Signature Elite 141 Owners Thread - Page 31

Michael Chen is coming to Toronto soon (I can't remember the dates). He's almost booked.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1058269

I dont know how to explain this any better, first set your av selection to game, then push "home menu" button on the remote, then scroll down to "picture" and select, then scroll down to "pro adj" and select, if i remember right now you need to scroll to the second page and it will say "game control pref" change to "on". if you have a 141 its a little different but pretty much the same.

I had the 151 connected to the wall outlet it buzzed really loud, i then had it connected to a Panamax 5400 and it buzzed really loud, and then a Panamax 5300 and it still buzzed really loud. the only thing that helped the buzz was swapping it for a 141.

Yeah, I would recommend him. He did a good job on my pro-150 last year.
(I'm in the GTA - Greater Toronto Area)

So,

I got my Equitech balanced power conditioner plugged in and powered on. Sad to say but no change in the buzz. To describe it more it only comes on when an image is displayed but you can certainly hear it.

Even if you have nothing displayed and pull up the menu the buzz starts. If the menu disappears and the screen is completely blank it goes away. Kind of like the panel energizes then kind goes into a soft off state.

At any rate I can eliminate power as a cause. So i'll go through the break in as recommended and see if it reduces over time. The buzz seems to be the loudest at the bottom of the Screen. What have others seen...is there anyone with absolutely zero buzz or is my hearing just that good that it bugs just me?

Silly I see you say virtually no buzz...so that might describe what I have as I can't hear really hear it with any sort of ambient noise. Has anyone asked Pioneer about this, if not I'm going to call them and ask.

I've got a friend who is an audio engineer. He is going to analyse it and let me know if its the panel itself or something mechanical.

-TAJ

Honestly Taj, you're beating a dead horse man. We've discussed the buzzing to
death on the buzz thread and it almost always ends up being the same: the
only way to get rid of it is either replace the panel or use powersave2 and lose
some of your brightness.

BTW, a notable cause is the way the glass panel is bonded to the TV. Seems if
it's not bonded uniformly, it'll reverberate.

It has been discussed before, the buzzing is not interference or power quality. Our 8G friends have verified this time and again.

My panel(s) have been connected through a Monster Power 5100 MKII power conditioner. The buzzing varies depending whats on the screen. If I go into a DirecTV menu vs. a black screen, vs a normal screen, the buzz loudness changes. I am sitting 12 feet or so from the panel and I can clearly hear it along with the dialogue of the show I am watching. In a quiet room with no sound, it is very noticeable. With normal programming, the volume varies, but no program is totally silent and during the quieter times and scene changes, the buzz is very apparent.

I may try and get a third panel in a couple weeks. I will give this panel time to fully break in just as I did the last, but I will try and get a replacement in three weeks or so.

A little buzz is not a big deal. 5 or 8 feet is fine provided I can't hear it where I sit and it doesn't change in intensity. This buzz is also most noticeable when sitting dead center in front of the panel. If you move off axis, it diminishes. 150 owners have suggested putting a stack of washers under the front of the stand in order to tilt the panel backwards which decreases the buzz at the seating position. The buzz is also emanating directly from the glass itself just to be clear.

I opted for the 141 so that I would not have this buzz issue. So far I am disappointed. The picture looks awesome, but this volume buzz is really not acceptable in a $7k display.

For those of you worried about glare, I have good news. My display is located in my family room currently until my theater is done. this room is two stories with floor to ceiling windows that face west on one wall. The panel is in front of the windows to avoid direct sunlight. I had a Sony XBR tube tv in this position previously and watching TV in the mid afternoon with reflections off the wall behind the seating position made watching TV nearly impossible. With the 141, the glare is greatly reduced and haven't come across a situation yet where I could not see the tv clearly or watch a show. The anti-glare coating seems to be working well. Now in a bright room, you aren't going to get perfect color saturation or black levels, but that is why we watch movies at night and not noon, so it works out great for us.

Hi Ole,

Doesn't seem like it, sorry.
The BT-8422 supports maximum 835mm left to right distance, while the fixed width between the mounting holes on the Signature 141 is 850mm.

I suggest you order a Vogels VFW065 universal bracket instead.

All the best,
Ole Willy Tuv

Thanks, already did.

Ole

Note: that point is only IMO and not confirmed by Pioneer (like they've confirmed anything )

Anyway, the buzz that many are complaining about is due to the two substrates (glass panels) vibrating together. The opposing facing electrodes are at high voltages that literally move the glass panels like a speaker. We hear a high pitched buzz because the pixels/glass are driven at frequencies in the audible range. The volume and pitch of the buzz will vary with content because the driving frequency varies with content. The volume of the buzz will vary from panel to panel I suspect because the bonding of the substrates may vary from panel to panel allowing more give in some than others.

Pioneer is by far the worst offender because they have removed the 3rd (front) glass panel that absorbs/reflects some of the buzz sound.

So it seems that the best that Pioneer can offer for the enhanced QC and enhanced price point of a 141 is much better control of the dead/stuck pixel issue and a basically blotch and streak free image. As for the buzzing, alas, it turns out that it is most likely caused by the uneven ability to properly bond the glass substrates. Hmmm 7gs for a monitor that delivers a fantastic picture but sounds like a swarm of bees in flight (for some). Maybe they should be hand picking the folks and/or the machinery that glue these panels together.

Yes it is sad that there are some 141s that buzz. If my 141 buzzed I would be very unhappy and I would return it in hopes of getting a 141 that has next to no buzz.
One thing however is that one of the reasons why some Kuro buzz is because of how Pioneer designed the glass and it is my understanding that the glass and the way Pioneer uses it, is one of the reasons why the Kuros display is so good.

I don't think there's any proof at all that that's the cause of buzzing. Since other plasmas buzz too and they don't have the same glass structure, I would be a bit skeptical.

Skepticism is a good thing...What is unequivocal however, is the fact that a number: more than a few, fewer than a lot, of 141s exhibit "buzzing". It would be important to try and identify the cause(s) of this buzzing and learn if something can be done. At the very least in the hopes that the 10Gs are cured, but perhaps with a more optimistic outcome that helps the currently afflicted 9G owners and buyers-to-be. The poorly bonded glass theory seems to be to be a fairly logical explanation since other possible sources of buzzing have been identified and tested and seem not to be the root cause.
---Where is Buzz Lightyear when you need him?

Plasmas buzz, plasmas have always buzzed and it's probably likely that tomorrow's plasmas will buzz. Anyone buying a plasma should go in to the purchase expecting a buzz and feel very fortunate if they hear no buzz. Those that are sensitive to buzzing will almost certainly hear their plasmas buzz...especially if ambient noise is low.

Virtually every CRT I ever owned buzzed to some degree. I honestly don't know why, with the 1,000s and 1,000s of posts on buzzing, that anyone would be surprised their plasma buzzed. I'm of the opinion (I could be wrong) that most plasmas within a given model line buzz approximately the same degree. I think the reason that people differ in how they react or don't react to the buzz are based on factors other than whether the plamsa actually buzzes or not.

Why don't you read the over 2000 posts at the 8G and 9G Buzz Poll threads that have captured the experiences of over 1300 users before speculating? The problem is not as simple (All plasmas buzz or Pioneer sucks) as some would have you believe.

Nambit, xrox, highheater...

Thanks for your input. I was unaware of the 9G buzz poll thread. Regardless of how complex / simple the issue is and the exact root cause the fact remains that the buzz does bother me.

Some would assume, as I did that since Pioneer was touting the PRO-141FD so much and talking up parts quality and QC that this set would likely not be effected by the buzz or have the symptom greatly reduced.

I had read a number of posts about buzz prior to buying the set and was concerned that I might get a set that bothered me. Indeed my fears materialized in the form of this buzz.

Now I'm not saying that Pioneer sucks and I must say the picture is beyond reproach, in addition the fit and finish of the display are excellent. So I hope no one thinks I'm Pioneer bashing as, after much consideration, I bought one.

I guess what I'm bummed about is that the current Kuro design has this one Achilles heel. If the thing were near on dead quite I would be without question satisfied. As it turns out I'm not, and if you spend this much on display you ought to be.

As highheater pointed out this is not an simple problem, not cut and dry. It's like one of those issues with your car that only happens when you are driving it but not when you bring it to the mechanic.

I spent some time testing last night and indeed as posts by others have stated:
1. The buzz is only noticeable when seated directly inline with the display. Meaning if you stuck a laser pointer to my forehead and I sat down eight feet away the laser dot would strike the display in the center. If you are off access from the center the perception of the issue is reduced to an acceptable level. I can hear it but I can live with it.
2. If you set the Screen to power save mode 2 and lose some brightness again it goes away almost completely. However who would want to lose brightness....not I.
3. It occurs when the display is energized in anyway if it gets twice as loud when displaying bright white...I'd be twice as annoyed.

With all this said I have contacted Pioneer. They are sending someone out to look at the display, the Pioneer tech stated that this might be the same glass buzz which all of the sets have....which he himself had never experienced. Whatever that means...basically confirming and denying that the issue existed.

This kinda pissed my off and made me feel like Pio is covering their tracks and won't just cop that some sets have the buzz others don't and they don't want to replace the ones that do. To Pio's credit they were very prompt in responding to my issue and are sending someone out so thats good.

To end I promise no more buzz posts in this thread...though I may post about the final conclusion to all of this once I get it sorted with Pio.

-TAJ

Hey all. I want to check in about a few things.

First, I have sound!! The cable guys came out today. It took a long time to find the problem, and it turned out it wasn't the cable box. Somehow my TV input on my receiver is dead as are the optical inputs. I don't know how it happened. It all worked when it was set up. So now I need to decide whether to fix it or live with it. I certainly don't mind the TV being plugged into the VCR input, which it is now. I think I may be losing some sound quality though by having no optical. Ugh.

I've got a couple of issues I'm trying to figure out. When Value Electronics left my house, they had it set up so that whenever a 4:3 picture was on the screen, it would be stretched. When Time Warner came to replace my stb the first time, I lost this ability. I have not been able to get it back. I know how to stretch the picture using the TV remote. But every time I turn on the TV, I have to do it again. I can't seem to get it to hold a stretch. I think this should be done in the cable box. But I can't make that work at all. Anybody have any clues? The Time Warner folks gave up.

Also, I'm not loving my TV picture. It doesn't feel very sharp. There's not much pop to it. HD-DVDs look amazing!!! So I know it's not the TV. Should I use different settings for TV than HD-DVD? Am I just expecting too much from the TV? I appreciate any help on this too.

Thanks y'all.

You accepted the assumption that this is a quality control issue rather than a consequence of a design feature (single glass design).

Everyone should be encouraged to post their individual experience. That is why the buzz threads were established. Unfortunately not everyone's experience has been the same. Yours, however, is fairly typical of most that find the buzz annoying.

Like I've said many times, since buzzing, blotching and streaking are not considered defects by Pioneer, they are most probably not a criteria for "hand-selected" parts. In fact they are most probably not even part of the QC protocol unless the panel totally stands out on the assembly line.

The first step in addressing the panel buzz is recognizing it as a defect. And that has not happened yet and may never happen. And IMO the very fact that members here have had multiple panels with widely varying degrees of buzz tells me that process optimization could help the situation.

Try AV option Wide. That mode should only work for SD signals only.
Yes I would have Jeff use different settings for each source input when he comes to your home.

Hope this helps but I am not anywhere near up to par with my 141. So I could be wrung about Wide.

Peter.

vashti, does your receover have a coaxial digital input? if so, use that, it works just as well as the optical inputs. as far as your time warner box, you have two options...one is to use the box and go into display settings and pick "stretch" or "zoom" mode for your SD channels (i am assuming you have a scientific atlanta box) the other is to use the "wide" mode on the pioneer. the pioneer will only stretch an HD picture using WIDE mode..any other mode will have side bars.

Vashti, I'm not sure if you had your set ISF'd yet (I don't think you have if I recall). If you did, that might explain why you feel the way you do about the 'pop'. Very few people that have watched TV over the years, will think their TV has the same 'pop' that it did before the set was ISF'd.

It's the nature of the ISF process to 'tame things down' a bit. The goal is to calibrate to a known standard and often times that picture is simply not as poppy as the picture of a TV out-of-the-box or one that was adjusted by the typical user. Rest assured though that the ISF picture is more 'accurate'. Whether or not you like that accurate picture is subjective. I'm sure you know by now I use CS1 instead of CS2 because I've decided to throw accuracy to a standard out the window and use 'accuracy to the real word as I see it' instead. To me that picture not only has more 'pop', but also looks more convincingly like the world as I see it. I've also never agreed with having the sharpness set at -15 or thereabouts. To me the goal is to achieve maximum sharpness without artifacts such as ringing. Artifacts such as that are very distracting and ruin the viewing experience. I can easily set my sharpness to -5 or even higher and not see any evidence of ringing with any program material I view. To me -15 does indeed present a somewhat soft picture. With the sharpness set as I have it, the picture is razor sharp without artifacts.

What I would do in your situation is to verify your settings for the HD DVD input and write those down. Check your settings for the TV input and write those down too. Then simply copy your HD DVD settings to the TV input and see how you like it. If you don't you can always go back to the TV parameters you wrote down.

Also make sure your STB is outputting 1080i. If it isn't, that could certainly explain your observations.

If anyone finds the picture too soft, I'd suggest they try setting DRE under picture detail to LOW or MID. Some people like this and others don't. But it is another option for your personal customization. Use the city backdrop behind Jay Leno for comparisons.

For some reason, I can't make the Scientific Atlanta box stretch or zoom. I see the settings. But when I hit select, nothing happens. I can adjust the settings using the Pioneer remote. But every time I turn it off, they disappear and have to be re-set. I'm trying to go back to the state where it automatically stretches all 4:3 content without having to be reset each time.

I'll look and see if I have a coaxial digital input. I have to move some furniture to get back there. I think I don't - but I'll look.



Nope. No callibration for me yet. I'll play with all the suggestions you guys are providing. I think it's not just getting used to a more natural picture though. Because HD-DVDs are just astonishing in their beauty and pop! It's TV only where I have this struggle. Ken, my stb is set to auto. I think that is supposed to make through the native resolution; right? Should I change it to 1080i?

Thanks all!

Good point.

It's worth a shot. There shouldn't be that great a disparity. On a good FIOS broadcast, Blu Ray is better, but it's not day and night by any means. They're both stunning.

I have just now had my boys put my 141 in my HT room. So tonight I will start to setup my 141. I will be doing calibrations and if I feel they are ok I will post them asap. But please remember 2 things. 1. What works for my 141 and use may not work for someones 141. 2. I use my 141 mostly for BD/HD movies.
Ken the guru of CS1, from what I could tell CS1 will give more pop. However I have just played with CS1 about a week ago and I do not feel I have the skills yet to use CS1. So for now I will use CS2 because I have a pretty good feel for that CS.

Peter.

So there are now reports of buzzing 141's??

Yep. Sorry to say. My 141 buzzes even louder than my 151 did.
I'm in the processing of exchanging it for another one. This will be my last attempt at getting a panel with an acceptable level of buzz (meaning I cannot hear it from my normal viewing distance of 12 ft and under normal operating conditions).