The Magic 8 Ball Speaks Out On FOX & Analog Letterboxing!

Great news! The sooner everything is framed for 16x9 (especially sports) the better!

That would be a good move so they can actually shoot within the whole frame instead of staying inside that 4x3 box. I'm sure some of the analog 27" set people will complain because everything will look smaller, but they need to get into the new game.

I don't think it will be a big deal to most people. Many own widescreen dvds are used to it. I may be wrong though.

NBC has been doing it for a while. Shouldn't be a problem.

Broadcasters have been pushing the theory that "Viewers hate letterboxing," but I think they are exaggerating. In NBC's case, the studio insisted on letterboxing. It was not a network choice.

Much of what we see in commercials is letterboxed. Surely sponsors wouldn't want to use a format that viewers "hate."

Producing with two aspect ratios is harder than producing two resolutions (HD and SD.) Letterboxing the SD will finally allow producers to use the entire 16x9 frame, perhaps saving it from being usurped by logos, bug, and other pests.

Definitely a big step in the right direction! Now if Fox could just dedicate 18+ Mbps to the primary video stream and shoot football and baseball for a 16:9 frame they would really give the other OTA broadcasters a run for their money.

But this would have no effect on affililates that center-cut the HD feed as their SD feed, correct? So 4:3 framing isn't going anywhere.

The networks are planning to eliminate the SD feeds and send HD only. Affiliates won't center cut unless they are sending a SD feed either as a subchannel or as a separate feed to a provider. Most providers will just take the HD and downconvert. How will FOX deal with windowboxing (postage stamp effect) on 4:3 material? Are they also going to support AFD? With the splicer system it would be assured of being passed to the transmission, but current CECBs probably won't support it and many will likely be using center cut mode. On the other hand the majority of 4:3 viewers will probably be getting an SD feed from a provider. If FOX does use AFD I would guess they hope that providers will use it for downconverts. I wonder how widespread AFD support will actually be.

What does the M8B have to say about AFD?

WAHU Fox 27 in Charlottesville, VA has been doing it (on Comcast anyway) since they lit up their HD signal.

I think that is a moot point as the networks and broadcasters are going for the most part to lose ultimate control over how the 16:9 image will be displayed in 4:3. I doubt most stations will send a separate downconvert to a provider and even if they did they would need AFD control locally and from the network. AFD is effective but there is really little support at this late date.

IMO the broadcasters and networks have only themselves to blame for this. I think they just assumed that center cut framing would continue forever. AFD was added to ATSC after it officially began service in the US. NBC and Tribune are now pushing hard for AFD, and now perhaps FOX is joining the cause. I read somewhere on here that CBS has no plans or interest and I've not heard anything about ABC. The way CW is going I wonder if it will make it to the shutoff.

Why? That analog network feed is going away in about six months and is being replaced by a center cut downconversion on digital cable/satellite. I don't get why they waited until this year to start doing this, especially since analog TV is coming to an end.

Whats this AFD ?

Active Format Description. Here is a Wiki. It's a flag that indicates what the original aspect ratio of the program is so that subsequent converters can know how to deal with it. If a 4:3 program is shown on 16:9 HD with pillars and then downconverted with letterbox there will be a small image surrounded by black which is called windowbox or the postage stamp effect. A downconverter that knows the original program was 4:3 will automatically change to center cut and fill the screen. NBC uses this internally so they don't need parallel SD and HD.

AFD has been in use for some time in areas that use SD 16:9 such as the UK.

That isn't quite true even though some of that is true. We have been pushing the theory that 4:3 legacy material letterboxed on a 4:3 screen gives you a "box in a box" that people ABSOLUTELY hate and you do hear about it, even here on AVSForum. Still allowing legacy 4:3 to fill the screen while letterboxing 16:9 material has always been my first and only choice.

Marcus Carr



URFloorMatt

I believe URFloorMatt is correct.
When foreign sales of programming on network television come into play we are talking about 3rd world countries also. 4:3 TVs are the most popular around the world.
Take "Saturday Night Live", even with it being letterboxed on the SD feed in the USA you may notice all the critical action takes place in 4:3 as well as the HD morning new shows (GMA, Today Show) that get some foreign sales.
While I have always commended NBC for showing letterboxed programming starting about 4 years ago with "The West Wing" actual framing still protects for 4:3 or in some cases protects for 14:9 as the BBC specs require for UK programming.
It was done with 35mm film in years past when shows like "ER" would shoot with a 'common top line' and take a 4:3 image for the edit & broadcast. The 35mm film was protected for 16:9.
When the DVDs were created for full seasons the producers went back and retelecined the cut negative for high definition. The anamorphic video is presented on the DVDs starting with season 1. It really makes for a nice experience as you get to see more stuff happening in the background with all those extras crossing with carts and walking and makes it more cinematic than it ever was before with many walk and talk signature 'ER' steadicam shots.

http://www.digitallyobsessed.com/sho...w.php3?ID=5193

http://www.currentfilm.com/dvdreview...eason1dvd.html


As we all would love all programming to make full use of the more cinematic 16:9 frame there is big business that the producers think of for syndication to foreign countries for 4:3 TVs.
And now with Blu-ray sales specifically for HDTVs perhaps in another 5 years we will start to see more network television scripted shows start to frame for 16:9 5 years after the US analog NTSC shutoff.

When we see network television reality shows frame for 16:9 then we'll know there is no turning back for networks to framing for 4:3.

I know for a fact that DirecTV center-cuts the HD feeds in Las Vegas.

SNL looks hilariously bad with actors always going out of the 4:3 safe frame.

At least something on SNL is hilarious.

I wish they would start doing that on cable. All of NBC's programming looks hilariously bad letterboxed WITH a 4:3 safe bug. The bird and the ad are in the middle of the screen. I hate watching NBC on SDTV.

Not that it is surprising for DirecTV, but if they are center-cutting the HD to feed SD LIL, that is the absolute worst thing to do. DirecTV should just pass what they get and forget about thinking that they know best. I know they do that to keep the phone from ringing with "complaints" but they cause far more problems than they fix.

But after the analog shutoff isn't the HD feed the only source they will be getting? Hopefully the entire chain from network to provider will support AFD.

I think it's going to be center cut. It's been discussed since May when CBS and NBC were the first to move their bugs to 4:3 safe position. ABC later moved their bug too and the CW has already been that way. Since the analog feed will be going away, digital cable/satellite providers are going to have to downconvert the HD feed.

NBC and FOX are reported to be supporting AFD. In NBC's case support will also be required by the affiliates. Whether the providers support AFD remains to be seen. CECBs also remain a question. Without support I agree that centercut will probably be the norm.

I HATE the new FOX!!! I had to record SD(due to hard drive space issues) Prison Break. First of all, FOX is now using an ad-bug of sorts. Announcing "NFL on FOX". Plus it's letterbox(which turns into windowboxed) on my HDTV. Heck of a job...

^ Get a clue and delete some of the crap off your hard drive, or add a bigger drive. Your "drive space issues" don't make this step forward by FOX a negative thing for the rest of us.

It would have been a step forward four years ago when NBC did it and if we were including 16:9 in the DTV mandate. As soon as it's up to viewers, affiliates and cable/satellite companies to downconvert for SD, it's going to be back to 4:3 again. How many CECBs support AFD and how many cablecos/affiliates are going to have AFD capable equipment. I wouldn't consider this a step forward if I were watching on an analog TV either. I see no difference between last weeks episode of PB and this week's episode.

You tell me to get a clue, go buy me a bigger hard drive for my DVR!

What kind of crappy DVR and HDTV can't zoom letterboxed SD to fill the screen? I know that there are a number of older ones that can't zoom 720p or 1080i content, but that shouldn't be a concern with SD.

I think most or all CECB's have a zoom mode that fills a 4:3 screen and removes the pillarbars from upconverted, pillarboxed SD. The two that I've used do (Zenith and Philco). The Zenith has a "Set by Program" mode which is apparently meant to recognize AFD, although I've never seen it set to anything besides letterbox yet.