Sony Next Generation Blu-ray Mega Changer Anticipation Thread - Page 6  

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

Hi,

Thanks for the response, but with all due respect perhaps you are the one missing the point.

This is a thread about a user-friendly, mass storage device for Blu-ray discs. I'm guessing most of the folks attracted to this thread don't want to deal with the complexities, expense, time and effort associated with ripping hundreds of discs to terabytes of data. It is ironic that that the ripping process, in addition to being a hassle, makes the data susceptible to inevitable hard drive failures unless more expense and effort is expended to mirror the data.

In my particular case I have a dedicated home theater, without an equipment room, or a basement. So I'm not interested in noisy, heat producing devices that will not adapt themselves to my equipment racks. Nor am I interested in wiring a gigabit Ethernet network throughout my home and running it to a network switch. I'm just interested in an easy and relatively inexpensive means of cataloging Blu-ray content and delivering it to my home theater projector.

As you no doubt are aware, there are fanless, rack-mountable approaches to media servers, but even the DIY approaches cost several thousands. Would I eventually be interested in a media server that could download HD content as well as play Blu-ray quality content? Sure, when it's relatively inexpensive and hassle-free to implement.

Larry

Originally Posted by jmpage2

I can appreciate people with theaters wanting a rack mountable device. As to affordability, we'll see. Personally I expect manufacturers to get their pound of flesh for BD changers, at least for the first couple of years.

The real advantage to having a media distribution system over a network in the home is if you have more than one display. We have displays in the family room, bedroom and work out room. The ability to display content in any of these rooms is huge.

It sure beats having to go find out who has a certain disc, or what machine it's loaded in.

Originally Posted by jmpage2

I expect in about 18-24 months we will see several all in one boxes that simplify this for the total novices out there, basically a rack mounted WHS type device with Blu-Ray drive on it and expandable storage.

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

Hi,

Yes, I don't expect Sony or Crestron to be giving these changers away for free any time soon, but I do expect them to be less expensive and less hassle-prone than currently available media server solutions that meet my particular needs.



Full featured TiVos are now available with 1 TB of on-board storage for less than $500 each with the option of adding another 1/2 TB of external storage for about $110. As you know, these devices produce almost no noise or heat and are easily adapted to racks and shelving units. Through the use of inexpensive modems multiple units can be networked via the existing TV coax already running through our homes. In addition, wireless network adapters, sometimes bundled free with the TiVo, are also available to conveniently expand the home network.

Originally Posted by seggers

One correction on the TiVo softare point. It will allow to copy stuff to your PC if the provider has not marked it as copy protected.

If it is, then - unless you have a hacked version that ignores that flag - the sw will not copy it.

I have TiVo desktop 2.7 and I paid for the upgrade.

Seggers

Originally Posted by ResIpsa

Hi Larry,

I hear you, except there's no market, or should I say a very small niche market, for a mega changer blu ray player. Hell, there was no market for the mega changer DVD players, which is why they have all but died out. Blu Ray players aren't exactly flying off of the shelves, so Sony should say, "hey, there's no market for single disc players, but let's build a MEGA player and they will come?????

I don't see Tivo as a viable option. You are paying at least 500 for 1tb of storage, and now add monthly fees to that. Either 13 per month FOREVER, or 400 lifetime. Add in taxes, etc and now we're talking close to $1,000 per unit. One unit in the tv room, and one in each bedroom would set back a typical family $5,000. Much more expensive than already suggested alternatives.

Originally Posted by UxiSXRD

Sounds like a PS3 that's already been available for nigh on 3 years.

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

This is a thread about a user-friendly, mass storage device for Blu-ray discs. I'm guessing most of the folks attracted to this thread don't want to deal with the complexities, expense, time and effort associated with ripping hundreds of discs to terabytes of data. It is ironic that that the ripping process, in addition to being a hassle, makes the data susceptible to inevitable hard drive failures unless more expense and effort is expended to mirror the data.

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

For folks who are looking for an immediate and relatively inexpensive, user-friendly solution to archiving and networking high definition content, albeit with not quite the video and audio quality of Blu-ray, perhaps TiVo HD DVRs might fit the bill.

Full featured TiVos are now available with 1 TB of on-board storage for less than $500 each with the option of adding another 1/2 TB of external storage for about $110. As you know, these devices produce almost no noise or heat and are easily adapted to racks and shelving units. Through the use of inexpensive modems multiple units can be networked via the existing TV coax already running through our homes. In addition, wireless network adapters, sometimes bundled free with the TiVo, are also available to conveniently expand the home network.

TiVo also offers free software that easily installs on all your PCs on the home network. The software permits legally copying and indefinitely archiving encrypted SD and HD content from your cable provider to the hard drives of all PCs, including a remotely located multi-bay device if desired. The TiVo HD DVRs located throughout the home and connected to their respective displays have access both to the content available on all the TiVos and as well as all the PCs. The well-designed TiVo menus make it extremely easy to view play lists, select, transfer and play content to any Tivo-connected display or PC on the home network.

The downside of this approach is that even at 50 mbps it can take hours to completely transfer an entire HD movie, but viewing can usually be initiated in less than 30 minutes. As was previously mentioned, this approach is no substitute for viewing Blu-ray content, but it does offer an immediate and practical approach to easily archiving and networking HD content. The content, while not exactly "free" is already paid for in your cable subscription fees, so no additional expenses are incurred to buy the content as in the case of Blu-ray discs. Currently TiVo has an arrangement with Amazon.com that permits buying or renting standard definition downloadable content via broadband.

Larry

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

I have to admit with my DVD, HD DVD, and Blu-ray collections, as well as the content on my two TiVo HD DVRs (one with a 1/2 TB external drive), I currently don't have the need for archiving more content onto my PCs.

Originally Posted by ResIpsa

Things don't have to "be declared legal" to make them so, that's not how our legal system works. Things have to be declared ILLEGAL in order to make them so.

There has not been a court of competent jurisdiction that I'm aware of (and certainly not in my state) that has held anyone liable for making backups of their own DVD media.

And until that happens, it remains legal to do so. Period.

Eventually the issue will wind it's way to the SCOTUS who's going to have the final say in the matter, and much as they did with time-shifting, etc etc. I believe the final word of the day will be "fair use."

Some manufacturers have recently begun advertising "HD DVD / Blu-ray Media Servers" that can store HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs on hard disk. These discs use a copy control technology called AACS. It is our understanding that AACS must be licensed by the manufacturer of any HD DVD or Blu-ray disc playback device. We have been informed that the manufacturers of various unlicensed "HD DVD / Blu-ray Media Servers" advise their dealers and customers that "it is first necessary for you to obtain your own decryption software" in order to play or copy such discs. This unlicensed decryption software may be available from third parties. It is our understanding that the use of such unlicensed software to break the copy protection on discs is generally illegal in the USA and could constitute a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (the "DMCA"). Violations of the DMCA are criminal offenses subject to fines of up to $500,000 and up to 5 years in jail. Based on its current knowledge, Kaleidescape believes that the installation of these "HD DVD / Blu-ray Media Servers", including obtaining the third-party software to get them working as advertised, would result in dealers and/or their customers in the USA committing criminal acts and risking heavy fines or jail time.

Originally Posted by Richard Tywoniak

Agreed - there is the time, storage and for me, more importantly, the ease of use. I love my escient media server because it is so easy to burn dvd's and manage content. I did not have to open a manual or anything - plug it in and the user interface was extremely simple.

With some of these home grown media servers -- I would be very interested to understand how easy it is to burn a Blu-Ray disc. If it became easy to manage - it could offer a great cost/benefit (i.e. rent from Netflix - burn to hard drive).

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

Hi Richard,

As was alluded to earlier, the legality of ripping Blu-ray discs may hinge on asserting the concept of fair use rights. If you don't own a disc it may be difficult to make the legal argument that ripping a copy is a valid exercise of "fair use" rights of your property.

Larry

Q: What prevents someone from renting movies from Blockbuster or NetFlix and loading them onto their Kaleidescape System?

A: We believe the vast majority of our customers feel an ethical obligation to abide by copyright law. Most of our customers find the experience of buying DVDs preferable to the experience of renting. Our typical customer wants to build a large motion picture library, and usually decides to buy 50 or more new DVDs immediately after installing a Kaleidescape System. They are much more inclined to place a large order with Amazon or buy a DVD Collection from Kaleidescape than to make 10 or 20 trips to Blockbuster. Also, rented discs are sometimes scratched and will not import correctly. Every Kaleidescape customer must enter into the Kaleidescape Service and License Agreement, in which they agree "never to load or permit someone else to load a commercial DVD or CD onto your Kaleidescape System ... that you do not rightfully own and possess, and you further agree to delete from your Kaleidescape System any DVD or CD that has been previously loaded ... immediately upon selling, giving away, loaning or otherwise transferring ownership or giving up possession of the physical DVD or CD (with the exception of destroying it ...)" Under this Agreement, the company retains the right to immediately suspend or terminate the Movie Guide and Music Guide Services and all software updates to the customer's System if the customer violates this provision or otherwise uses the System to infringe upon the intellectual property rights of Kaleidescape or any third party.

Kaleidescape reiterates the copyright law every time a customer imports a DVD or CD into his System. After each import of one or more DVDs or CDs, the customer is presented with a notice and asked to give the following warranty upon the next use of the System's onscreen display:

"One or more movies or music albums have been imported into the Kaleidescape System. It is illegal for you to import content that you do not own. By pressing Select, you agree that you either own the imported content or that you will delete it."

We believe that this notice serves not only as a reminder of a customer's legal obligations, but also as a deterrent because other family members and guests will see it from time to time.

The Kaleidescape 1080p Player and Mini System prevent accidental imports of DVDs and CDs for less worrisome enjoyment of borrowed or rented movies. The import process is only initiated with a press of the Import button on the front panel, or by selecting "Import DVD" or "Import CD" on the onscreen display. Installers may further control imports by disabling them entirely on a per-Player basis.

For the reasons stated above, we believe it is unlikely that Kaleidescape customers will illegally copy rental DVDs onto their Systems. Kaleidescape understands and is serious about protecting intellectual property rights because our own products and services are based on a substantial amount of intellectual property.

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

Hi,

I just ran across this at the Kaleidscape website. As you probably know Kaleidscape makes high-end media servers.

This is their interpretation of copy protection issues related to ripping high definition content:



It is interesting that, although Kaleidscape prevailed successfully in a lawsuit claiming they had violated the law in copying legally purchased DVDs, they seem to be making this legal distinction for copying high definition content in the USA due to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. That is, they believe breaking copy protection on HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs is violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act therefore is declared illegal. I agree that ultimately this interpretation would need to play out through the court system to obtain a definitive answer. However, as long as media server manufacturers pass this legal liability off to their paying customers, it seems the legal test might have to be a suite brought against individual consumer(s).

Larry

Originally Posted by Nick Satullo

I would phrase the issue differently. First, who here has the software to be able to rip BD content from discs that are copyright protected? While I don't doubt that this can be accomplished, I seriously doubt anyone has even a remote hope of making something like that commercially available. That, I assure you, would draw out the big guns of Hollywood & Co. to devote zillions to litigation.

Originally Posted by Nick Satullo

Yes, Kaleidescape won the lawsuit against it, but DVDx had a nationwide injunction issued against its software (permitting copies of protected DVDs). Kaleidescape had the prior assurance of the DVD consortium that it was in compliance (and I don't believe you could use the Kaleidescape system to copy to anything but a Kaleidescape server), before the relatively foolhardy suit against it was brought.

Originally Posted by Nick Satullo

I have six Sony DVD changers controlled by two Escient DVDM-100 units. I have three Kenwood changers controlled by an Escient DVDM-300 unit. While it takes up a little space, it is not a big deal at all. I get the supreme convenience of a vast library to be accessed with the touch of a finger, and I am not doing anything that anyone could consider illegal.

Originally Posted by Nick Satullo

If anyone thinks that content providers such as Hollywood are going to sit idly by and tolerate a scheme where only Netflix pays the purchase price of a BD disc, and all others acquire the content for two or three dollars, then I think you're being naive. In fact, the very mention of that as a viable means of building a library will only make content providers dig in harder to defeat any means of ripping the content that can be conceived.

Originally Posted by Nick Satullo

Conclusion? Give me my 400 disc BD changer, because that's the most logical solution for anything reliable. It will be here eventually, in time, I hope, for me not to consider buying another HES-V1000.

Thanks,

Nick

Originally Posted by stefuel

I HAVE BEEN VIOLATED!!!
The bad news. My wife has spent my tax return which was to pay for one of these. The good news is I'll probably have next years tax return before these are really available

Originally Posted by stefuel

I HAVE BEEN VIOLATED!!!
The bad news. My wife has spent my tax return which was to pay for one of these. The good news is I'll probably have next years tax return before these are really available

Originally Posted by stefuel

"Considering this economy it would have been better to simply put it in the bank!"
You've been talking to my wife???


"What's yours is her's and whats her's is her's......"
A real man needs new toys from time to time, just to keep his sanity.

Originally Posted by marcus wood

Just out of interest, what did she spend it on?

Originally Posted by marcus wood

I think you would be justified in buying the changer on her credit card...

I was looking back at the CEDIA photos, and there is a notice behind the changer saying it will be 'available in 2009'. From what I remember the Sony people were suggesting early/mid year but I could be mistaken.

It makes me wonder what the DVP-CX777ES factory is being used for now.

Originally Posted by Nick Satullo

I too remain frustrated (enough that I just bought a HES-V1000, which I have not yet unboxed), just to tide me over until the 400 disc units come out. The HES-V1000 have sunk considerably in price, and I got one new for $1275.

Let's start a raffle/rally. Guess the date. Winner gets two new BD discs, one each contributed by the two people furthest from the officially announced release date. The date must be in calendar year 2009.

Rules: If you guess, you're in.

My guess: July 7, 2009.

In or out?

Thanks,

Nick

Originally Posted by Ken H

Take it off line.

Originally Posted by mastermaybe

Wow, I started my own thread like an idiot without spotting this, so sorry gang.

Have to say that I'm a bit taken aback by some of the naysayers here who seem to be implying that setting up a 20TB CPU based media library is both easy-peasy and cost-effective. I mean c'mon, give me the price tag on 20 TB of storage alone!!!

Nothing I've seen thus far makes me think the non-ES version of this 400 disc model will push north of $1000.


My hats off to Larry and others who have made extremely salient points about this "potential" device, only to be shot down by those who seem to think that even a fraction of a percentage of people are more inclined to construct one of these 20TB streaming monsters than purchase a $1000 (or less) changer.

There's not a huge market for Ferrari's, however, they're still manufactured and sold. And Ferrari was making a bit of money last time I checked.

?

James

Originally Posted by jmpage2

For one thing, no disc actually uses the full 50GB for the title. The average title clocks in around 25-30GB for the movie file including audio. This means that storing 400 average discs will use closer to 8-12TB not 20TB. You can get 8TB of storage these days for around $800 and the price is dropping steadily. The server itself costs about $399 and devices that can receive an HD media stream are now available for as little as $150.

Disc changers are a cost effective option for those who will do most of their viewing in a single setting like a home theater.

For others that might want access to the titles in a variety of different locations it might not be the best option, even if it's the least expensive.