141 and the MBP). Does anyone have any ideas as to what might be going on?

Thanks,

:Paul

Setup: Using Input 4 (DVI) with the Signal Type set to PC and Video set to Auto, and connecting the MBP to the 141 is a Mini DisplayPort Male to DVI Male 15' cable (this is a Monoprice product: http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2)
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post #4878 of 5242
5/19/10 at 9:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

HDMI Options -> Color Space -> RGB Video.

There are many configuration choices and devices hence many places for incompatibility. The various "AUTO" settings are supposed to solve that problem but it doesn't always work out.

Folks, the last 6 months or so I have been watching my Pro-101 with BDP-83 connected via DVDO Edge. I loved the picture and never popped in the S&M Blu-ray. When I finally ran the patterns, I had real trouble with the brightness and contrast settings (not all bars show). Our kind Bodosom then introduced me to the concept of clipping. And asked me to play with RGB color space. I don't fully understand the difference between RGB, Y422 or Y444 and am not sure which one is better. The interesting thing is with BDP-83, OPPO and 141 set to RGB, the brightness level that give me to right bars on the LOW PLUGE pattern is -20 (which seems extremely low since I have been watching all along with 0) and the contrast is 48 (I have been watching with 28 all along). So what do I do? I do understand the practical impact of clipping and its impact on picture. I know bodosom has this all figure out
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post #4879 of 5242
5/19/10 at 11:15am
^^^

If you have tried adjusting in the panel and cannot
clearly correct the problem there, use the OPPO to
adjust any cliiping issues.

Return your settings back to were you had them and
bring up the same pluge pattern and set the contrast
in the OPPO to -1 and see how the bars look.
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post #4880 of 5242
5/19/10 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheaterLover View Post

The interesting thing is with BDP-83, OPPO and 141 set to RGB, the brightness level that give me to right bars on the LOW PLUGE pattern is -20 (which seems extremely low since I have been watching all along with 0) and the contrast is 48 (I have been watching with 28 all along). So what do I do?

1) Don't use RGB except to verify the origin of clipping (the gray blacks are caused by RGB issues).
2) Don't pass the Oppo output though the Edge unless you have very special needs in which case you should probably set the Oppo to Source Direct. Ideally anything between the Oppo and the Kuro should be set to video pass-through.
3) Use AUTO or YCC 4:4:4 at each end so you can use Deep Color.
4) Do your primary adjustment with the Oppo directly connected to the Kuro (you can't normally run like this because you won't get any audio if one of the devices -- e.g. the Kuro -- says NO AUDIO).

Don't obsess over clipping (treat the S&M clip patterns as a harmless diversion) and don't run with DRE on just to avoid clipping.
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post #4881 of 5242
5/19/10 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

... set the contrast in the OPPO to -1 and see how the bars look.

All this does is compress the video to below ~235.

For more insight into this read the Setting contrast with Spears and Munsil disc thread. It starts off with one goal but results in the first careful assessment of on disc video data I'm aware of. One can summarize thusly:
1) There is negligible data above 235 on BD and probably likewise for DVD.
2) Data above reference white (235) are mostly processing artifacts.
3) Setting peak output to ~254 throws away ~9% of your contrast ratio for no positive benefit.
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post #4882 of 5242
5/19/10 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

All this does is compress the video to below ~235.

For more insight into this read the Setting contrast with Spears and Munsil disc thread. It starts off with one goal but results in the first careful assessment of on disc video data I'm aware of. One can summarize thusly:
1) There is negligible data above 235 on BD and probably likewise for DVD.
2) Data above reference white (235) are mostly processing artifacts.
3) Setting peak output to ~254 throws away ~9% of your contrast ratio for no positive benefit.

bodosom,

Thanks for the link, plenty of good info in there.

So, your saying its better to lose any info above white
because most of the time it is filled with artifacts. I
was always lead to believe that above white should
be visible on test patterns.

Very interesting, looks like I will have to get my I1pro out
again and do re-calibration.

Mike
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post #4883 of 5242
5/19/10 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

So, your saying its better to lose any info above whitebecause most of the time it is filled with artifacts. I was always lead to believe that above white should be visible on test patterns.

Conventional wisdom is that there's useful information above reference white. So far a careful assessment suggests there isn't enough (if any) to pay the price in decreased contrast ratio. There are two potential issues:
1) Will clipping itself induce undesireable artifacts. I don't think so. I think the monitors roll-off above 235 rather than hard clip (although I think they do clip black).
2) There are possible gamma effects. I don't think there are visible effects but one assumes they're managed by adjusting gamma at the high end (assuming multi-point gamma adjustments).
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post #4884 of 5242
5/19/10 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

1) Don't use RGB except to verify the origin of clipping (the gray blacks are caused by RGB issues).

When I set all the the input/outputs to RGB, I do see all the bars. Except when I calibrate, the settings are way beyond what seems normal (Brightness=-20).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

1) 2) Don't pass the Oppo output though the Edge unless you have very special needs in which case you should probably set the Oppo to Source Direct. Ideally anything between the Oppo and the Kuro should be set to video pass-through.

I use EDGE as a HUB since I do have other video components and wanted to only run one HDMI cable to my monitor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

3) Use AUTO or YCC 4:4:4 at each end so you can use Deep Color.

Yes, AUTO is what I use. If yes, the DVDO EDGE shows input as 4:4:4 and output as 4:4:4. So I should be good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

4) Do your primary adjustment with the Oppo directly connected to the Kuro (you can't normally run like this because you won't get any audio if one of the devices -- e.g. the Kuro -- says NO AUDIO).

Will try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Don't obsess over clipping (treat the S&M clip patterns as a harmless diversion) and don't run with DRE on just to avoid clipping.

Are you saying that clipping will not have much adverse effect on PQ? What about black level? And that is it not necessary to get the brightness and contrast settings done with S&M?

Thanks
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post #4885 of 5242
5/20/10 at 3:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

1) Don't use RGB except to verify the origin of clipping (the gray blacks are caused by RGB issues).
2) Don't pass the Oppo output though the Edge unless you have very special needs in which case you should probably set the Oppo to Source Direct. Ideally anything between the Oppo and the Kuro should be set to video pass-through.
3) Use AUTO or YCC 4:4:4 at each end so you can use Deep Color.
4) Do your primary adjustment with the Oppo directly connected to the Kuro (you can't normally run like this because you won't get any audio if one of the devices -- e.g. the Kuro -- says NO AUDIO).

Don't obsess over clipping (treat the S&M clip patterns as a harmless diversion) and don't run with DRE on just to avoid clipping.

I'm still toying with DRE = low vs. OFF. With it on low, it skews my calibration settings for gamma slightly. I do, however subjectively, think that it gives me better real world performance.

I have ISF-Day set to DRE = off and ISF-Night set to DRE = low. All other settings are identical. It's been a few weeks and I think I'm preferring low. I'll have to go back and really re-do the calibration to see better data, though.

Even if it's not 100% "right" - I may stay with "low", since I don't watch test patterns with meters attached every night
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post #4886 of 5242
5/20/10 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheaterLover View Post

When I set all the the input/outputs to RGB, I do see all the bars. Except when I calibrate, the settings are way beyond what seems normal (Brightness=-20).

That's a colorspace mismatch. Either set both ends to RGB video or use YCC (AUTO).
Quote:


Are you saying that clipping will not have much adverse effect on PQ?

Yes.
Quote:


What about black level? And that is it not necessary to get the brightness and contrast settings done with S&M?

The S&M checkerboard can be used to set Brightness on a display that clips 16. Setting contrast correctly is tricky. If you have a meter you can set to recommended levels or you can set DRE to low, make 240 visible and then turn DRE off.
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post #4887 of 5242
5/20/10 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

I'm still toying with DRE = low vs. OFF.

DRE creates edge artifacts and (subtly but visibly) changes gamma. If those effects don't bother you then there's no problem. However the evidence so far shows negligible information outside the video reference range so there don't appear to be any pros to outweigh the cons -- unless you like the "look" of DRE.
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post #4888 of 5242
5/24/10 at 7:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

DRE creates edge artifacts and (subtly but visibly) changes gamma. If those effects don't bother you then there's no problem. However the evidence so far shows negligible information outside the video reference range so there don't appear to be any pros to outweigh the cons -- unless you like the "look" of DRE.

bodosom,
I find that DRE is beneficial in broadcast HD sources. I have seen many instances (without any proof whatsoever) that there seems to be blinding whites on live broadcasts or any broadcast so enabling DRE on these sources have helped me with that (white crush). Then again, this is all based on my eyes, so I could be imagining it. The edge artifacts are visible but I can live with it for now.
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post #4889 of 5242
5/25/10 at 11:04am
Exactly - and that is what I am trying to gauge what I "prefer" more and what I am willing to live with.

So far, I think OFF may be the way to go - even from a preference perspective.
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post #4890 of 5242
5/26/10 at 8:39am
Hello! I'm a new Signature Series Kuro Elite Pro-101FD owner. I thought this was the best place to post my questions. let me know if there is a better place.

I just picked it up NIB 101FD for around $2700 from BB. (They still have one left open box missing a remote, so if anyone is interested in picking one up for a good deal, they are in Rockaway NJ)

So, its getting delivered next saturday. I have to now make room. I'm going to try to sell my Sony Trin-a-tron 37 inch tv this weekend. I'm asking $200. I think that's fair.

now, onto the 101FD.... I'm still looking for answers in the threads here, but for now, i'm wondering about:

1. wall mount - bb wanted to sell me a $200 one, but i figured i would look around first. What ones do you guys recommend? I got the stand, but i'll end up wall mounting it sooner then later.

2. Burn in. - okay I'm looking for the official word... isn't the signature series already burned in from the factory? is that part of the "signature series" ? If not, I'm thinking i'll just use the burn in DVD for around 100 hours. Cant hurt, right?

3. calibration from BB was part of my deal, i already bought it. Is there anything i should know before they come to the house to do this? what can i expect? What should i ask for? I hear things like a paper print out of settings is something i should get? can i save the settings using the IP enabled control web interface? I'll have all that set up no problem (web interface to my ipad) i'm sure.

4. Audio delay issues: okay, this is the part of HD video that i'm new to... how to take care of the delay in the monitor. So here's my issue: i have the audio from bluray going into a cheap tuner going to some bose speakers (to be all upgraded later when i get more cash). If i go hdmi into the 101FD and audio SPDIF out to my tuner and speakers, will there be a delay between the image and sound? If so, can i dial that back to match any delay in the monitor? I would assume that this is all taken care of in the HDMI spec, but i'm not sure. Normally, i would just go audio out of the TV into the amp, that way, the TV can adjust for any delay and send out the corrected audio in snyc. What can you guys tell me about that? I will be upgrading later to an HDMI switching tuner soon, but for now, its a cheap $200 non video switching amp / tuner. Do i have anything to worry about here?

5. I need a power conditioner, right? - what is a good recommendation for a power conditioner? I'm looking to spend $200 or $300 for a good one that will ensure that my power is clean and my gear protected.


thanks!
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