This crap has got to end.. - Page 7

Oh yes it is, it's designed to prevent making any copy of any form whatsoever.

why not do both? just cut it off, and replace it with a peg leg?

for the record, I really am not pro-pirate... I just want to be able to use the products I buy, in the manor I choose... and that wont effect the pirates in any way what so ever...

Are we actually agreeing? Yes, DRM should be fixed. And, yes, it up to the people coding DRM to fix DRM.

My only point from the beginning is that DRM isn't bad. Bad DRM is bad.

Oh my God how true, wiser words have never been spoken!

No kidding. Like most other threads, 99% of us agree on 99% of the issues. We're just too dumb to stop arguing about the other 1%.

Personally, I'm just bored, and I like to argue.

If DRM went away you still wouldn't be able to make copies. That proves that it's not DRM that's stopping you. It's licensing that stops you. (Unless of course you're a pirate. )

And I'm sure we agree on most of the issues. This argument really is silly, but it's a good time-killer.

And for the record, I like rum and I like big boats.

does Honda make you call in every time you try to turn the ignition just to verify your license is correct? does honda purposely design their cars so that you can not install a non-honda stereo?
it really doesn't matter to me what our Benevolent Sony Overlords designed BR for, what matters is does it do what I want it to? or can I make it do what I want? I can drop a small block chevy (or a big block, that would be fun...) in a honda if I want to...


using your honda civic from above:
They did not design the Honda civic to exceed 50mph, if they did it would be like saying there are no speed limits...
yea I see how some people could think that made sense


not my problem

I couldn't resist. I need to work on that self control.

actually, they are designed to go well past 100.

And you can do anything you want with it... but it can void your warranty. And Honda does make you call in..... its called an oil change.


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Put your media on your server all you want... just don't come whining to me when they bust down your door

Sigh....

C'mon! Join in the fun! I'll start...

Your mama smells like DRM and your wife can't even spell it.

See! Good times!

Meh, not by much

A couple weeks ago up at the drag strip, you got all the kids with their civics and integra's, only to get schooled by Mustangs. It's funny how kids think adding an obnoxious exhaust make their car fast... lol

I actually don't think a single Honda had a trap over 100 mph...

While those with real cars (MUSTANGS, FTMFW!) trap at 120+ in the 11's...

And then you got old men paying $70k for vettes to end up run 12's, and us with late 80's/early 90's Fox Notch's school them all day long.. For about $60k less.

Whaaaaaaaattttt????? The buzzy, farty sound doesn't make you go faster? No way! How about the dual subwoofers in the backseat. Surely they make a difference?!

How do you feel about peg legs and eye patches? (asks the old retired fart in the midst of recovering from a total knee replacement and a detached retina)

A few posts back somebody pointed out that BR was specifically designed to NOT allow you to load the movie onto "other devices" because they want to sell you the same movie again and again for each device. If you believe that, then I agree......... Learn to live with the crap because it will never end.

BB

I guess you have seen the new Si's lately. I work in a Pontiac/Cadillac/Honda dealership (I am in internet marketing... not in sales).

I am a Ford guy personally (Mazda Tribute and Ford Mustang convertible)

the new Civic Si's (since 2006) have a 200 hp engine in those tiny little cars. They really can move. Of course, they cost 22K. 0-60 in 6.3 seconds with factory specs. My GT wil still blow them out of the water though.

When I was a kid, I had one of those first gen Civic Si's. I got it going up past the 125 on the odometer once. I thought the panels were going to fly off though. . ah, to be yound and stupid again.

BR is gone in 5 years (according to Samsung) so I guess it's all moot.

And even if you are old and falling apart, you can still be a Boat Monkey for me. There's always lots of low-skill, poor-pay work on the Happy Fun Boat! But also plenty of rum!

This thread is winding down, and my arguments were unbeatable. Can we all just declare me the winner so we can move on? Thank you for your support.

Damn, that really does make feel like an old fart now.....

My daily ride - 2001 BMW 740i sport



My "fun" ride - 89 Lotus Esprit.

lol... noooo not you... your cool.

Gorgeous cars, btw. The 740i is one of my faves.

We are agreeing that the current DRM is fubar, yes


I think at best, DRM is net pointless.


Let's see CDs are DRM free, the content industry would argue they are "licensed" the same as movies, yet I can easily and legally make a copy of a CD for personal use.

I can not do that legally with DVDs or BDs, thus I say the DRM is preventing me from doing something legal I expect to be able to do.


No, it's not like that at all. The situation we have with BD, is that the creators are actively, intentionally inhibiting novel uses of their product. It would be like Honda running a scan on your car every time you start it to make sure it's on an "approved" road, and that you haven't made any modifications to it. It would be like Honda installing technology that prevents you from installing ground effects, aftermarket wheels, aftermarket stereo, suspension, performance parts, etc, etc.

If car makers were to build their cards with technology that prevents use/installation of 3rd party aftermarket accessories people would scream bloody murder. Aftermarket auto parts are a massive industry, and auto makers understand that there's is significant life, and profit to be had for their products outside of their direct design goals. Look at the auto makers that are explicitly advertising the customization of their cars, and all the other auto manufacturers that have a significant presence in the aftermarket.

We should not be beholden to the creators of the product or the owners of the copyright/patent to conceive of, or plan for, or explicitly allow for every possible use contingency.

If products could only be used for or in their original intended/designed purpose, then innovation would be completely stiffled. CDs were not designed to be ripped to PCs and transferred to portable players. The existence of the iPod, Sonos, Squeezebox, and a myriad of other media players is due to the openness of CD and the fact that people saw possibilities beyond what the format's creators saw/designed for/intended and weren't prevented from doing so by technological measures. THe CD "aftermarket" thrives today, not because of the plans/designs/intensions of the creators of CD, but because they didn't lock their format down like subsequent formats.

Kaleidescape exists in spite of the design of DVD, and only due to a loophole in the licensing. How many more DVD server options would we have today if DVD were "open" like CD such that Pioneer, Sony, HK, Denon, Microsoft, and everyone else could make DVD servers and streamers?

How much has the DVD "aftermarket" been stiffled by CSS? CD's openness has lead to well over $10 billion in "aftermarket" sales in iPods alone, how much more in other media players. How much would a similarly open DVD have produced?

Despite all that today we're just starting to see an emergence of DVD servers that support "unencrypted" DVDs, but this is only due to the industry having given up on CSS, and companies being a bit bolder, but their penetration is still very small, largely due to the fact that they've got to skirt the edges of legality and due to CSS are more complex to use than most people want to deal with.


Neither was CD, but it created a huge ecosystem of digital audio products that, I bet, massively outweighs any of the negative effects of piracy. Do you think there'd be 100 million iPods out there if you couldn't rip your CD collection into iTunes and load it onto your iPod?


They loath a lot of things.


Exactly! Look at the whole set of innovative functionality that's been stiffled by CSS and the illegality of ripping DVDs.


And just imagine what sorts of products there would be if one could legally rip DVDs....

lol, I actually lined up against one of the new si's. Pretty car, but he ran 15.2 @ 94. The slip is prob around here somewhere. I only remember because it was the highlight of my night, becuase he keep looking over at the halfbreed, like he was gonna demolish it. I kept laughing at how he didn't even trap past 100.

The greatest part is his girlfriend was in the car, and he got schooled.

Also schooled a 350z, and a 280sx (who wanted a rematch... don't even know what he was thinking).

Got beaten by my fave car though (92 Notch, 331 stroker, P1SC).

Love the Lotus! I've put in quite a few hours on the new models (Elise/Exige) and they are really fun cars, the weight is really something else; it's like being in a go-kart on the road!

Ergo, you're a pirate. No wonder you hate DRM.

Sony/BMG has gone on public record and stated that ripping a CD you own is just like stealing.

Never mind that the same parent company's PS3 does it natively.

This is one of those things that makes no sense at all. Movie interests have totally distorted the meaning of copyright and twisted the laws into the craziness where they currently stand.

There's really 2 ways that you can look at purchasing a DVD/BD disk.

The first way is that you are buying a physical thing; a thing that you have the right to do anything you want to do with (rip, burn 1000 copies, light on fire, throw out the window, etc). if you lose the physical thing, of course, you have to buy a new one, but, intrinsically, you can also do whatever it is you want to do with it without violating any laws.

The second way is buying a right to view media, or the rights to a particular piece of intellectual property. The perfect example of this is Windows XP licenses. You can do whatever the heck you want with it; copy the CD, burn an ISO, light the media on fire, or throw it out the window. What you've purchased is the right to USE the intellectual property of someone else (in this case MSFT), that IP is delivered on CD, but the delivery media is totally inconsequential.

The movie (and CD) industry wants (and pushes) a hybrid (and, as you point out, repulsive) version of these 2 logical licensing models. You don't own the physical thing (as evidenced by the fact that ripping a DVD is illegal) and you don't own a license either (as evidenced by the fact that if you lose the media, you get to buy a license again).

This is a ridiculous licensing model. If it's a license to view the content just let me download the darn thing and setup a "store" where all my DVDs that I have purchased are available for retrieval (with their licenses). If its a physical thing, get over it when I rip it to my computer; it's MINE, I can anything I want to do with it (as long as other's aren't harmed, and YES, file sharing it across the Internet would be harming another party!).. I can rip it, transcode it, watch it on 10 TVs at one time (that are all in my house), and stream it across the Internet to my laptop in a hotel room.

And, yes, I realize that this argument is "pointless" and not going anywhere in particular. But it's debate, and that's what debate is about; trying to examine all the issues and make others see things from your perspective. If you think it's pointless, don't contribute/read it.

you silly old people with your cars...
everyone knows to have fun you need one of these:

well, you don't need a Buell as such, I just went with it since it was different then everything else, and unlike Confederate Motorcycles, I can actually afford a Buell...
and it can do 10.5 in 1/4... of course, only it can, not me... I would probably end up sitting at the start watching my bike go off without me...
of course if you really want to go fast in the 1/4, its hard to beat a 'busa or zx1400 ...

Actually.... we do scan the cars for abuse and have inspectors from Honda come out to look at vehicles with suspicious repairs.

CDs are DRM because the industry never thought this would be a problem. If they knew then what they know now, they would have DRM. And they tried to implement it midstream with bad pits and tracks but this failed.


And by "novel uses", I assume you mean .... pirating. No officer, I didn't steal that TV... I was just borrowing it.

And yes auto do have non aftermarket part. If you did own a BMW, you would know that you need a special tool to change the oil on the newer ones. Adding an aftermarket cruise can void your warranty. And don't just say that it can't. I actually know as I am in the industry and have seen it happen. We even had a Nissan customer whose warranty was voided because they got their oil changed at Pep Boys.

My point is that DRM has its benefits. It is not all evil. I think the problem that most folks seem to have most of the time is not DRM, but HDCP. Hence why so many people end up having to get AnyDVD HD.

And it isn't just a problem with Bluray for that. I had the same problem with Netflix watch instantly. I used to have my old HTPC hooked up to my flat screen CRT 27" for a time when netflix first introduced the watch instantly feature. I couldn't get it to play. why? because I was sending it out the s-video. Apparrently on Nvidia cards, they are worried that I might pirate the s-video video feed.

But with time, these problem go away and fix themselves. My Projector has no problems whatsoever. My HD2600xt has no problems whatsoever.

The only time that I have not been able to play a bluray on my HTPC was when I tried to select DTS-MA in Nero - codec problem. But then again, alot of standalone can't handle that either. Funny thing though is that it handles TrueHD just fine.

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HERE IS THE SAD PART.

Playback issues have little to do with BD or BD+. It has to do with the creators of the software playback programs. PowerDVD still doesn't have their #$%^ together. Nero is not where it should be. Microsoft isn't even in the game yet. WinDVD bailed. I have checked out the Arcsoft player. I probably should. Think about it. I could understand problem with a standalone with no way to update, but a program that is almost always connected to the internet, that can be updated on a daily basis to make it work, which they are selling as being able to playback this stuff not working. That is the ridiculous part. The and the even sadder part is you have to pay a premium in order to use their "beta" stage product. If the PS3 can play it back with a software player.... then why can't the PC?

Ripping movies to a media server and violating the copyright statutes by removing the DRM is a crime. And that is another discussion. If it wasn't, other companies would be able to do it. So..... by convenience and free use, you are basically upset that you are having trouble breaking the law. Let me get out my violin.


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I used to have a Ducati. I traded it in for my new toy..... 1988 Porsche 944 turbo. Not the coolest of Porsches but it is mint and like new. I really don't count it as one of my cars though. I gets about 200-300 miles per year.

why do you assume novel uses = pirating? just because something isn't blessed by our All Powerful Media Overlords does not mean it is pirating, at least not until they buy the law that makes it pirating...


any dealership will claim anything to get out of doing warranty repairs... this is not news, this has been going on since there were dealerships...
IANAL, but there is some statute/law/thingy/whatever that you can use, and you will win if you bother to take them to court over it... most people don't bother...

No, by "novel uses" I mean things like:

Making a media server with 100's or 1,000's of purchased DVDs available at the click of a button.

Streaming media from a central server to TVs all across my home; shifting seamlessly midstream from one TV to another as I get tired and need to go to bed.

Taking a movie that I was watching at home, and putting it on my PSP to finish on my way to the airport.

Opening up my laptop on the airplane and having a sizable portion of my movies there with my while I fly.

Going to a friends house and opening a VPN to my network; then live streaming any movie from my collection to their systems.

Never losing/scratching/damaging a DVD again (my primary reason for the whole media server, with the secondary goal of convenience).


And, no, I'm not "having trouble" breaking the law. It's very, very easy, almost laughably so now that I have learned all the techniques necessary to move my digital media to my networked systems. My complaint isn't that "it's hard" to break the law, or even that "it annoys me that I have to break the copy protection". My problem is that many of the things that most people would consider FAIR use of the media REQUIRES me to strip the copy protection (and thereby, break the law). I need to use AnyDVDHD with my HTPC to play BR disk; if I rip it to the computer (break the law), all my problems disappear. I need to DeCSS a DVD to move it into a file on my laptop so I can take it on the plane with me. I need to re-encode (and rip) my movies to compress them to the right resolution to fit on my PSP.

I have no trouble accomplishing what I want to do. My problem is much more abstract; I have a problem breaking the law to accomplish something that, in almost anyone's eyes, is simply a fair use of the media that I have purchased. I don't want to be a criminal...

This is VERY similar to what happened (BTW) in the software world. 15 years ago, if you lost your Windows 3.1 (or DOS... Ugh) disks.. Guess what? Your SOL. And there was DRM (of sorts) on the disks to prevent copying. The disks PLUS the license composed the "right" to use the software.

Software has come a LONG way since then, and it's where media needs to get to ASAP (to prevent an absolute deluge of piracy as systems become faster, and technology more accessible---Again, think CDs). A few months ago I "lost" software that is worth several 100 thousand dollars (well, actually, I deleted it accidentally.. Whole different story... A few hundred 2 proc VMware ESX server licenses, POOF).

Anyway, I now have no media, and no licenses; I had lost everything. What happened? Well, I logged into the site, and about 5 minutes later, had all my licenses and media downloaded again, and ready to install. And that's 1/2 a million dollars worth of software; retrieved with nothing more then a username/password. The media is insignificant, I have lots of clients that have spent millions of dollars on software and NEVER gotten so much as a CD. All you get is the RIGHT to use the product (and the licenses to activate, in some cases).

DVD/BD technology is back in the old "Ya lost the disk, buy Wordperfect 5.1 for 300 bucks again" days of software. And let me tell you; that technology was grossly flawed. Since that has died, I have seen MUCH less software piracy then I did in the "old" days. I never knew anyone who bought DOS (or even Windows 3.1 for that matter) everyone knew someone who had a set of disks that was still working!

DVDs and media in general are SO well suited to the "license file" type of DRM it makes absolutely no sense why they haven't gotten there. There's simply no excuse other then greed. I could design a "reasonably" secure (better then DVD/BD) licensing model that would allow FULL control over the files with roles based access controls to actually view the content in a few months. It's trival, there's 100's or 1000's of models to work from, all of which are working, and some of which are truly wonderful.

It's not done because of greed, plain and simple. And, because of that, I shed no tears when I see movies all over the download sites every other day. Offer the customers what they want, and they will happily pay for it.