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Harman Kardon vs Onkyo vs the rest

post #1 of 42
8/26/08 at 9:58am
Thread Starter 
This is my first time posting here at AVS so forgive me if I am just asking the same question over.

I am building my first home theater system and I have a local company building my speakers, but as far as receivers go, I am just about lost. My guy says that nothing can touch the hk 354 right now, but I know that he is probably bias. I also spent about an hour with crutchfield on the phone and they really pushed me towards the onkyo 805.

Basically this is my problem. I don't really care about how awesome one is compared to the other as far as the video quality is. I am truly an audiphile and all I care about is which receiver is going to make my system sing. SQ is my priority. I want a high powered, great sounding, high quality amp for under $1000.

So if anyone can help me out I would appreciate any bit of info. I don't even care if you have another suggestion besides hk and onkyo. Thanks.
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post #2 of 42
8/26/08 at 10:03am
HKs have huge problems right now.

For under $1K, you have some options...and if you want all the latest greatest options then its really between the Denon 2809 and the Onkyo 806, yes they are both under $1K from an online authorized dealer.

I created a comparison thread for this topic.


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I want a high powered, great sounding, high quality amp for under $1000.

btw, you want an amp or an avr....?

Also here is the link to that comparison thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1060051
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post #3 of 42
8/26/08 at 10:09am
Is there a reason to pick the 806 over the 875? I am deciding between those 2 at the moment.
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post #4 of 42
8/26/08 at 10:49am
OP - I'd add the Marantz 7002 into the mix especially since you just want video pass through. It has fantastic SQ and is within your budget.
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post #5 of 42
8/26/08 at 11:07am
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I'd add the Marantz 7002 into the mix especially since you just want video pass through. It has fantastic SQ and is within your budget.


Do you think that not having Audyssey MultEQ XT (vs MULTEQ ) matters?

and its it actually under $1K?
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post #6 of 42
8/26/08 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjdingman View Post

This is my first time posting here at AVS so forgive me if I am just asking the same question over.

I am building my first home theater system and I have a local company building my speakers, but as far as receivers go, I am just about lost. My guy says that nothing can touch the hk 354 right now, but I know that he is probably bias.

In terms of interface/GUI, ease of usability, design or SQ I agree with him.

However it's a bugfest as it is now so I would stay away from it until they fix it.

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I also spent about an hour with crutchfield on the phone and they really pushed me towards the onkyo 805.

Because it's a last year model, 806 is already out and they are trying to get rid of the old stock before it's too late. It's SOP from any retailer.

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Basically this is my problem. I don't really care about how awesome one is compared to the other as far as the video quality is. I am truly an audiphile and all I care about is which receiver is going to make my system sing. SQ is my priority. I want a high powered, great sounding, high quality amp for under $1000.

It depends... how much is that "under $1k"?
As a big fan of HK's SQ but pissed owner of my 354 I say check out the Marantz SR7002, it's around $1k or less... perhaps Denon's 3808 as well - same price - though myself prefers Marantz over Dneon any day (too bad they don't have anything meaningful for $700-800...)

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So if anyone can help me out I would appreciate any bit of info. I don't even care if you have another suggestion besides hk and onkyo. Thanks.

Well, let's forget Onkyo, for starter...

Seriously, go and audition a few brand - we can only give you ideas but the decision comes down to your ears.
Since you are using a CI company they should be able to take care of some auditioning IMO...
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post #7 of 42
8/26/08 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Do you think that not having Audyssey MultEQ XT (vs MULTEQ ) matters?

Wow, our so-called EQ pro doesn't know it? FYI: if you check it XT only gives you 2 exta measuring point and some better sat filtering.
Whatever I heard I would never tell the difference by listening only...

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and its it actually under $1K?

IMO if you search enough/combine items/call in/etc you can likely get one for 1k. For starter try AVS, maybe they can get you one under $1k...
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post #8 of 42
8/26/08 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Do you think that not having Audyssey MultEQ XT (vs MULTEQ ) matters?

and its it actually under $1K?

Not having heard what Audyssey would do in my room I can't honestly comment on that. I had an NAD T760 for 8 years until it died and of course it had nothing like Audyssey yet still sounded great, so it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me...maybe if I heard it in my room...

6th Ave and some others occasionally run specials where it comes in well under $1K...AVS does it right at that everyday.
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post #9 of 42
8/26/08 at 11:47am
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Wow, our so-called EQ pro doesn't know it? FYI: if you check it XT only gives you 2 exta measuring point and some better sat filtering.
Whatever I heard I would never tell the difference by listening only...

When did I ever post that I was an Audyssey expert? I do EQ my sub systems and Im currently working on my active crossover designs but not once have I posted that Im an expert. Heck, if you read the threads, Im asking lots of Audyssey questions and I have read that the difference is night and day for MultEQ XT vs MultEQ, more filters the better the FR response. Since the 2809 has it, I do not see a reason not to take the better EQing. Let alone the Dynamic Volume control also and some very good video analog upconversion and scaling (for those of us not being nitpicky).
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post #10 of 42
8/26/08 at 11:48am
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Not having heard what Audyssey would do in my room I can't honestly comment on that. I had an NAD T760 for 8 years until it died and of course it had nothing like Audyssey yet still sounded great, so it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me...maybe if I heard it in my room...

6th Ave and some others occasionally run specials where it comes in well under $1K...AVS does it right at that everyday.

good to know! I do agree with your opinion. I do not know if I will care that much either. I have had lots of AVRs and with the right amps I have simply enjoyed my systems without all the bells and whistles. Of course my personal choice as nothing to do with what I post on here.
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post #11 of 42
8/26/08 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Heck, if you read the threads, Im asking lots of Audyssey questions and I have read that the difference is night and day for MultEQ XT vs MultEQ, more filters the better the FR response.

Khm, exaggerating too much?

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Since the 2809 has it, I do not see a reason not to take the better EQing. Let alone the Dynamic Volume control also and some very good video analog upconversion and scaling (for those of us not being nitpicky).

ROFL @ "very good scaling"...
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post #12 of 42
8/26/08 at 12:01pm
T2K, do you have anything intelligent to post? If not go away, annoying kids with keyboards bore the heck out of me....don't you have to go to work at Best Buy anyways?

Atleast Im trying to help people figure things out, you on the other hand are nothing but a troll in all threads I have read.
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post #13 of 42
8/26/08 at 12:09pm
I'd have to agree with the group here and recommend the Marantz. I did just here a Denon 4308 and it was pretty impressive, at least with Blu Ray. Personnaly I like the Marantz SQ more than Onkyo, and if it was in my budget I would probably replace my HK 254 with Marantz 7002.
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post #14 of 42
8/26/08 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjdingman View Post

This is my first time posting here at AVS so forgive me if I am just asking the same question over.

I am building my first home theater system and I have a local company building my speakers, but as far as receivers go, I am just about lost. My guy says that nothing can touch the hk 354 right now, but I know that he is probably bias. I also spent about an hour with crutchfield on the phone and they really pushed me towards the onkyo 805.

Basically this is my problem. I don't really care about how awesome one is compared to the other as far as the video quality is. I am truly an audiphile and all I care about is which receiver is going to make my system sing. SQ is my priority. I want a high powered, great sounding, high quality amp for under $1000.

So if anyone can help me out I would appreciate any bit of info. I don't even care if you have another suggestion besides hk and onkyo. Thanks.

This forum goes with certain trends. What I mean is a few years ago the the primary question was...which receiver sounds best? Then after a couple of years of that it was...should I add an amp to my existing receiver? Now the question has become...which receiver offers the best video qualities?

If you want just sq you really need to go out if you can and audition some different models/brands of receivers and see which ones sound good to you.
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post #15 of 42
8/26/08 at 1:03pm
In my opinion, discussing sound quality gets us nowhere. Which is sad, but true. There is no concensus on sound quality. People can't even agree on whether blind testing has merit.

People will repeat what they have heard. "I heard was the best. Every model in that manufacturer's line could sound different. So saying has the best sound quality is unprovable.

Now, if someone says Onkyo XXX123 is better than the Yamaha YYY789, and they took the time to compare the two, at least they made an attempt. You should question their objectivity though. I don't mean in the forum. I just mean that you should ask yourself, what are the odds this comparsion is relevant to me? The answer should probably be that it's not really relevant.

They almost certainly are not using the speakers you have, and their room accoustics are almost certainly different. And their taste in sound is also almost certainly different.

Which means you have to buy and try (with a liberal return policy.)

I personally think the quest for the best sound quality from a receiver would likely be a very long and expensive (in time and money) task.

Which brings me to my opinion. I stress "my" and I stress "opinion." This is the process I would go through if I was new to this hobby. (My process has been to buy a Yamaha that meets my needs. I have had good luck with the brand, and it simplifies my life.)

There are a number of mass market brands which appear to make a quality receiver -
* Denon (Anecdotal evidence suggests this brand seems to have less quirks than most brands)
* Yamaha (Some quirks)
* Onkyo (Very reasonable price; some accusations about reliability)
* Harmon Kardon (Some seem to really love their sound quality)
* Pioneer (Elite line seems to be the favored line)
* Panasonic (Rumor has it that they have a recent model)
* Sony (They are one of least liked brands in the list, but some people have been happy with their purchase; the cheapest models in their range seem to be the most suspect)
* Marantz (Not exactly mainstream, but they seem to have a very good rep.)

From those brands, you pick a price range. Then you figure out what features you cannot live without. Then you come up with a short list. You then read the threads on those models to see if there are any quirks you cannot live with. Elimiating those problematic models should make for a very short list

From the resulting (hopefully) short list, you can make one or more purchases, and try them out. Return the receiver if it does not meet your needs.

Otherwise, you can trust the word of a complete stranger on the completely objective topic of sound quality and buy a model which may not even have the features you need.
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post #16 of 42
8/26/08 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

In my opinion, discussing sound quality gets us nowhere. Which is sad, but true. There is no concensus on sound quality. People can't even agree on whether blind testing has merit.

People will repeat what they have heard. "I heard was the best. Every model in that manufacturer's line could sound different. So saying has the best sound quality is unprovable.

Now, if someone says Onkyo XXX123 is better than the Yamaha YYY789, and they took the time to compare the two, at least they made an attempt. You should question their objectivity though. I don't mean in the forum. I just mean that you should ask yourself, what are the odds this comparsion is relevant to me? The answer should probably be that it's not really relevant.

They almost certainly are not using the speakers you have, and their room accoustics are almost certainly different. And their taste in sound is also almost certainly different.

Which means you have to buy and try (with a liberal return policy.)

I personally think the quest for the best sound quality from a receiver would likely be a very long and expensive (in time and money) task.

Which brings me to my opinion. I stress "my" and I stress "opinion." This is the process I would go through if I was new to this hobby. (My process has been to buy a Yamaha that meets my needs. I have had good luck with the brand, and it simplifies my life.)

There are a number of mass market brands which appear to make a quality receiver -
* Denon (Anecdotal evidence suggests this brand seems to have less quirks than most brands)
* Yamaha (Some quirks)
* Onkyo (Very reasonable price; some accusations about reliability)
* Harmon Kardon (Some seem to really love their sound quality)
* Pioneer (Elite line seems to be the favored line)
* Panasonic (Rumor has it that they have a recent model)
* Sony (They are one of least liked brands in the list, but some people have been happy with their purchase; the cheapest models in their range seem to be the most suspect)
* Marantz (Not exactly mainstream, but they seem to have a very good rep.)

From those brands, you pick a price range. Then you figure out what features you cannot live without. Then you come up with a short list. You then read the threads on those models to see if there are any quirks you cannot live with. Elimiating those problematic models should make for a very short list

From the resulting (hopefully) short list, you can make one or more purchases, and try them out. Return the receiver if it does not meet your needs.

Otherwise, you can trust the word of a complete stranger on the completely objective topic of sound quality and buy a model which may not even have the features you need.

Ahhh...its so refreshing to read a lucid post every once in awhile...

And, you're right, it does take some time to evaluate these receivers (I'm doing four as I type) and it's a good thing I'm almost finished 'cause I'm ready to call it quits and move on to something else.
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post #17 of 42
8/26/08 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

T2K, do you have anything intelligent to post?

Hey EQ pro, did you actually read my first post? Because I did yours - very "un-formative" "HKs have huge problems right now."
Now look at mine.

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If not go away, annoying kids with keyboards bore the heck out of me....don't you have to go to work at Best Buy anyways?

Why don't you ask your boss, the head of the janitors, he always knows more than you do...
Easy tiger, I'm joking.

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Atleast Im trying to help people figure things out,

Hah, yeah: by yelling at people for posting their personal opinions - while incidentally we still have yet to get to know about yours.
Seriously: why does it bother you when people post their personal opinions? This is what this forum is about IMO.

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you on the other hand are nothing but a troll in all threads I have read.

You might want to compare my first post to yours here... yes, I accept your apology.
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post #18 of 42
8/26/08 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan711 View Post

If you want just sq you really need to go out if you can and audition some different models/brands of receivers and see which ones sound good to you.

My point exactly.
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post #19 of 42
8/26/08 at 2:32pm
I think that the tech at cruchfield might be steering you the right way with the 805 if sq is your main goal and maybe not the bells and whistles that the new 806 offers. The 805 would seem to have a bigger power supply and better DACs and should be available at great discount in comparison to the 806. I have the Marantz 7001 and the 805 right now and with my Polk speakers the 805 to my ears sounds bettter but as suggested listening with your speakers in your room is the best way to find what is the right receiver for you. I just offer my two cents on the marantz vs the Onkyo because if the OP is like me It is hard to find somewhere local that has marantz so I offered my opinion.
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post #20 of 42
8/26/08 at 7:12pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I guess there really is no way of finding out anything unless you just buy the thing and listen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdperry View Post

I think that the tech at cruchfield might be steering you the right way with the 805 if sq is your main goal and maybe not the bells and whistles that the new 806 offers. The 805 would seem to have a bigger power supply and better DACs and should be available at great discount in comparison to the 806. I have the Marantz 7001 and the 805 right now and with my Polk speakers the 805 to my ears sounds bettter but as suggested listening with your speakers in your room is the best way to find what is the right receiver for you. I just offer my two cents on the marantz vs the Onkyo because if the OP is like me It is hard to find somewhere local that has marantz so I offered my opinion.

You are correct when you say that the guy pushed me to the 805 because of the SQ. He told me the 805 had the burr brown DACs and would do better.

Currently I have an Onkyo 805 and a HK 354. I am going to test them out together. But now you guys have this marantz on my mind. Does the marantz 7002 totally put me in another league as far as SQ?

Oh, one more thing. I was playing around with the hk at the store and was surprised that you had to turn up the volume so far before you heard sound. is that normal?
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post #21 of 42
8/26/08 at 7:56pm
Marantz is pretty damn nice. I bought an SR6001 from Ubid....not as well-outfitted as the SR7002, but it's much better than the two HKs I auditioned (AVRs 247 & 254; HDMI issues with both). I have 100wpc on the SR6001 and it's loud as hell and sounds fantastic.
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post #22 of 42
8/27/08 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjdingman View Post

Thanks for all the suggestions. I guess there really is no way of finding out anything unless you just buy the thing and listen.



You are correct when you say that the guy pushed me to the 805 because of the SQ. He told me the 805 had the burr brown DACs and would do better.

Currently I have an Onkyo 805 and a HK 354. I am going to test them out together. But now you guys have this marantz on my mind. Does the marantz 7002 totally put me in another league as far as SQ?

Oh, one more thing. I was playing around with the hk at the store and was surprised that you had to turn up the volume so far before you heard sound. is that normal?

Can't wait to see what you think sounds better between those two. I have an 805 and love it. I was considering the 354 but PS3 problems ended that quick.
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post #23 of 42
8/27/08 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyndicate View Post

Is there a reason to pick the 806 over the 875? I am deciding between those 2 at the moment.

Yes, the 875 does one step DSD decoding if you have an HDMI bitstreaming SACD player and same with DTSHD-MA and the lower bandwidth HD audio formats, given equidistant wiring and matched speakers you can enjoy the music/sound the way it was meant to sound in the studio.
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post #24 of 42
9/1/08 at 8:15am
Thread Starter 
just purchased the marantz 7002 a couple of days ago and when I get all in I am going to test them all out. I am not looking forward to setting them all up individually, but oh well. sometimes that just what you have to do.
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post #25 of 42
9/1/08 at 9:51am
A few DAYS!!!! HURRY UP MAN... Inquiring minds want to know!!!




( I forgot to say please. )
( I am leaning to the marantz and the onkyo )
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post #26 of 42
9/1/08 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjdingman View Post

just purchased the marantz 7002 a couple of days ago and when I get all in I am going to test them all out. I am not looking forward to setting them all up individually, but oh well. sometimes that just what you have to do.

Personally I put HK's sound at #1 then right there Marantz at #2 - and then comes the rest.
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post #27 of 42
9/1/08 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugme1 View Post

A few DAYS!!!! HURRY UP MAN... Inquiring minds want to know!!!




( I forgot to say please. )
( I am leaning to the marantz and the onkyo )

I think ether would be a good choice... Just look at the features you want, then go out and listen and look at both and make up your own mind BUT....YOU SHOULD GO OUT AND REVIEW AS MANY DIFFERENT MODELS AS POSSABLE
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post #28 of 42
9/4/08 at 7:24pm
Thread Starter 
Okay, for all the "inquiring minds," I finally got the marantz (thanks to the holiday) and here is the absolute verdict in my mind. But first a few little details.

Each receiver was hooked up to a set of bookshelf speakers built by a local company who builds hi-end, extremely efficient stuff. The sensitivity is about 94. I only am comparing the receivers for their sound quality.

Anyway, here we go.

First, Onkyo 805. Nice and heavy, but I don't know why. Rated the most powerful of the three (130 watts per channel) it was surprisingly the weakest sound. It had a slight hiss sound to it that always was present. Nothing extreme, but it was defiantly taking away from the music. Another thing that I noticed was that the mids were a bit overwhelming.

Next up was the Harman Kardon 354. It was surprisingly the loudest of the three. Rated at 75 watts it made the Onkyo sound like it was completely over-rated. I loved the clarity and for a $800 receiver, it has to be one of the best in that price range. It was a great sounding unit, even though it was a bit heavy in the mids too. It was louder and then the marantz, but not stronger. I think it just had more noise in the 1k range.

Last the Marantz 7002. This unit is completely in a different league. As I said it wasn't quite as loud as the hk, but it was much more clean and brilliant. It was balanced, it was strong, and even when turned up at high volumes it was never obnoxious like the others, it was just beautiful. Even playing the tuner it was cleaner then the others playing a cd.

In closing the marantz was by far the winner. The onkyo was not even worth plugging in. It was weak and muddy sounding. The HK was great sounding but lacked a bit of clarity. Think of it this way. Take a cheap car audio system for example. It sounds fine at a low volume but as you turn it up the sound deteriorates. The marantz never looses it SQ. It plays pure all the way up until your speakers max out.
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post #29 of 42
9/4/08 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjdingman View Post

Each receiver was hooked up to a set of bookshelf speakers built by a local company who builds hi-end, extremely efficient stuff. The sensitivity is about 94. I only am comparing the receivers for their sound quality.

You know that they (speakers) were BY FAR the MOST influental element in your test, right?

However you did your homework, you chose what's best for your speakers - congrats.
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post #30 of 42
9/4/08 at 7:53pm
Thread Starter 
t2k, you are right in a way. Yes the test was done on one spacific set of speakers, but unfortnettly you can't hide the fact that one receiver plays more accurate and preciese than another.

It would NOT matter what speaker I was using to learn that an onkyo has a highly over boasted power rating. Second it wouldn't matter what speaker I was using to learn that the Marantz had a more balanced sound. These are not minor details. This would be detected probably on headphones.
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