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"Fringe" on Fox HD - Page 207

post #6181 of 6444
Loved the episode, but I do have one point to nitpick.

Maybe I just don't understand how the Observers operate, but when they showed Windmark the surveillance video of them getting in the car, he specifically mentioned it was only 14 minutes ago so they couldn't have gotten far.
Why couldn't the Observers just zip back 15 minutes to that point and capture them there?
post #6182 of 6444
To introduce something else to ponder.(like their wasn't enough already). When September brought up the white tulip, Walter said he had seen God, or words to that effect, September then explained he had planted the tulip across the timelines, to offer hope and inspire confidence in Walter that he could succeed...It seemed to me that the show was offerring its explaination for all the religious experiences throughout mankind's history. What if all the encounters with what seems to be a higher power or superior being were in fact a brief glimpse into another reality? An interaction between alternate timelines? For example, if Walter hadn't been the smartest man who ever lived and been more primitive, he could have seen the saving of him and Peter as divine intervention. There's also the way The Machine was portrayed in the ancient texts they found compared to the "real" explaination that it came from the future...
post #6183 of 6444
Didn't the white tulip have to do with that episode where Robocop was traveling back in time or something?
post #6184 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman2 View Post

Didn't the white tulip have to do with that episode where Robocop was traveling back in time or something?
Yep
post #6185 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

To introduce something else to ponder.(like their wasn't enough already). When September brought up the white tulip, Walter said he had seen God, or words to that effect, September then explained he had planted the tulip across the timelines, to offer hope and inspire confidence in Walter that he could succeed...It seemed to me that the show was offerring its explaination for all the religious experiences throughout mankind's history. What if all the encounters with what seems to be a higher power or superior being were in fact a brief glimpse into another reality? An interaction between alternate timelines? For example, if Walter hadn't been the smartest man who ever lived and been more primitive, he could have seen the saving of him and Peter as divine intervention. There's also the way The Machine was portrayed in the ancient texts they found compared to the "real" explaination that it came from the future...

I think they addressed that when Windmark asked and was denied permission by his boss to go back to an earlier time and eliminate the rebels. (At least that's how I interpreted that exchange between the two of them.) Windmark's boss said they weren't prepared to deal with a change. Obviously, they can change the past, but they want to make sure it doesn't affect their other plans. Windmark's "supervisor" seemed certain that the rebels were inconsequential - which will probably prove to be an arrogant, fatal mistake when the plan succeeds next week. biggrin.gif
post #6186 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman2 View Post

Didn't the white tulip have to do with that episode where Robocop was traveling back in time or something?

Yes, IIRC, it was the Peter Weller character who sent Walter the white tulip - an act of kindness to give Walter a measure of peace. Walter misinterpreted it as a sign from God, because he no longer had any memory of what had happened. I think it's altogether possible that the writers intended it as a swipe at religion in general - the idea that people attribute divine meaning to things which are anything but. No matter their real intentions, to me it's another example of Fringe's layers, ready for all of us to peel back if we want to. It's also a great tie-in to the idea of a time reset, which is what we're about to see next week.
Edited by Joseph Clark - 1/13/13 at 12:08pm
post #6187 of 6444
I watched next week's preview in slo-mo on my DVR, and I saw red Olivia, Lincoln and, I think, Broyles. Walter appears to inject Olivia with Cortexifan at one point, so maybe she bridges over to the other universe to enlist the aid of Faux-livia and Lincoln?
post #6188 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I think they addressed that when Windmark asked and was denied permission by his boss to go back to an earlier time and eliminate the rebels. (At least that's how I interpreted that exchange between the two of them.) Windmark's boss said they weren't prepared to deal with a change. Obviously, they can change the past, but they want to make sure it doesn't affect their other plans. Windmark's "supervisor" seemed certain that the rebels were inconsequential - which will probably prove to be an arrogant, fatal mistake when the plan succeeds next week. biggrin.gif

I agree with both posts, Walter said he belived it was a sign from God, not that he ssaw God ;-) I dont think this was a deeper comentary on religious beliefs. It was merely September saying that it wasnt God, but himself who gave Walter the sign (white tulip) to inspire hope....

You are also correct about eliminating characters and "just going back to do xyz) The commander was VERY clear on why Widmark could just go back and eliminate them. They had calculated thier chance for success and the only way to do it, was to keep the current path they were on. If they did kill them they would not be able to have the same chance at success. I think at this point regardless of what they do (kill them or let them live) the end would have similar results and the Observers plans would nnot succeed.


I did think that Walter would ahve to sacrifice himself over the past few episodes and it call came to "front" this episode. If they do a reset though both Peter and Walter would be "sacrificed" where Peter and Walter would die at the Lake....This is just m own humble opinoin though, but this show has bee all abut sacrifice for the main characters. In the end one or more of the main characters will be "sacrificed" so that everyone can live. Etta would not come back as that would not go bck far enough to effect the future IMO....
post #6189 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

If they do a reset though both Peter and Walter would be "sacrificed" where Peter and Walter would die at the Lake....This is just m own humble opinoin though, but this show has bee all abut sacrifice for the main characters. In the end one or more of the main characters will be "sacrificed" so that everyone can live. Etta would not come back as that would not go bck far enough to effect the future IMO....

If they reset by convincing researchers in the future not to develop the Observers then September will not exist to distract Walternate from discovering the cure for Peter's disease. Walter won't cross over to save him and Fringe Division might never be formed. Etta won't ever exist because red Peter and blue Olivia won't ever meet.
post #6190 of 6444
io9 has a somewhat humorous write-up of the many lapses of logic that are brought up by this episode:

http://io9.com/5975462/seriously-fringe-thats-what-youre-going-with
post #6191 of 6444
I'm going with the plan will in fact reset things, with the Observers taking a different path upon meeting Michael. As to how this relates to our heroes, I'm thinking that although Walter will likely die, Peter & Olivia will stay together - the whole "love conquers all" mixed w/ some Cortexiphan boosters for Olivia will allow her to make it happen, so to speak. Just my guess.....
post #6192 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

io9 has a somewhat humorous write-up of the many lapses of logic that are brought up by this episode:

http://io9.com/5975462/seriously-fringe-thats-what-youre-going-with

He makes some good points smile.gif. But then, I've always felt that you have to take Fringe with a couple of pounds of salt biggrin.gif.
post #6193 of 6444
Hahahaha.... "So which version of 2167 will you visit, if you build a time machine in 2036?"

I didn't even think of that; and when I read it, I thought of BTTF 2 smile.gif
post #6194 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

io9 has a somewhat humorous write-up of the many lapses of logic that are brought up by this episode:

http://io9.com/5975462/seriously-fringe-thats-what-youre-going-with

Except the author is wrong. The Observers (and the show) haven't reached the point in the present where they have definitively changed the future. That's why they are still building their machine.

Until the present time reaches a point which irrevocably changes the outcome of events, whenever anyone jumps forward it will still be the same future that sent The Observers back.

That also means the Fringe team has to die too. As long as they are alive they can can prevent the future from changing, especially Peter who is now an anomaly outside of the plan.
post #6195 of 6444
No matter how the writers resolve the story, we'll find a way to justify (or denounce) it. biggrin.gif One thing I think I'll always have a problem with is "The boy is important." I don't think I'll ever really buy that the original intention wasn't for that to mean Peter. It sounds like revisionist writing to me. It's possible, of course, that the opinion will change when I review the series.
post #6196 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

Except the author is wrong. The Observers (and the show) haven't reached the point in the present where they have definitively changed the future. That's why they are still building their machine.

They're building their machines to make the past more comfortable for them. There's no way to change the past without changing the future. The whole thing is BS physics nonsense. I've never read a science treatment of time travel that was more internally inconsistent. But I don't need for it to make sense to enjoy it.
post #6197 of 6444
Yeah, we may try to "justify" the writers' decisions in terms of science, but this is pure science fiction. In one of the Blu-ray extras, they had scientists discussing the "science" of Fringe with Fringe writers. You could see the scientists squirming at times, but in the end they're fans, too. From what I've read, many of NASA's scientists are huge Star Trek fans. As science uncovers "the secrets of the universe," we'll probably find that it's a weirder place than most science fiction has ever imagined. Even if Fringe science is nothing but a bag full of holes, some future Einstein may find something in it that jump starts his/her imagination. Irregardless, it's a blast to have had such a stimulating show on the air.
post #6198 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

No matter how the writers resolve the story, we'll find a way to justify (or denounce) it. biggrin.gif One thing I think I'll always have a problem with is "The boy is important." I don't think I'll ever really buy that the original intention wasn't for that to mean Peter. It sounds like revisionist writing to me. It's possible, of course, that the opinion will change when I review the series.

I think you are 100% correct. It really felt like they were grasping at straws to make this current storyline retroactively connect to the mythology of earlier seasons.

Next week is it I guess. Curtain call. When this show was firing on all cylinders, it was really something special to watch. I'm hoping they can find that magic one last time.
post #6199 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

They're building their machines to make the past more comfortable for them. There's no way to change the past without changing the future.

Except The Observers haven't changed their past yet. All they have done so far is start the first (easily reversible) step.

Anything they have accomplished so far is easily rectified, causing the same outcome for them as any other timeline did. Especially because they failed to account for the Fringe team and the child. Any of which can cause their plan to fail before it has any chance of succeeding in changing their outcome. Given their abilities they could still steer the course of events to create the same future outcome that sends them back and nullify any minor deviations, but if they want to create major changes to their future they have to create major and irreversible changes in the present.

If someone went back in time with a plan to kill Hitler, until they kill Hitler nothing changes. The time traveler could be blown up by an allied bomb the day before the assassination and the only thing they would change in history would be the amount of debris. The Observers saying "we'll invade 2036 with some evil A/C machines and take over the world!" means nothing to the future until they've actually done that. As the Fringers continuously messing up their plan demonstrates.
post #6200 of 6444

I could see Donald deciding it's his role to do the human thing and be the sacrifice for his son, and put things right.  If the observer (was it September?) had not disrupted altWalter at the crucial point of the experiment, there would have been no need for Walter to cross over and disturb the fabric of the universes.  Both Walters could have saved their sons and lived happily ever after, perhaps both Henry and Etta in their own respective worlds.

post #6201 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Both Walters could have saved their sons...

Not actually. By the time Walternate found (as was distracted from seeing that he'd found) the cure, blueverse Peter was dead and buried, though redverse Peter was still hanging on by a thread. See Season 2, Episode 16, entitled "Peter".
post #6202 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

I could see Donald deciding it's his role to do the human thing and be the sacrifice for his son, and put things right.  If the observer (was it September?) had not disrupted altWalter at the crucial point of the experiment, there would have been no need for Walter to cross over and disturb the fabric of the universes.  Both Walters could have saved their sons and lived happily ever after, perhaps both Henry and Etta in their own respective worlds.

It could be Michael who ends up making the ultimate sacrifice. I perceived a Messianic tone in this episode. The music box that Donald started for his son was playing Greensleeves, which is about the baby Jesus. As a being more advanced than normal man or genetically enhanced Observer, his sacrifice may be what saves both. He could bring about the happy ending, and a universal unification, that the death of any of our beloved Fringe team members might diminish.
post #6203 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post


Not actually. By the time Walternate found (as was distracted from seeing that he'd found) the cure, blueverse Peter was dead and buried, though redverse Peter was still hanging on by a thread. See Season 2, Episode 16, entitled "Peter".

 

Brain drain on my part, huh?   Thanks for the reference to the episode, I appreciate that.  I'll probably start over from the very beginning as a summer project. 

post #6204 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post


It could be Michael who ends up making the ultimate sacrifice. I perceived a Messianic tone in this episode. The music box that Donald started for his son was playing Greensleeves, which is about the baby Jesus. As a being more advanced than normal man or genetically enhanced Observer, his sacrifice may be what saves both. He could bring about the happy ending, and a universal unification, that the death of any of our beloved Fringe team members might diminish.

 

Greensleeves was an earthly song sung at court  or inns first.  The tune got borrowed for religion, as with many things.

 

"Alas, my love, you do me wrong to cast me off discourteously

When I have loved you oh so long, delighting in your company..."

 

All the verses  here:

 

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Greensleeves

 

But true, Michael seems to have left the monorail to make the sacrifice, I was only thinking if it's not his time yet, and they have to get him to the future as Donald said, then Donald would do what was needed to "save the boy, save the world"

post #6205 of 6444
I had recently watched the Road Warrior with my son and it has an identical music box though I believe that one played "Happy Birthday". Max gave it to the feral child to create a bond.
post #6206 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Imp View Post

Loved the episode, but I do have one point to nitpick.

Maybe I just don't understand how the Observers operate, but when they showed Windmark the surveillance video of them getting in the car, he specifically mentioned it was only 14 minutes ago so they couldn't have gotten far.
Why couldn't the Observers just zip back 15 minutes to that point and capture them there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

io9 has a somewhat humorous write-up of the many lapses of logic that are brought up by this episode:

http://io9.com/5975462/seriously-fringe-thats-what-youre-going-with


I was hoping my question would be covered in this article since no one else commented on it.

Am I the only one who noticed this or wondered about it, or am I just missing what the Observers can realistically do?
post #6207 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

They're building their machines to make the past more comfortable for them. There's no way to change the past without changing the future. The whole thing is BS physics nonsense. I've never read a science treatment of time travel that was more internally inconsistent. But I don't need for it to make sense to enjoy it.

Which machine are you referring to? The atmosphere degrading stuff the Observers are doing to 2015 Earth, or the machine Walter & Donald designed for the whole "time reset" business? I assume you mean the Observers - I think the poster you were replying to meant the Walter/Donald contraption.
Edited by jwebb1970 - 1/14/13 at 8:53am
post #6208 of 6444
One thing we did get - and did not receive on a blatant "this is why" plate - was the answer to there being no female Observers. Eliminate emotion along with traditional procreation methods.....you only need 1 gender.

Then again, I assume they could not dial out EVERYTHING......we recall Observers enjoying the company of females during Letters of Transit. Guess science will never fully eliminate the male horn dog gene or brain area.
post #6209 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwebb1970 View Post

One thing we did get - and did not receive on a blatant "this is why" plate - was the answer to there being no female Observers. Eliminate emotion along with traditional procreation methods.....you only need 1 gender.

Absent cloning, and there's no indication of that since The Observers look different from one another, you would still need both genders to fulfill the biological requirements of procreation, no matter how it's accomplished.
post #6210 of 6444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Imp View Post


I was hoping my question would be covered in this article since no one else commented on it.

Am I the only one who noticed this or wondered about it, or am I just missing what the Observers can realistically do?

If your question is "why don't the Observers just jump around in time and change whatever happens that they don't like?" the answer is "because they require authorization from above for any changes in the timeline, because the potential repercussions must be carefully predicted and analyzed."

My reading of this is that they are very carefully editing the past to produce what is (for them) the optimal present -- they one they're in. They know what has to happen in the past to make their present happen. Now normally, one might think that the past leads to the present inevitably, and one would be correct under normal circumstances. But if someone from your time travels to the past with the intention of changing it, that's different. And that's what's happening here; September has triggered a process that can destroy the Observers' reality, so they are working to force the timeline into a shape that will preserve it. No freelance editing by Windmark or anyone else is permitted.

Apparently in the Fringeverse there are not infinite simultaneous timelines, or at least not in an accessible way that matters. And I'm inferring that the theory here involves the "elastic timeline" principle where history wants to be what it's supposed to be, and things will return to their destined shape if possible. So there is more than one path to a given future, and those paths will converge if they're allowed to.

If this is the case, then he knows that "the plan" leads to an uncharted future, one whose outcome he cannot know. And what happens to any particular individual on the road to that future is still up for grabs. Whoever may feel his sacrifice is necessary to assure a shinier outcome, his destiny is still not inevitable.
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