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"Fringe" on Fox HD - Page 171

post #5101 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djoel View Post

If that was the case Walternet would have cured his son by September not interrupt him, which wasn't avoided causing a long list of mishaps in both universe.

But that wasn't the result of human unpredictablity, that was due to an Observer breaking ranks. An event that does not involve one of the Observers messing up the order of things should be easy for them to forsee after the timeline is put in place using their temporal gadgets and physical abilities.

For example, they can't predict that Observer X interrupts timeline A to create timeline B, but they should be able to see what will then happen in timeline B until they break it again.

September was an anomaly in an otherwise predictable path that humans seem to fall into. In every other universe apart from the two/three we've seen Peter could have survived.
post #5102 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

This episode does create a writing problem the show has to get itself out of. The Observers can see all outcomes of all timelines and be everywhere and anywhere ...

so shouldn't they be able to predict exactly what the resistance is going to do and be there to stop them?

That would seem to have been the purpose of the Purge that Simon mentioned.

My current theory is that the 12-man Observer team we've been exposed to in the present timeline are just a small science team, which may or not be rogue, and not indicative of the species generally.

While they may be capable of exploring every timeline, it's not clear that they're all that methodical about it. They have essentially turned 2015 into their lifeboat because of issues in the future--for a species that can foresee all futures, allowing themselves to make Earth uninhabitable is an unusual and glaring mistake to make.

Here's a theory. DRJ's universe collapsing scheme succeeds, which collapses not just Red/Blue/Amber, but a host of universes--including all futures in which the Observers exist. As a result, there is now only one timeline through which they can move, and they have been hamstrung for some reason by DRJ's actions, such that they can only move between 2012 and 2609. This is why their future was destroyed. This is why they "turned" evil--self-preservation.
post #5103 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

But that wasn't the result of human unpredictablity, that was due to an Observer breaking ranks. An event that does not involve one of the Observers messing up the order of things should be easy for them to forsee after the timeline is put in place using their temporal gadgets and physical abilities.

For example, they can't predict that Observer X interrupts timeline A to create timeline B, but they should be able to see what will then happen in timeline B until they break it again.

September was an anomaly in an otherwise predictable path that humans seem to fall into. In every other universe apart from the two/three we've seen Peter could have survived.

I guess the human error runs deep no matter what, but I see what you're saying.

Like I initially said early on my post , I don't think the writers will dig deep into these story too much, thus leaving a few libraries loosely me thinks.

Djoel
post #5104 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post

"These are not the droids we are looking for."

"Move along."


Cool reference there, but I love they mention The Guns of Navarone as well.

DJoel
post #5105 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by URFloorMatt View Post

My current theory is that the 12-man Observer team we've been exposed to in the present timeline are just a small science team, which may or not be rogue, and not indicative of the species generally.

While they may be capable of exploring every timeline, it's not clear that they're all that methodical about it. They have essentially turned 2015 into their lifeboat because of issues in the future--for a species that can foresee all futures, allowing themselves to make Earth uninhabitable is an unusual and glaring mistake to make.

Here's a theory. DRJ's universe collapsing scheme succeeds, which collapses not just Red/Blue/Amber, but a host of universes--including all futures in which the Observers exist. As a result, there is now only one timeline through which they can move, and they have been hamstrung for some reason by DRJ's actions, such that they can only move between 2012 and 2609. This is why their future was destroyed. This is why they "turned" evil--self-preservation.

September did tell Peter that they were scientists I believe... so even if the Observers as a race go rogue, it still could be that even the people against September are not the ones who took over in the future.

I think sometimes we are seeing things out of order.

Remember how they all wondered why Massive Dynamic created that machine (from appearances that it looked like MD tech) and then why it was keyed to Peter's DNA? Now this season we see Walter trying to make the device work from Peter's DNA... which leads to the possible conclusion that the universe we see now sort-of precedes the season 1-3 timeline because that timeline happened after this timeline makes the machine respond to Peter!

Then we have the Observers... They *could* be trying to ensure they come to be to protect the future OR because they know the Fringe team at some point beats them down and they actually want to change the past to prevent that while not eradicating themselves in the process.

Clearly last season, the future we saw was beyond the point in this new future where Observers had taken over... so the season 3 timeline did not result in a future where Observers came back and took over!

The question then is... were the Observers trying to create this new future where they rule OR one in which they don't rule.

Also... I found myself thinking back to the original Bell + Walter cortexiphan trials... and that William Bell believed there was a war coming.

Now... Walter and most of us have been led to believe that "war" was the war between the red and blue universes over the damage done... BUT what if that wasn't the war Bell predicted?

What if the war Bell was preparing for was a war against the Observers... as noted in this future episode, Peter + Olivia's daughter could not be read by the Observers... implicating that perhaps the cortexiphan trials result in humans that are able to better fight against the Observers.
post #5106 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

Clearly last season, the future we saw was beyond the point in this new future where Observers had taken over... so the season 3 timeline did not result in a future where Observers came back and took over!

That future was 2026; when were the Observers supposed to come back in time to take over?
post #5107 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

That future was 2026; when were the Observers supposed to come back in time to take over?

Invasion began in 2015 and this episode was set in 2036.
post #5108 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

That future was 2026; when were the Observers supposed to come back in time to take over?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

Invasion began in 2015 and this episode was set in 2036.

Thanks... I was going to go back and check my season 3 Blu-ray to get the date... I just knew they were well beyond the 2015 date of the Observer invasion in this timeline.
post #5109 of 6444
Zachary Quinto as Bell
post #5110 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeewing View Post

Zachary Quinto as Bell

Ah! That's who I meant when I said "Jeremy Sisto" a few posts back! I'll fix it .
post #5111 of 6444
Lots of interesting homages this episode. Obviously, the opening was meant to recall Blade Runner, even down to copying some of that movie's distinctive Vangelis soundtrack. And other members have mentioned how the whole episode was similar in nature to 'Dollhouse's awesome "Epitaph One" episode (some think it was the series' best). Also interesting is the timing - 'Dollhouse' was also a Fox show, also ratings challenged with not knowing whether they'd come back, and "Epitaph One" was that show's game-changer. It set the tone for the remainder of the series.

Could be something similar going on here. What if, as others have speculated, the Observers we saw are indeed a "rogue" element of their future society? Their efforts all along were intended to assure this particular future - one where their kind comes back and destroys our universe - never happens. What if Jones was actually helping them, and so turns into a good guy (or, uh, good artificial life form) in the end? And somebody already mentioned the cortexiphan experiments may have been designed to create humans with the capacity to fight the coming Observer invasion.

By putting Walter's brain "back together", Olivia's daughter also brought back the "evil" Walternate. The side advantage is he's got the steely resolve and ruthless capacity to fight the Observers; "our" Walter wouldn't have what it takes. That antimatter bomb was likely furnished by the rogue Observers back before Walter ambered himself. Even Walter and Bell together couldn't have made something like that.

Speaking of Bell - "Desmond" pushed him out of the amber, thereby trapping himself. But all Walter(nate) had was Bell's hand. What happened to the rest of him?
post #5112 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

That's interesting (wasn't a Dollhouse fan--I think that I watched two episodes and the premise seemed profoundly goofy to me ); according to TV.com "Epitaph One", the first season finale, was never aired. It is available on Netflix in 1080p and as Amazon Prime Instant Video in 720p w/5.1 sound.

'Dollhouse' got good, I mean really good, as it went on and the focus shifted more and more to the overall story arc which became very complex and multi-layered. And yes - "Epitaph One" was released in between the first and second seasons and was never broadcast. It's essential to the series though, not to be missed. I assume it's on one of the two shiny disk sets.
post #5113 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

Also... I found myself thinking back to the original Bell + Walter cortexiphan trials... and that William Bell believed there was a war coming.

Now... Walter and most of us have been led to believe that "war" was the war between the red and blue universes over the damage done... BUT what if that wasn't the war Bell predicted?

What if the war Bell was preparing for was a war against the Observers... as noted in this future episode, Peter + Olivia's daughter could not be read by the Observers... implicating that perhaps the cortexiphan trials result in humans that are able to better fight against the Observers.

Excellent points. Walter's obsession with Peter and the Redverse may have distracted him from the true meaning of the ZFT manifesto. It can't be a coincidence that: (1) DRJ was closely connected with ZFT, (2) Bell was closely connected to ZFT, (3) Bell has mysteriously popped up even though we thought he was dead, and (4) ZFT is one of the few (perhaps only) plot threads from the beginning of the series that has not been revisited this season.

Of course, Walternate wrote the manifesto himself. But that would seem unlikely in this timeline; perhaps the author has changed, and it is more directly connected to the Observer phenomenon.

Could be in for one hell of a final three episodes (and then hopefully another 13 or so next fall.)
post #5114 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Speaking of Bell - "Desmond" pushed him out of the amber, thereby trapping himself. But all Walter(nate) had was Bell's hand. What happened to the rest of him?

"Desmond" pushed Peter out. Bell's hand was encased in amber--I'm assuming that Walter carved it out. (Astrid's standing in front of amberized Bell, staring at him, when Walter walks past her. He lifts a finger to his lips and blows, "Shhh". He then takes something out of his pocket, presumably a laser cutting tool like the one that Hume used to cut that test chunk of amber off of the mass that Walter was encased in. This scene makes his later conversation with Astrid on the train a little strange; I'd have expected her to stand and watch what he was doing, so why was she surprised that he had Bell's hand)?
post #5115 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeewing View Post

Zachary Quinto as Bell

That may be one of the more awesome things I've read in a while. Quinto would be good AND simultaneously a homage to Star Trek!

Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Speaking of Bell - "Desmond" pushed him out of the amber, thereby trapping himself. But all Walter(nate) had was Bell's hand. What happened to the rest of him?

You fell for the misdirect. They never showed us Peter in the Amber... so we were supposed to think Bell was coming back as a guest until Walter shows Astrid the hand and speaks of leaving Bell there in the Amber.

We don't see Peter until the very end in the train... and obviously he is the one "Desmond" sacrificed himself to save.
post #5116 of 6444
Quote:
I don't even know what to make of what happened tonight

Quote:
Yes, this episode was a real bombshell!

By far, this was the absolute worst POS they have ever cranked out.
They have completely lost their way, far worse than the rest of this year. They didn't just take "the road less traveled", it was the road to nowhere.
Quote:
But how does it fit in with the last three years of the show and the timeline they setup?

It doesn't.
AFAIC, the best thing they could do is ditch this disaster.
post #5117 of 6444
I think I'll go back to watching the X Files again. At least 'fighting the future' made more sense.
post #5118 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

That may be one of the more awesome things I've read in a while. Quinto would be good AND simultaneously a homage to Star Trek!

And all JJ has to do is pick up the phone. There's a direct connection there.

Despite the negative comments, I thought this was a good episode, an interesting perspective of what could be. I think it is leading up to some sort of time travel episode where Walter corrects a mistake in the past (our present?) to prevent this from happening in the future.

Time travel stuff is mind bending but can be fun.

And no matter what, this beats all the reality show crap that's out there.
post #5119 of 6444
+1
post #5120 of 6444
I found Walter's statement "I am not a number! I am a free man!" (reference to the avante garde 1968 series "The Prisoner") interesting and wonder if this has any special meaning in any upcoming episodes. Maybe to free the "Natives" from the Observers?
post #5121 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by gprace View Post

I found Walter's statement "I am not a number! I am a free man!" (reference to the avante garde 1968 series "The Prisoner") interesting and wonder if this has any special meaning in any upcoming episodes. Maybe to free the "Natives" from the Observers?

I think that's the scenario for finale, yes. If there is a 13 episode final season, it will all build up to that, a la 'Dollhouse'. That's why we're back in familiar territory this week. They have telegraphed/previewed the end-game for us with last week's episode.

From now on, however many episodes they have left, I believe that's where they're heading. I don't see how they can manage it with only 3 episodes left, however. That actually gives me some comfort; they'll need another season to wrap all this up. Hopefully, that decision is already made.

I humbly suggest to videobruce that he bail now, before disaster strikes!
post #5122 of 6444
My brain has hemorrhaged and information is leaking out of my ear.
WTF is going on?
post #5123 of 6444
Count me among those of you who thought the Dollhouse-like reboot was very effective. I had been thinking for the past couple of months that Fringe was suffering from Series Fatigue. The reboot, though, reenergized it and me along with it. I thought the beautiful young actress, Georgina Haig, who played Peter and Olivia's daughter, Etta, was terrific. As usual, John Noble was wonderful playing an evolving Walter. For the first time all season, I genuinely hope that Fringe gets renewed for another year.
post #5124 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

September did tell Peter that they were scientists I believe... so even if the Observers as a race go rogue, it still could be that even the people against September are not the ones who took over in the future.

I think sometimes we are seeing things out of order.
Remember how they all wondered why Massive Dynamic created that machine (from appearances that it looked like MD tech) and then why it was keyed to Peter's DNA? Now this season we see Walter trying to make the device work from Peter's DNA... which leads to the possible conclusion that the universe we see now sort-of precedes the season 1-3 timeline because that timeline happened after this timeline makes the machine respond to Peter!

Then we have the Observers... They *could* be trying to ensure they come to be to protect the future OR because they know the Fringe team at some point beats them down and they actually want to change the past to prevent that while not eradicating themselves in the process.

Clearly last season, the future we saw was beyond the point in this new future where Observers had taken over... so the season 3 timeline did not result in a future where Observers came back and took over!

The question then is... were the Observers trying to create this new future where they rule OR one in which they don't rule.

Also... I found myself thinking back to the original Bell + Walter cortexiphan trials... and that William Bell believed there was a war coming.

Now... Walter and most of us have been led to believe that "war" was the war between the red and blue universes over the damage done... BUT what if that wasn't the war Bell predicted?

What if the war Bell was preparing for was a war against the Observers... as noted in this future episode, Peter + Olivia's daughter could not be read by the Observers... implicating that perhaps the cortexiphan trials result in humans that are able to better fight against the Observers.

Wondering along these same lines as well. If memory serves, they were a bit vague about how the Machine was created and then sent back through time at the end of last season...I wonder if this is meant to tie in directly somehow?

I'm also unsure if this was a "reboot"...we've already had one glimpse of a dystopian future last season so I guess the real question is, is this an alternate future, or does it keep within the continuity of the current timeline?
post #5125 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

As a stand alone episode I really liked it. But how does it fit in with the last three years of the show and the timeline they setup? I really hope they don't pull a 'season 6' of Lost on us. Speaking of Lost, it was good to see Desmond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Thanks. I watched it this afternoon and I kept wondering the entire episode who that was. I knew him from something but couldn't place him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djoel View Post

LOL, I could not place him either without the thick Scottish ascent, and a single BROTHA! I first thought it was the rebel dude from V.

DJoel

In a show with so many references, I too was hoping for at least one BROTHA!
post #5126 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I don't see how they can manage it with only 3 episodes left, however. That actually gives me some comfort; they'll need another season to wrap all this up.

As I quoted in a post above, Joshua Jackson claims that, new season or no, this season's finale wraps up the story begun in season 1. They've filmed alternate endings for whether it's also the end of the series or not.
post #5127 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

As I quoted in a post above, Joshua Jackson claims that, new season or no, this season's finale wraps up the story begun in season 1. They've filmed alternate endings for whether it's also the end of the series or not.

If the current season is the last, things will sure look a bit rushed towards the end. I really hope there's a season 5 coming, as John Noble and Anna already said some time ago that they both imagined the series naturally ending after 5 seasons. Of course they don't write episodes and they're not Fox, but if there's a season 5, everybody will know from the beginning that it will be the last, which would give them (writers that is) plenty of time to come up with a great ending to the show and all its story arcs. Fingers still crossed!
post #5128 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

If the current season is the last, things will sure look a bit rushed towards the end. I really hope there's a season 5 coming, as John Noble and Anna already said some time ago that they both imagined the series naturally ending after 5 seasons.

Yeah, that's my point. I'm sure they could spin up some kind of finale over the next 3 hours but it would feel rushed and likely unsatisfying, especially considering this new plotline direction they just introduced. But even a limited season next year would give them enough time to do it right, one would presume. Of course, we said that about LOST too when they announced their finish date.

BTW, wonder what Anna Torv did on her week off? I knew I shouldn't have sat by the phone.
post #5129 of 6444
Well Joel Wyman has been all atwitter with positiveness about the chances of hearing good news about Fringe this week.
post #5130 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

If the current season is the last, things will sure look a bit rushed towards the end.

Jackson stated that they're wrapping "the story that was introduced in the first season" up at the end of this season, regardless of whether they're getting a new season or not. Where they go from here with a new season is unknown--maybe the "fight the future" idea in this past episode is a taste of that (which would seem to be without Torv, unless whatever Bell did to her was something from which she can be recovered).

Another quote from Jackson from a month back in this article:
Quote:


The actor also took the opportunity to comment on where a potential fifth season might lead the show, if "Fringe" is allowed another year to wrap up its storylines and go out with a bang. "It seems like they gave us a test run of what Season 5 would be if we did get a fifth season," he hinted. "We just finished an episode (19), which I think is what the template for the fifth season would be, what the story would be going forward. So I think they've figured out a way to extend the story, but I think the idea is to finish off this story this year, so that if it does have to be the end that it'll be a satisfactory ending. The thrust for everybody is to make it a satisfactory ending -- nobody wants to end the story with a cliffhanger and then shaft all the people who've given us four years of intense viewership right here at the end."

He thinks that Episode 19 that we just saw is probably where they'd be headed in a possible 5th season.

It's also interesting to note that the 2 part season-possibly-series-finale was being listed by TV.com as being entitled "End Game" parts 1 and 2 and are now listed as "Brave New World" parts 1 and 2.
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