Add a Black Border?

I'm not sure about the perceived improvement in contrast, but when I added a black border that fit the image, the impression of looking out a window at the movie scene, replaced the obvious impression of an image projected on a flat surface. So for me it enhanced the depth of the image more than anything else.

Absolutely it does, so much so that a "almost black" can look downright Gray when directly compared to an "Black Black"

'Tis the reason most everyone wants to "Mask" 2.35:1 images (...and before that 16:9)

The opposite comparison can be pointed to between a Bright White surface showing a "White" and a Gray surface showing the same "White". Alone, the Gray surface can show a "White" that looks perfectly acceptable....until it is seen compared to a "White" on White.

As further example. let me relate a recent occurrence. On the screen below, before the Black Velvet trim was applied, the rear wall the Screen was applied to was painted the same color as the Ceiling....a deep Charcoal . In complete darkness, with a 2.35:1 image on a 16:9 Format screen, the "Black Bars" looked exceedingly Black. The PJ is a JVC HD-100, known for not allowing hardly a trace of Light leakage past the Image Chips, and thereby producing a native contrast figure of 30,000:1

Under those circumstances, a Projected Black area (the JVC has a "masking system) should and does look very black....far more so than a PJ without such technology,



Yes it looked VERY black...so much so that the Screen's owner felt additional masking beyond that for the sides was unnecessary. Then the Black Velvet went up, he watched a 2.35:1 Movie and lo & behold, he related how distinctly different and so very much darker the Velvet Boarder looked....in complete darkness...than the visible Wall and the unused portion of the Screen. Suddenly, they looked dark Gray! Now he feels masking is an imperative.

Imagine such a thing...! Who'd a thunk it?

I noticed the exact same thing after I put up my black velvet border. Unless you are willing to cover your ceiling and walls with similar fabric or paint, I would not recommend it. My image also became very washed out because I now had an absolute black to compare my screen black to. Screen black was made worse by reflections from the ceiling and side walls. It was not until I put black fabric on my ceiling and walls that I was able to cut reflected light down enough to get my black back to where it is now.

Is it safe to say then, in a room with ambient light issues (white ceilings, walls that aren't dark, windows and daytime viewing, etc.) a completely black velvet border accentuates wash out?

Would it be better to not go completely black, but a very dark shade of grey?

No, the exact opposite. (...corn-fusin' t'aint it?)

Red-3 and xradman are not looking at the "Big Picture" as much as they are simply noting how much worse an area of the screen that is supposed to be "dark" isn't, and is made to look even worse when compared to a really dark surface.

As a token of concurrence to those comments however, it's those perceptions, and the disdain many feel for "Black Bars" that tends to make them such an issue, and anything that makes them seem more apparent is only going to ex calibrate such feelings of dismay. The extreme formatted difference between a full 16:9 image and a 2.35:1 just makes it seem all the more worse....but it's not. It's simply just not giving the Black velvet a chance to do as much "perceived assiting" as it otherwise would.

The presence of a deep black border tricks the eye into seeing "on screen" blacks as being "Blacker" than they really are. It has absolutely no effect on making things "on the Screen" worse. Nope, but it will point out areas that are supposed to be dark (...like the mentioned Format bars) are nowhere near as dark as a true "Black".

What is true, and was being mentioned is that reflected ambient light from white/light colored surfaces DOES work to wash out all aspects of an image, but blacks most of all.

Thanks for clearing that up MM!

Above is a contradiction. The presence of deep black border tricks the eye into seeing "on screen" blacks to be much less "blacker" than they really are, not more.

Thanks for confusing me again xrad

True but since in the picture there should be no "true" black, don't your eyes forgive the gray blacks in the image if you eliminate the manufactured black bars (that will appear gray) from the projected image?

Sorry to have to carry this dispute further, but what I said is absolutely correct, and is both proven fact and accepted knowledge.

The Black border does in fact give the eye a "reference" Black, and the "mind" then works to equalize the difference. Does it (a black border) make a dark Gray look Black? No...but it will make that dark Gray 'appear' to be a darker shade than it would otherwise appear to be. It was never stated it would actually increase the level of "Black", and if there is a comparison to be made, doing so must be done with the specific level of "Black" the 'to be compared with' area manifests. Stacked up against a true Black, a 'wannabe blacker' Black will always look lighter...because it is. Imagine that?

Much the same is true when comparing a muted White to a non-muted white. alone the muted white looks fine....perfectly acceptable. compared to a "Pure White? Dingy.

What has people confused is the representative difference between a Non "Blacker than Black" surround and a "Blacker Than Black perimeter.

Yes...the latter does make the difference between a projected or masked Black bar and an actual deep black surround more apparent. But it also works to fool the eye/brain into believing similar dark shades appear darker as well. Those shades can and never will equal the actual Blacker than Black surface, but their perceived levels of Black can be and are enhanced by the presence of that Blacker than Black.

Nice MississippiMan, I somehow understood that

It's always "Blackest" before the dawn.

Here's an interesting observation. For a spell now, Plasma/LCD mfg have been introducing a few sets with perimeter accent lighting behind the rear edge of the TV. The original goal was to offset the eyestrain many experience when watching a bright image in near/total darkness. However very quickly a more appreciative quality became the "cosmetic" aspect. It actually took a little longer for both the Mfgs and the buying public to realize that perceived contrast was also improved.....if certain conditions and balances were met and observed.

This has led many in Front projection to place Rope Lighting behind the forward Trim and between the Wall to create the same effect. When combined with a ultra dark Black Boarder that does not receive any of the effect of such lighting (...what with it being shielded by the Trim...) the lighter band of light does help make the "Blackness" of Trim, and hence the screen's content, take on a even more decided and deeper level of apparent "Blackness".

But the truth is, with many screens reaching out close to the side walls, reflected light from the Rope Lighting can easily wipe out any real advantage that was originally provided, leaving one with a pretty band of light around the screen, but decreased contrast (...browner blacks and 'tan looking whites")

The thing that is overlooked by so many is that most Rope lights are very much brighter than the lighting that is used on the TVs, as well as the fact that on some sets, the "Ambi-Light" has 'dimming" capability.

Once again, and as is always the case, "Balance" is the key to top notch results. A "Blacker than Black" boarder, back lit by indirect lighting of a low level can combine to produce a exceptional perceived increase in 'on screen' Contrast. But such "Ambi-Light" can also denude the image just as easily as having a Screen's reflected light hit a light colored surface and return to the screen and wash out contrast. Incorporating a "Dimmer" (...The Rope Lights must also be of the 'dim-able' variety) can bring the entire set up into a correct balance.

.......and that isn't as easy as it would seem to be.

In other words, there is nothing that bests Black for making Blacks seem Blacker. Unless you combine Black with just the right amount of "light". And in any case where considerable amounts of ambient light is unavoidably present, the presence of a "Reference Black" border will always work to improve the "appearance" of the "on screen Black levels" as much as can possibly be done based on just how much ambient light must be dealt with. It can still do that "because" the Reference Black Boarder gives the Eye/Mind something to use to "fool" the brain.

Shoot....my mind gets fooled all the time by such things....among other things.

Obviously enough ambient light to actually....and noticeably degrade the image will effectively reduce any perceived advantage a Black Border can provide, but even in those situations, a brighter Back Light can help mitigate such loss....but only to a point.

So get yourself back to Black and stay as Black as you can and you'll revel in the Blackest of Blacks possible in your given situation.

Thanks MM for showing me the light...or is that the dark?

I've had my black velvet border mounted now for about a week. It really does make a significant difference. Sure, when "black bars" are present at the same time as ambient light you notice how "unblack" the bars appear. But, the black velvet borders REALLY accentuate that window in the wall type of effect.

Right now I have The Matrix Reloaded paused during the "rotunda" scene? This is where Neo is fighting all the henchman while they pull weapons off the wall. The surroundings are fairly light (antique white stairs/walls/floor) and the clothing is black. To my eyes, the black clothing is EXACTLY as black as my borders. Now, I know my LCD projector can't project as dark as the border which is devoid of light. But somehow, that is what I see...and my PJ mode is DYNAMIC = torch mode!

I have read throught this thread 3 times now, and I am still confused. I have light colored walls and ceiling, and probably won't change in the near future. Am I better off having the black border or not?

Thanks
Greg

...........'n fer certin shur.

In your situation, it's needed all the more. The Blacker the Mo' Bedder so go with a good quality Black Velvet wrapped over a thin 3" trim such as MDF Base.

i did a 1 1/4" border on my screen.....makes the screen look even bigger!