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NAD M15HD Surround Sound Processor - Page 12

post #331 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertMcAdam View Post

No manufacturer designs a power cord. They use the cheapest off the shelf suitable cord available.

Electrical engineers will always argue that as long as the cable has the designed capacity to carry the load you will not hear a difference.

This has always been a bone of contention but hey power cords do have an affect on the sound from what I've found, in some ways more dramatic than interconnects.

I don't believe the Nordost is acting as a filter in any way.

Robert,

Did you see my question above? Next 200 hours....

John
post #332 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertMcAdam View Post

No manufacturer designs a power cord. They use the cheapest off the shelf suitable cord available.

Electrical engineers will always argue that as long as the cable has the designed capacity to carry the load you will not hear a difference.

This has always been a bone of contention but hey power cords do have an affect on the sound from what I've found, in some ways more dramatic than interconnects.

I don't believe the Nordost is acting as a filter in any way.


I love this topic, and I side with the engineer on this one.

To me its simple comon sense. I can't believe a 3' cord can make any difference when the A/C it carries has to go through a 99 cent socket then maybe 3 cents worth of wire to the power supply to then get converted to D/C via a mile of dirt cheap wire inside the transformer and capacitors or whatever else is in the power supply before getting anywhere near a component involved in the making of sound or video.

All the power cord has to do is be able to carry the load the power supply requires safely and be shielded so it doesn't affect other components. For a three foot length, that's not exactly an engineering marvel.

If it somehow did affect the sound then the power supply would be defective plain and simple.
post #333 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I love this topic, and I side with the engineer on this one.

To me its simple comon sense. I can't believe a 3' cord can make any difference when the A/C it carries has to go through a 99 cent socket then maybe 3 cents worth of wire to the power supply to then get converted to D/C via a mile of dirt cheap wire inside the transformer and capacitors or whatever else is in the power supply before getting anywhere near a component involved in the making of sound or video.

All the power cord has to do is be able to carry the load the power supply requires safely and be shielded so it doesn't affect other components. For a three foot length, that's not exactly an engineering marvel.

If it somehow did affect the sound then the power supply would be defective plain and simple.

They want to believe
post #334 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

They want to believe

Yup.
post #335 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

It looks like the Integra DHC-80.1 is fair competition for a M15HD head-to-head... Has anyone heard both units?

John,

Do you think you will be doing a M15HD and 80.1 comparison? I would be interested in your thoughts on the two if you do.

Bill
post #336 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by vi_c View Post

I believe the Integra DHC-80.1 and Onkyo 5007 are very similar spec wise.
I also heard they use the same components too .. though Integra is considered better in quality and warranty.

vic,

You are correct that the Integra and Onkyo use the same components when comparing say the 80.1 and the 5507. The Integra does have a better warranty (3 years vs. 2 years) but the build/sound quality are the same IMO.

Bill
post #337 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

John,

Do you think you will be doing a M15HD and 80.1 comparison? I would be interested in your thoughts on the two if you do.

Bill

Bill,

I'm thinking about it but you wouldn't want, *just* my opinion

I'm sure that, after the holidays, it wouldn't be hard to get some interested audiophile with a track record to stop-by and compare the two...

I'm long a bunch of equipment (read: too much) that I'm finished auditioning so I'm not going to be able to buy the Integra until I unload some of this stuff... (just let me know if you want to help )

Warmest Regards,
John Crlencic
post #338 of 748
[quote=JohnNY-C;17690185]Bill,

Quote:


I'm thinking about it but you wouldn't want, *just* my opinion

Sure I would. I think it would be an interesting comparison. I would expect the M15HD to be better for 2 CH but for digital sources maybe closer.

Quote:


I'm sure that, after the holidays, it wouldn't be hard to get some interested audiophile with a track record to stop-by and compare the two...

That would be good as well then there would be another opinion of the two.

Quote:


I'm long a bunch of equipment (read: too much) that I'm finished auditioning so I'm not going to be able to buy the Integra until I unload some of this stuff... (just let me know if you want to help )

Sorry can't help you out. I cancelled a new 58V10 plasma and was going to get the Oppo BDP-83 but bought new tires for my car today. I'm in cash mode for the Holidays so no new toys till 2010. January 1st is 2010 though.

Bill
post #339 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

They're one and the same. XT is the platform (digital EQ) built into the NAD's processor and it can only be accessed and configured by the "Pro" kit and software.

Even the stand alone Audyssey SEQ runs the XT platform, albeit with twice the resolution.

Interesting- The first paragraph seems to imply the MultEQ XT in the T175HD is the same as the Audyssey Pro in the M15HD but with a different interface, while the second implies they could have differences (resolution).

Do you know if there are any differences in the functional capabilities of Audyssey between the M15HD and the T175HD?

Bruce
post #340 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceOmega View Post

Interesting- The first paragraph seems to imply the MultEQ XT in the T175HD is the same as the Audyssey Pro in the M15HD but with a different interface, while the second implies they could have differences (resolution).

Do you know if there are any differences in the functional capabilities of Audyssey between the M15HD and the T175HD?

Bruce

The M15HD does not have access to the built in XT platform with it's own mic and operating software built in like the 175, and maybe that's where the confusion comes in.
Think of Audyssey Pro as an out-board "brain", the digital equalizer (XT platform) with the signal processor and filters is inside the pre-amp (or receiver). The "brain" runs on a laptop calculates up to 32 measurements, and based on that goes into the pre-amp's EQ and sets all the filters etc.
Audyssey Pro "capable" pre-amps like the 175 have a smaller "brain" built in so you don't have to use the "Pro's" brain. Both brains have the same EQ to work with.

With the M15HD I guess they decided to conserve processing power by not having the smaller brain built it.
post #341 of 748
Can someone comment specifically on DAC
Integra 80.1 uses 32bit dac vs (not sure M15hd)
How and where will SQ differ (32bit vs 24bit) in day-to-day use HD/cable/mp3
post #342 of 748
Perhaps it will help to quote two of the replies I received to my questions asked at the NAD Facebook page discussion forum.

First, decision not to include automated Audyssey setup has nothing to do with little brain or big brain - they for some reason did not want a microphone preamplifier to be in the box. Here is the quote:

"It was a design decision not to include a microphone preamp in the high end M15HD product. Therefore Audyssey automated calibration is not available out of the box. In addition to the Audyssey Pro option there will be a kit available for purchase which includes a high quality preamp and microphone (better then what comes with thew T175HD) and will enable an end user to perform the Audyssey automatic calibration. The thought there being that most users will want to get this hi-end unit installed by a professional instead of doing it themselves. That being said there are a lot of handy people that could handle this kind of set-up themselves, thats why a better quality mic and pre-amp will be made available."

Second, M15 does not use the same AM200 and VM200 modules as T175, it uses some "undisclosed" modules based on a similar topology, but allegedly utilizing much better DAC an much better op amps in analog buffers. Here is the second quote:

"So the M15HD which is a MDC model does not share the same modules as the "classic" AV Receivers. (they will be different, not yet released modules) The M15HD is using the AM200 Dual DSP topology only, but is physically different then the AM200."

Just too damn bad that it costs double of Onkyo 5507/Integra 80.1, plus additional for Audyssey kit. If the price was the same or even only slightly higher, I would forget about no differential outputs, about mono sub output and about only four HDMI inputs and get one! As it is, I think I will get Onkyo and spend the differential on room treatments...
post #343 of 748
Nice. Thanks for the info.
Onkyo for now
post #344 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreator View Post


First, decision not to include automated Audyssey setup has nothing to do with little brain or big brain - they for some reason did not want a microphone preamplifier to be in the box. Here is the quote:

.

That was an analogy for clarification purposes, I didn't suggest it was a reason they didn't include it.

The fact of the matter is the computing algorythms might not be in the M15HD, they certainly don't need to be, because it doesn't have the mic & pre-amp.

It's possible that the "little brain" is "packaged" with the native Audyssey platform and they can't exclude it to save processor space, who knows, which why I said it was a guess..
post #345 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

The fact of the matter is the computing algorythms might not be in the M15HD, they certainly don't need to be, because it doesn't have the mic & pre-amp.

This is very interesting. I did not know that there was no provision for Audyssey with the M15HD other than buying the Audyssey Pro kit. I wonder if anyone has bought the M15HD and found out about it after they bought it.

I'm sure NAD had their reasons for not including a "standard" version of Audyssey. But I think having the option of using the non Pro version or paying for the Pro is an option I would prefer. I can not think of any other mid to highend prepro that does this.

Bill
post #346 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

This is very interesting. I did not know that there was no provision for Audyssey with the M15HD other than buying the Audyssey Pro kit. I wonder if anyone has bought the M15HD and found out about it after they bought it.

I'm sure NAD had their reasons for not including a "standard" version of Audyssey. But I think having the option of using the non Pro version or paying for the Pro is an option I would prefer. I can not think of any other mid to highend prepro that does this.

Bill

Make no mistake, it's expensive, but the calibrated mic + pro kit and software makes a world of difference.
post #347 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

Make no mistake, it's expensive, but the calibrated mic + pro kit and software makes a world of difference.

I'm sure it is. Some day when I have a dedicated HT space I would very much like to try it.

Bill
post #348 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

This is very interesting. I did not know that there was no provision for Audyssey with the M15HD other than buying the Audyssey Pro kit. I wonder if anyone has bought the M15HD and found out about it after they bought it.

I'm sure NAD had their reasons for not including a "standard" version of Audyssey. But I think having the option of using the non Pro version or paying for the Pro is an option I would prefer. I can not think of any other mid to highend prepro that does this.

Bill

Well there could be a variety of reasons, but I think with the Master Series it's most likely they've taken the "less is more" approach and it was probably done as a compromise for the greater good.
post #349 of 748
Gosh so does having Audyssey in the Nad make it better than the Classe 800.

I'm impressed with Johnny-c's results considering his room which is a great test.

I'm warming to the Nad but gosh my CD's are still a priority.

I'm currently running my CD DAC throught the 7.1 inputs much cleaner than the CD input which dulls the sound in my M15.

Johnny-c you need to read GET BETTER SOUND by Jim Smith explains runnin in and lots of other basic essentials for any audio system. In fact great reading for any audiophile/videophile. I can personally vouch for this book as I've discovered the same things.

Great Sound and Vision go together.
post #350 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertMcAdam View Post

Gosh so does having Audyssey in the Nad make it better than the Classe 800.

I'm impressed with Johnny-c's results considering his room which is a great test.

I'm warming to the Nad but gosh my CD's are still a priority.

I'm currently running my CD DAC throught the 7.1 inputs much cleaner than the CD input which dulls the sound in my M15.

.

I wouldn't have a system without room correction any more, and the least I would settle for is EQ below 250hz. I'm of the opinion through practical experience, that the improvement garnered from good room EQ is far more beneficial or significant than say a component change like going from a Classe to a NAD or vice versa.

It's interesting that you find the M15's CD input to dull the sound, I absolutely loved its' two channel performance using the coax input.

Oh, and one caveat, the Audyssey graphs tend to be a bit "optimistic", but the results are genuine.
post #351 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I wouldn't have a system without room correction any more, and the least I would settle for is EQ below 250hz. I'm of the opinion through practical experience, that the improvement garnered from good room EQ is far more beneficial or significant than say a component change like going from a Classe to a NAD or vice versa.

It's interesting that you find the M15's CD input to dull the sound, I absolutely loved its' two channel performance using the coax input.

Oh, and one caveat, the Audyssey graphs tend to be a bit "optimistic", but the results are genuine.

'

Yes, that "optimism," and it really is optimism if you understand statistics, is a smoothing function applied to both output graphs.
post #352 of 748
OK. Does anyone have the specs or curves for the special EQ curve developed by Paul Barton (PSB)?
post #353 of 748
As I just surpassed 100 hours of use on this new unit, I first want to reiterate the excellent video and audio quality I am experiencing from all video source resolutions and in both digital and analog audio modes. BRAVO!

Now, I would like to report my two problems, as follows:

The first is a video issue. The "AUTO" setting within the VIDEO SETUP submenu of the SETUP MENU does not work properly for me. I beleive this may be a known issue to Lenbrook (NAD Support). This setting should automatically retieve the native resolution parameters from the video display attached to the Main HDMI output and apply it to the video processor settings. My display is a Pioneer PRO-101FD Signature Elite plasma which has a native resolution of 1080p/24. This plasma monitor also has a handy button on its' remote control which momentarily displays the resolution of the video signal it is receiving. It only shows the M15HD sending a 1080i/60 output. This makes a world of difference. (I've read anecdotes for several years how expensive video displays have superior scalers to the majority of sources so it is preferable to let them do the scaling. I've never found this to be the case with my $5500 plasma monitor.) As the DVDO Edge (which I liberated from my home theater when I installed the M15HD) has the same "AUTO" feature in its' menu, and succeeds in picking up the proper parameter from this same display, I beleive the M15HD to need an engineering tweak.

That said, the simple workaround is to toggle the unit out of "AUTO" and just specify your display's native resoultion. Fine. Just note that to save this information, you have to press the remote control's "right arrow" button on the "SAVE" option. (This is the only non-intuitive setting I've found so far in the Setup Menu structure ---- but is explained properly in the manual.)

The second problem is an audio issue. This is a serious, material problem. When I turn the unit on from stand-by it, of course, selects the same input I was using when I last turned the unit off. The problem is, with all inputs having a digital audio component, the unit SOMETIMES will not lock onto the audio signal (I get no sound.). I have to turn the power to the M15HD off and on a second time to lock onto the signal. (Turning the source component off and on does not help.) For example, if I was watching a Cablevision station when I last turned the unit off, when I turn it on again later in the day, the M15HD sends a proper video feed to my display, but no audio signal to my multi-channel amplifier. If I cycle the M15HD's power off and on, I now get both proper video and audio signals. Perhaps my unit is defective. Otherwise, this is a critical engineering flaw. Please report any similar experiences on this thread, as this is cause to replace or repair my unit.

-Dave
-Norwalk, CT
post #354 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Fine View Post

The second problem is an audio issue. This is a serious, material problem. When I turn the unit on from stand-by it, of course, selects the same input I was using when I last turned the unit off. The problem is, with all inputs having a digital audio component, the unit SOMETIMES will not lock onto the audio signal (I get no sound.). I have to turn the power to the M15HD off and on a second time to lock onto the signal. (Turning the source component off and on does not help.) For example, if I was watching a Cablevision station when I last turned the unit off, when I turn it on again later in the day, the M15HD sends a proper video feed to my display, but no audio signal to my multi-channel amplifier. If I cycle the M15HD's power off and on, I now get both proper video and audio signals. Perhaps my unit is defective. Otherwise, this is a critical engineering flaw. Please report any similar experiences on this thread, as this is cause to replace or repair my unit.

-Dave
-Norwalk, CT

Dave,

I got lucky and set my Video output to my TV's native resolution to start. In a sense, if you want your TV to do frame insertion, you're really setting it to your TV's native resolution in that parameter - right?

As for the audio issue: it's an HDMI/HDCP issue if you're using digital sources. You can't help that... Blame it on [MediaCo 1], [MediaCo2], etc... Your DVDO EDGE used a clever work around called, Plug-and-Play HDMI which may or may not be HDCP compliant...

John
post #355 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

Dave,

As for the audio issue: it's an HDMI/HDCP issue if you're using digital sources. You can't help that... Blame it on [MediaCo 1], [MediaCo2], etc... Your DVDO EDGE used a clever work around called, Plug-and-Play HDMI which may or may not be HDCP compliant...

John

I use coaxial S/PDIF's for all of my digital audio sources (2 cable Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR's, a Philips DVDR-3576 DVD Recorder, and 3 Sony DVP-CX777ES CD/DVD carousels switched through a Escient DVDM-100 controller). No HDMI audio or optical S/PDIF's in system yet. Didn't have this issue with any of these sources connected to my old NAD M15 which I used from March 2006 until 9 days ago. Occurs with all of these sources about 50% of the time when I power-up the M15HD. Once a week would be acceptible, once or twice a day is not.
post #356 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Fine View Post

I use coaxial S/PDIF's for all of my digital audio sources (2 cable Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR's, a Philips DVDR-3576 DVD Recorder, and 3 Sony DVP-CX777ES CD/DVD carousels switched through a Escient DVDM-100 controller). No HDMI audio or optical S/PDIF's in system yet. Didn't have this issue with any of these sources connected to my old NAD M15 which I used from March 2006 until 9 days ago. Occurs with all of these sources about 50% of the time when I power-up the M15HD. Once a week would be acceptible, once or twice a day is not.

If you leave your TV on 24/7, you will never have those issues again (or, very rarely). The DVDO Edge mimics that activity. The question is: is what the Edge does HDCP compliant? I say yes.
post #357 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Fine View Post

I use coaxial S/PDIF's for all of my digital audio sources (2 cable Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR's, a Philips DVDR-3576 DVD Recorder, and 3 Sony DVP-CX777ES CD/DVD carousels switched through a Escient DVDM-100 controller). No HDMI audio or optical S/PDIF's in system yet. Didn't have this issue with any of these sources connected to my old NAD M15 which I used from March 2006 until 9 days ago. Occurs with all of these sources about 50% of the time when I power-up the M15HD. Once a week would be acceptible, once or twice a day is not.

The M15 didn't have HDMI audio, so it's possible it could be a settings issue with the new one - maybe you have to disable HDMI audio per input and or the HDMI "control" function. (I don't recall what that's called.)
post #358 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

The M15 didn't have HDMI audio, so it's possible it could be a settings issue with the new one - maybe you have to disable HDMI audio per input and or the HDMI "control" function. (I don't recall what that's called.)

Nope: it's that you get no uncompressed audio (or any audio at all in poor implementations [read: 95%]) without an HDCP handshake between source and TV if they are in any way connected via HDMI. Simply put: if the M15HD had "Hot Swap" HDMI like the DVDO Edge (store the key from the handshake to mimic it to the source to coax playback) then you wouldn't have decreased functionality. That being said, I am not a lawyer and I don't know if "Hot Swap" HDMI is HDCP-compliant or DMCA-compliant...

It's the same reason why you see the green bar on the side of some HD channels: producers and true consumers of media don't want you to even have a chance at a perfect digital copy.
post #359 of 748
i replaiced my t163 with m15hd last saturday. used all the t163 cables. i was shock with stereo analog sound deterioration. i replaced ecosse "big red" power cable with 1st available cheap one (not even nad's stock) sending it directly to wall power socket by-passing power filters. huge improvement ! but not to the level of t163 which used to have power supply thought isotec filter and ecosse "big red".
post #360 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Yes, but apparently not from 5.1 DTS. Is there an error in NAD's information?

Roger,

Did you ever get confirmation on whether or not the M15HD can apply DPLIIx to DTS-HD 5.1 sources?

Does the same question apply to DTS-HDMA sources, or just to DTS-HD?

Thanks
Bruce
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