Analog 7.1 Blu-ray or upgrade to new Receiver - Page 2

I posted this on the 09FD thread, but applies here as well:


I still hear the herds of "lets go Digital, why use analog, HDMI all the way" debating this issue, when it is a very simple thing: At some point in the chain, there will be
a) Processing (decoding, application of Bass Management, effects, etc)
b) Digital-to-Analog conversion.

The important thing is WHO does it best, not WHERE it is done.

for example, using the 90FD as the transport vs, say a 84TSxi receiver, the obvious choice would be to use all the audio processing and DAC conversion on the 90FD, as it will be factors better than that found the receiver:


Conversely, if one where to use the 51FD as the transport, and pair it up to a high end receiver or Processor, such as the SC-09TX for example, the obvious choice would be to let the SC-09TX do all the processing, and DAC conversion:



and then of course, you got more complicated situations, in which sometimes it is better to do it in the transport, and sometimes in the processor. Take my example, for example: The Proceed AVP2+6 is, arguably, one of the best analog processors to date! Extremely accurate, transparent, and musical, with dual differential DACs per main channel, four "SHARC" 32-bit fixed/floating point processors, intelligent FIFO digital input buffers, etc, etc....basically a Mark levinson no.40 in a small package. However, it lacks the capability of handling newer HDR audio tracks. In this situation, given its musical prowess and magnificent DD and DTS decoding (with full THX Ultra2 Post Processing), it is best to let the AVP2 do all the CD and DVD processing and DAC (blue line: bitstreamed via Digicoax or Toslink). Conversely, you would want a capable transport to be able to do all the SACD/DVDA decoding, as well as all the new HDR audio processing, apply the necessary BM, and send it to the AVP2 for preamplification only, prior to going to the Amp stage:



there are other combinations thereof as well.....Again, the importance should be put on WHO does the best processing/DAC, not WHERE it is done.

-Sherv

Please don't anger our HDMI Overlords with common sense.



Thanks for the informative post!

Sherv,

While I totally agree with your argument, not everyone willing to spend $1k+ on a BD player plus $4k+ on an AVR

You just don't get any decent speaker and bass management on typical $500 to $700 BD players. On the other hand, new crop of consumer AVRs that have much better speaker and bass management than any BD players in addition to room EQ and digital processing can be had for $300 to $500. So for total of $1k (BD + AVR), it will satisfy most ppl without breaking the bank. In addition, spend a little bit more on a good AVR that has better DAC, processing and power handling can benefit not only watching Blu-Ray movies but also regular cable or sat HDTV watching, hi-res music, HT gaming etc.

Digital make it easier and cheaper to achive outstanding AQ, though not necessary better.

you are correct Foxbat. that's why I put the disclaimer above that there are more combinations thereof, including price considerations.

you hit it on the nail: for those looking to start from scratch, going digital is the absolute and ONLY way to really do this efficiently. No arguments. Slap any good BD player with bitstreaming capabilities (or even LPCM via HDMI output) to a decent AVR with all the HDR codecs (they start at the $400 Onkyo 605, for example), and you are set....good connectivity, and good quality for the price.

But in the spirit of this thread, where the OP already has a 3805 reciever (with much better DACs and Processing than those found on current $500 AVRs), an option he SHOULD consider is where is the best processing going to occur for him, and what is the bulk of his viewing.

I think he really has two options:

a)to sell the 3805, and get any good BR player (~$500) and a decent AVR with comparable SQ as his 3805 (which would mean something along the 2809 at a minimum, or yammy 3800, or Onkyo 806, etc) which would be another $1500 at least.

b) keep his 3805 if he is happy, and simply add something like the Denon 3800 (street ~$1700), Marantz 8002 (~$1650) or upcoming 09FD (~$2k), all of which will have better audio analog sections than his reciever, and a full slate of BM features.


again, there are many many options, and is good to point out ALL the pros/cons, not just jump on canned bandwagon.

I can fully understand the dilema. I have a Sony STR-DA777ES receiver. It was short lived due to it having the (literally) exact same components as sony's top of the line seperates at half the price. It doesn't even have component video switching, I use the Audio Authority automatic switcher. The DACs, pre-amp, and push-pull amps sound better than any major brand reciever imo, so I'm loathe to give that up just for 2 surround formats that I'm not even sure (since I haven't heard them personally) sound noticably better.

But, I'm also only wanting 1 DVD player to save shelf space, so my wish list is a Blu-Ray player that does decent upconversion of standard DVD, outputs the HD audio formats through 5.1 analog (I'll still use the receiver for everything else), operates relatively quickly, and doesn't have bugs. How the heck hardware has bugs is crazy to me. I remember when DVD players first came out, they just "worked".

mike

I have the Denon 5803 as well and I wasn't aware that it is capable of full bass management on the analog inputs. Are you sure of this? Where on the Denon do I find these settings? PM me if you don't want to post here.

Thanks!

Ken

That's what I'll be doing. I currently have a Pioneer Elite VSX-56txi receiver that I paid over $2000 for 3.5 years ago. I've auditioned several receivers over the last year (including the Denon 3808, Pio 94txh and a few others) and haven't found any that sound as good as my 56. I'm going to give the 550 a shot. If there's something about it I don't like, I'll bite the bullet and get a new receiver, but I'm not going to give up on my 56 until I've exhausted all the options. They just don't make them like that anymore.

Excellent post. For people that already have a decent AVR the only source that will likely benefit from going to an HDMI receiver is the Blu-ray player. I believe the old receiver will as good or better than the new with DD or DTS over digital or optical from DVD players, set-top boxes, etc. For many of us the only problem is getting HD audio with good amplification.

I would be interested in knowing if anybody has compared a lot of DTS on a really good AVR to DTS-HDMA on a mediocre AVR. That would be an interesting comparison.

I have:

DTS (1.5Mbps) from a Toshiba HD-A2 (Toslink) to a Denon 5308.
vs
DTS-MA from a PS3 (LPCM) to a Onkyo 705.


the results where as expected: DTS-MA was the clear winner, and by a fairly bog margin. All the best DACs in the world, all the dual differential setups per channel, all the cute bells and whistles cannot overcome a lossy compressed audio track at a max 1.5mpbs to a Lossless track, bit by bit identical to the studio, at rates of 6-10 Mpbs.

you just can't cheat physics.

mind you, the rest of the chain was the same.

That is one factor that makes this so complicated. How do you think a PS3 sending multichannel DTS-HDMA decoded LCPM to a one year old Onkyo 674 (HDMI 1.2?) would compare to send analog from something like the Pioneer 51FD to a 3 year old $1200 Pioneer Elite VSX-53TX AVR?

So, you are comparing different movies. That's called apples vs oranges. You have to compare the same movie and same sound track, i.e. set your PS3 to ouput via SPDIF (to bitstream DTS core from DTS MA) and compare to decoded DTS-HD MA via HDMI. I'd bet you can't really tell a big difference between the two.

no, not really.

The Mummy Returns HD-DVD vs BLu-ray, both DTS-MA

DTS-core on HD-DVD (1.5mbps) vs DTS-MA on Bluray. Same signal path everywhere else, same speakers.

I believe that is apples to apples.

Aren't you using different avr's in the comparison?

I'm not necessarily advocating either side of this debate, but if that is the case, then it's not apples to apples.

reread the question posted above.

the question is what would be the difference between dts and dts-ma, from an average transport to a good Rx, and from a good transport to an average Rx.

Ditto +1

Use your PS3 to compare the core DTS track and decoded DTS-HD MA track. I bet it would not be that dramatic of a difference. We're not talking 640 kb/s DD vs TrueHD here- DTS core at 1.5mb/s is really good.

BTW- how can binary code be related to physics??

Still apples to oranges.

MR HD DVD is DD+, at least for US release. If you're using an import HD DVD, it may be mixed differently.

Compare it on the same disc using the same exact track.

Since you're using digital audio, transport really does not matter as long as it can deliver audio stream withou drop outs.

I have a Sony-S1 Blu-ray player and I have a Denon AVR-2309CI coming next week with my HT install will I be able to get 7.1 with the S1 or should I upgrade my Blu-ray?

According to the chart posted here, your S1 does not bitstream any advanced audios and does not decode any DTS-HD codecs. You will still be able to get DTS core from those tracks though.

You're right. Looks like only the Pioneer 51FD will work.

Why wouldn't you consider this? The 3805 is a sweet receiver.

I saw many posts from angry Pio 51 pwners. Guess that player is just way too buggy right now and Pio is slow to address the problem.

Ahh. Sorry.

I have the Outlaw 950 preamp with 5.1 inputs but with 7 channel output for the amps. Is there any need to get a Blu-ray player with 7.1 analog outputs since my preamp only has 5.1 inputs? Do you have to have 7.1 inputs on your preamp in order to hear the Blu-ray discs with 7.1 sound? I hope that is not a dumb question. Thanks.

Matt

Not dumb, you can use 5.1 of the 7.1 analog outputs, ommiting either the side outs. I have a Sony ES receiver that does HDMI audio, but i'm not sure how it will react to TrueHD or DTS-MA so i'm gonna wait for the Sony 550 with anolog outputs for seperate audio/video connections. In your case the 550 makes sense as well.

But there are lots of players out there with 5.1 analog outputs. Your choices are wide if that's all you need.

Well I'm not is great hurry so I guess I'll wait and see what shakes out. It seems like other mfrs are going to have to address this need.

To clarify here, if you use 7.1 outputs into a 5.1 system you would omit (or not hook up) the rear surrounds.

The surrounds on a 5.1 track are actually "side surrounds" as intended by dolby/thx, etc. Rear surrounds were only added with 7.1.

Right, I can't speak for anyone else but if one has to explain the obvious all the time, like digital connections makes more sense if the receiving end is superior, then one has to wonder what certain members are doing here.

The Toshiba A2 would re-encode the DD+ track into 1.5Mbps DTS core for the optical output.

Thanks Mayhem13 and Nighthawk for the information. If I ever get a new preamp or receiver with HDMI then I won't need to worry about the analog inputs or outputs. Thanks again.