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Miami Vice comparison *PIX*

post #1 of 173
8/26/08 at 4:10am
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post #2 of 173
8/26/08 at 4:11am
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No I did not make an error labeling the screenshots

Finally the real advantage of Blu-ray tech specs bigger file size and higher peak bitrate can now be seen in comparison against HD DVD. The previous Blu-ray releases from once exclusive HD DVD studio Universal has been a letdown, The Mummy, The Mummy Returns and U-571. The Mummy movies may have the higher bitrates but it was held back by picture detail reducing DNR. It may not be to the degree like Patton or Dark City but I still consider it inferior to HD DVD. U-571 is on another level. Compared to the other two movies this one is not even subtle. I noticed it right away on my 120" screen or my 40" LCD or my 24" WS LCD. Why bother cleaning up the transfer then adding more DNR on top of it? Personally this is just a waste of Blu-ray disc.

Back to Miami Vice. Without a shadow of a doubt this is a worthwhile upgrade in both PQ and AQ over the HD DVD version. Yes it is grainy. Yes it looks harsh. Yes it doesn't have the "3D POP" some of you are looking for. But you know what? That is the artistic intent of the film makers and I will not criticize them for that.

So what did Universal do right this time? Bitrates was raised but no DNR was added resulting in more resolved film grain. Closer to the source eh? And lossless audio. Don't worry if you can't discern the difference between lossy or lossless at this time. I personally think the other just plays louder. Speaker upgrade should make it more discernable. Don't expect to hear any difference if you are still using downconverted DD sound or your TV speakers.

There is hope after all
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post #3 of 173
8/26/08 at 4:11am
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HD DVD File size: 20.20 GB

Bitrate: 17.67 mbps


Code:
                                                                                        Total   Video
Title                                   Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track        IME     Secondary Audio Track

Miami Vice: Unrated                     VC-1    2:19:04 21,901,807,616*~22,948,652,014  20.99  ~17.67   DDPlus 5.1 1536Kbps     Yes

Blu-ray File size: 35.90 GB

Bitrate: 29.53 mbps

Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                                             
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track                          Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------                        ---------------------
Miami Vice                                                      VC-1    2:19:12 38,587,699,200  40,840,467,504  36.96   29.53   DTS-HD Master 5.1 3744Kbps (48kHz/24-bit) DTS-HD Hi-Res 2.0 192Kbps


DISC INFO:

Disc Size:      40,840,467,504 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        Yes

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:           00009.mpls
Size:           38,587,699,200 bytes
Length:         2:19:12 (h:m:s)
Total Bitrate:  36.96 Mbps
Description:    

FILES:

Name            Size            Length          Time In         Time Out        
----            ----            ------          -------         --------        
00084.M2TS      38,587,699,200  2:19:12.552     0:00:00.000     2:19:12.552     

VIDEO:

Codec               Bitrate         Description     
-----               -------         -----------     
VC-1 Video          29534 kbps      1080p / 23.976fps / 16:9 / Advanced Profile 3
VC-1 Video          473 kbps        480p / 23.976fps / 16:9 / Advanced Profile 2

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
DTS-HD Master Audio             English         3744 kbps       5.1 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 3744kbps (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 1536kbps)
DTS Audio                       French          768 kbps        5.1 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 768kbps
Dolby Digital Audio             English         192 kbps        2.0 / 48kHz / 192kbps
DTS-HD Audio                    English         192 kbps        2.0 / 48kHz / 192kbps

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Presentation Graphics           English         25 kbps                         
Presentation Graphics           French          23 kbps                         
Presentation Graphics           French          2 kbps                          
Presentation Graphics           Spanish         23 kbps                         

CHAPTERS:

Number          Time            Length          Avg Video Rate  Max 1-Sec Rate  Max 1-Sec Time  Max 5-Sec Rate  Max 5-Sec Time  Max 10Sec Rate  Max 10Sec Time  Avg Frame Size  Max Frame Size  Max Frame Time  
------          ----            ------          --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  
1               0:00:00.000     0:09:38.328     29,041 kbps     53,058 kbps     00:01:39.141    39,649 kbps     00:05:45.929    37,154 kbps     00:01:30.132    151,407 bytes   736,238 bytes   00:01:39.933    
2               0:09:38.328     0:08:20.833     33,145 kbps     51,319 kbps     00:16:14.599    38,015 kbps     00:12:47.308    36,441 kbps     00:17:46.357    172,801 bytes   552,878 bytes   00:10:52.318    
3               0:17:59.161     0:05:52.769     31,468 kbps     48,425 kbps     00:22:48.742    37,328 kbps     00:19:53.401    35,704 kbps     00:23:37.291    164,061 bytes   457,677 bytes   00:22:48.784    
4               0:23:51.930     0:05:21.572     30,197 kbps     45,384 kbps     00:27:35.487    37,431 kbps     00:27:08.502    36,088 kbps     00:29:03.492    157,436 bytes   497,770 bytes   00:26:19.411    
5               0:29:13.502     0:10:56.489     29,451 kbps     46,856 kbps     00:32:01.044    36,615 kbps     00:34:21.476    35,351 kbps     00:31:19.127    153,545 bytes   670,434 bytes   00:32:01.086    
6               0:40:09.991     0:12:04.057     32,106 kbps     48,436 kbps     00:47:43.444    39,734 kbps     00:47:39.398    36,868 kbps     00:47:34.477    167,388 bytes   573,434 bytes   00:51:52.192    
7               0:52:14.048     0:07:20.106     26,980 kbps     41,742 kbps     00:59:23.477    37,860 kbps     00:57:13.472    34,005 kbps     00:58:49.484    140,660 bytes   459,454 bytes   00:59:17.304    
8               0:59:34.154     0:04:36.359     29,921 kbps     41,549 kbps     01:00:45.851    36,228 kbps     00:59:37.324    35,779 kbps     00:59:35.363    155,995 bytes   462,413 bytes   00:59:43.205    
9               1:04:10.513     0:05:40.924     27,558 kbps     47,297 kbps     01:05:27.924    34,816 kbps     01:07:45.770    32,768 kbps     01:07:23.665    143,675 bytes   582,607 bytes   01:06:35.658    
10              1:09:51.437     0:09:10.592     32,398 kbps     44,913 kbps     01:10:25.513    39,641 kbps     01:17:49.540    37,274 kbps     01:17:48.622    168,910 bytes   555,512 bytes   01:15:03.290    
11              1:19:02.029     0:06:35.353     33,386 kbps     46,879 kbps     01:21:15.829    37,499 kbps     01:21:41.105    35,885 kbps     01:20:36.707    174,057 bytes   562,192 bytes   01:22:41.331    
12              1:25:37.382     0:05:29.955     31,410 kbps     48,160 kbps     01:27:27.325    37,559 kbps     01:25:49.227    36,039 kbps     01:25:45.223    163,759 bytes   533,625 bytes   01:30:05.650    
13              1:31:07.337     0:04:26.099     31,617 kbps     49,678 kbps     01:33:09.751    37,981 kbps     01:33:08.082    36,506 kbps     01:33:08.208    164,837 bytes   550,219 bytes   01:34:45.597    
14              1:35:33.436     0:09:21.061     32,540 kbps     51,206 kbps     01:43:21.070    37,926 kbps     01:38:41.124    35,958 kbps     01:38:36.160    169,647 bytes   483,582 bytes   01:39:24.125    
15              1:44:54.497     0:03:45.600     29,946 kbps     43,807 kbps     01:47:30.402    36,273 kbps     01:46:56.285    35,312 kbps     01:46:12.575    156,127 bytes   515,364 bytes   01:46:26.880    
16              1:48:40.097     0:05:04.220     29,126 kbps     45,102 kbps     01:53:17.666    36,523 kbps     01:50:49.893    34,747 kbps     01:50:16.485    151,849 bytes   473,516 bytes   01:52:54.017    
17              1:53:44.317     0:04:53.168     30,512 kbps     46,655 kbps     01:58:14.254    36,899 kbps     01:55:24.793    35,073 kbps     01:55:55.323    159,077 bytes   713,310 bytes   01:57:07.646    
18              1:58:37.485     0:08:57.287     32,309 kbps     50,994 kbps     01:59:02.135    37,156 kbps     02:00:23.842    36,261 kbps     02:00:23.842    168,446 bytes   955,804 bytes   01:58:41.406    
19              2:07:34.772     0:05:35.210     29,097 kbps     41,423 kbps     02:10:36.954    36,542 kbps     02:10:44.879    35,171 kbps     02:08:23.571    151,696 bytes   681,873 bytes   02:11:58.702    
20              2:13:09.982     0:06:02.571     1,696 kbps      2,931 kbps      02:17:03.924    2,762 kbps      02:17:00.421    2,683 kbps      02:16:57.042    8,840 bytes     130,535 bytes   02:17:03.257    

STREAM DIAGNOSTICS:

File            PID             Type            Seconds         Bytes           Packets         Bitrate         
----            ---             ----            -------         -----           -------         -------         
00084.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0xEA            8352.55         30,836,054,335  167,708,188     29,534          
00084.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x86            8352.55         3,909,095,072   22,545,058      3,744           
00084.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x82            8352.55         801,845,248     4,698,312       768             
00084.M2TS      4354 (0x1102)   0x81            8352.55         200,461,824     1,305,090       192             
00084.M2TS      4608 (0x1200)   0x90            8352.55         25,998,964      149,346         25              
00084.M2TS      4609 (0x1201)   0x90            8352.55         24,430,518      140,170         23              
00084.M2TS      4610 (0x1202)   0x90            8352.55         24,216,221      139,041         23              
00084.M2TS      4611 (0x1203)   0x90            8352.55         1,875,551       10,754          2               
00084.M2TS      6912 (0x1B00)   0xEA            8352.55         494,005,832     2,827,229       473             
00084.M2TS      6656 (0x1A00)   0xA2            8352.55         200,462,336     1,174,584       192
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post #4 of 173
8/26/08 at 4:12am
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post #5 of 173
8/26/08 at 4:12am
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That green stripes on the side is there during this scene. It disappears after that.
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post #6 of 173
8/26/08 at 4:16am
Did they screw this one up too? We'll see.
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post #7 of 173
8/26/08 at 7:32am
This one should be interesting. Since it was shot with HD cameras, the image in the cleaner daylight shots is highly detailed but incredibly clean. I actually thought the BD version was a tad grainier in some spots.
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post #8 of 173
8/26/08 at 10:34am
Please don't tell me that Universal DNR'd this one too! Can't wait for the comparison pics!
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post #9 of 173
8/26/08 at 10:44am
The apprehension is killing me. This is one of my favorite movies of all time. I really hope those at Universal got this on right, or there will be blood!

Thank you Xylon for all the great effort.
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post #10 of 173
8/26/08 at 3:27pm
I love this flick, I bought both the US HD-DVD Directors cut and the UK HD-DVD Cinema cut.
This will be the third buy if its a direct port
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post #11 of 173
8/26/08 at 9:43pm
To tide us over until Xylon's Show DVDBeaver has some captures here. I haven't watched The HD-DVD so I have no idea if it looks the same. There's postprocessing which I assume is from the HD cameras that were used but my DNR detecter isn't going off.
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post #12 of 173
8/27/08 at 5:49am
Looks rather bad so far.
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post #13 of 173
8/27/08 at 6:00am
Odd, here it's clearly the HD DVD that's smoother.

And interestingly it's a BD-50 high-bitrate re-encode. Don't know how to explain the Mummy films, but this does support the BD-25 + lossless = lower video bitrate = DNR to avoid artifacts theory.
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post #14 of 173
8/27/08 at 6:05am
Higher bitrate = better grain and better resolved fine details. Check out the hair strands in the back. A lot better. It also helps that Universal apparently didn't add any DNR.
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post #15 of 173
8/27/08 at 6:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

I love this flick, I bought both the US HD-DVD Directors cut and the UK HD-DVD Cinema cut.
This will be the third buy if its a direct port

I have both as well. Well, technically I have the Aussie HD-DVD theatrical cut.

I can't tell any difference between those two screencaps. I don't think this one suffered the same fate as U-571.
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post #16 of 173
8/27/08 at 6:08am
If this particular movie doesn't show the benefits of a "no" compromise, "high-bitrate" encoding nothing ever will

So far the results are as expected - Universal didn't fool around with DNR this time and gave the encoding plenty instead of just enough bandwidth (~50% increase over HD-DVD).

Take note that this title was a very troublesome one for Universal's post house to encode on HD-DVD due to the "very limited" (IMHO) bandwidth. My good old friends at MS reportedly did/optimized this encode in order to make it happen on HD-DVD...by smoothing and filtering...

Also consider that this is a relatively high-bitrate HD-DVD encode to begin with by that format's standards.
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post #17 of 173
8/27/08 at 6:10am
I hope we get some high-motion sequence with excessive video-noise next.

Thanks for all the efforts, Xylon!
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post #18 of 173
8/27/08 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

No I did not make an error labeling the screenshots

This is what puzzles me. Why did Universal put DNR on some titles yet leave it off for Miami Vice on Blu-ray. The Blu-ray version clearly has more details. Look at Foxx's face and Farrell's Sideburns. This is the way to go.
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post #19 of 173
8/27/08 at 6:34am
Second pic (explosion) shows how much more detail is preserved when having higher bitrates and no DNR. On the HD DVD version I was unable to read how much HP those Powerboat engines had, now I can clearly see
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post #20 of 173
8/27/08 at 6:40am
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post #21 of 173
8/27/08 at 6:43am
What a difference in the last set! With American Gangster being on a BD-50, hopefully this is the kind of treatment it will get.
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post #22 of 173
8/27/08 at 7:00am
WOW! This is great.

At last....

So much for VC-1 at maxed out HD-DVD bitrates being anywhere close to transparency to the source (given the source is highly detailed, not filtered/DNRed/overly clean)

Even with this MS/"Amir" hand-tuned, highly optimized maxed out HD-DVD encoding it is not even close for a demanding source like this one!


Years and years of AVS discussions finally come to a conclusion. Stay away from DNR and excessive digital filtering, max out Blu-Rays bandwidth capabilities and all is good.

Just imagine what kind of marketing value the last set of screenshots would have had during the format war
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post #23 of 173
8/27/08 at 7:12am
The difference in that last shot is huge. Unfiltered sharp grain/noise vs ugly clumpy mess. Unfortunately I think a lot of people will prefer the filtered softer version. Tell them to go back to dvd.
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post #24 of 173
8/27/08 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

The difference in that last shot is huge. Unfiltered sharp grain/noise vs ugly clumpy mess. Unfortunately I think a lot of people will prefer the filtered softer version. Tell them to go back to dvd.

Sadly you are right...which is the whole trouble with DNR to begin with...

IMHO the last HD-DVD shot almost has this distinct filtered smooth Warner look to it. The look of being bandwidth starved with the need to cut corners...
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post #25 of 173
8/27/08 at 7:22am
Totally agree with TheLion and Kram Sacul above.
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post #26 of 173
8/27/08 at 7:28am
I totally agree with Grubert who agrees with TheLion and Kram Sacul.
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post #27 of 173
8/27/08 at 7:48am
Fourth purchace, comfirmed!
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post #28 of 173
8/27/08 at 7:48am
NICE. I am glad to see we have a universal title that actually offers an improvement in PQ. This gives me faith that maybe, just maybe, American Gangster will be better and I won't regret not picking up the hd dvd version for cheap. I have miami vice on hd dvd but I have yet to watch it. Seeing this makes me wish I did not already have it so I could pick this blu-ray up.

Thank you Universal...see what happens when you don't have a DNR lovefest? You get a better looking image that actually gives value to the higher bitrate advantage of the format.
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post #29 of 173
8/27/08 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I totally agree with Grubert who agrees with TheLion and Kram Sacul.



Okay, to contribute something to the discussion:



Great example of grain (or, in this case, video noise from the Thomson Viper) vs detail (hair on the side of the head) tradeoff.

Erase the grain, erase the detail.
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post #30 of 173
8/27/08 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Higher bitrate = better grain and better resolved fine details. Check out the hair strands in the back. A lot better. It also helps that Universal apparently didn't add any DNR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

If this particular movie doesn't show the benefits of a "no" compromise, "high-bitrate" encoding nothing ever will

Take note that this title was a very troublesome one for Universal's post house to encode on HD-DVD due to the "very limited" (IMHO) bandwidth. My good old friends at MS reportedly did/optimized this encode in order to make it happen on HD-DVD...by smoothing and filtering...

Also consider that this is a relatively high-bitrate HD-DVD encode to begin with by that format's standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I totally agree with Grubert who agrees with TheLion and Kram Sacul.

So everyone is willing to admit that Warner's VC-1 encodes could possibly be omitting some high-frequency details. And that Batman Begins could look better?
I've always said that VC-1 only works well with higher bitrates, looks like there's proof now.

I wonder if the same applies to AVC? Maybe Bay is right about Transformers looking better on BD, I still doubt it. Get a hold of that one quick Xylon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

re: VC-1 smoothing out details at low bitrates

Haven't we always known this? Warner has been playing the "how low can we go" bitrate game since day 1. Looks like Universal did as well.

Yeah, but most still don't agree that a higher bitrate will benefit the picture quality. And Warner has been BD exclusive a lot longer and had time to change, they didn't, however Uni is taking full advantage.
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