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"Fringe" on Fox HD - Page 212

post #6331 of 6427
1/20/13 at 3:21pm
...The finale certainly had its share of emotional moments... And to me there's also this scene from season 3, episode 18 ("Bloodline"), when Lincoln confessed his feelings for Olivia. One of the most heartbreaking moments of the entire show! smile.gif ....I'm glad we got the see a bit of both Lee and Olivia from the alternate universe in the finale...
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post #6332 of 6427
1/20/13 at 3:23pm
so how did Peter get the tulip letter that Walter sent in the reset timeline if the timeline was erased?
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post #6333 of 6427
1/20/13 at 3:55pm
Walter was probably able to get one of his new friends to go back in time and drop it in the mail a couple of days earlier.
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post #6334 of 6427
1/20/13 at 4:01pm
Well he made the video right as they were about to do the plan, but then the Observers invaded. You could assume that he mailed the letter, and took the inoculation, then made the final tape.

I suppose he did that right before activating the machine, but due to the Observers invading, they postponed it, and scattered bits and pieces everywhere.
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post #6335 of 6427
1/20/13 at 4:12pm
I choose to believe that the timeline was reset to the 2015 moment of the Observer invasion which now does not occur. Given that, all other elements of the timeline up to that point did still happen which is why Peter is still with Olivia. I also believe that Walter would be there as well since that timeline is EXACTLY the same as before the invasion. He then is able to mail the picture of the tulip. Simple and plausible for sci fi....
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post #6336 of 6427
1/20/13 at 4:40pm
Tell you one thing. If the creators of Game of Thrones are not on the phone immediately with Noble or Torv they are really missing out. Both would be perfect for GOT.
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post #6337 of 6427
1/20/13 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post

Tell you one thing. If the creators of Game of Thrones are not on the phone immediately with Noble or Torv they are really missing out. Both would be perfect for GOT.

Noble, yes, Torv, no. She is way too wooden to play anything but an ice princess. It was funny to see Torv's wooden expression during the scene in which Walter took the boy's hand and walked him into the wormhole - while all the other characters had tears in their eyes, she couldn't summon a tear even though she was probably being kicked in the shin just out of camera range. wink.gif
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post #6338 of 6427
1/20/13 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post

I choose to believe that the timeline was reset to the 2015 moment of the Observer invasion which now does not occur. Given that, all other elements of the timeline up to that point did still happen which is why Peter is still with Olivia. I also believe that Walter would be there as well since that timeline is EXACTLY the same as before the invasion. He then is able to mail the picture of the tulip. Simple and plausible for sci fi....

Then why mail the tulip if he is here with them?
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post #6339 of 6427
1/20/13 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post

Noble, yes, Torv, no. She is way too wooden to play anything but an ice princess. It was funny to see Torv's wooden expression during the scene in which Walter took the boy's hand and walked him into the wormhole - while all the other characters had tears in their eyes, she couldn't summon a tear even though she was probably being kicked in the shin just out of camera range. wink.gif

Ummmmm she was "wooden" for this aprt becasue thats what the role called for, she was anything BUT wooden for her small role in "The Pacific".........Everyone thinks that this is just her, when in all respect its been explained over and over and over in the show that there is a REASOn she acts the way she does....
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post #6340 of 6427
1/20/13 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

so how did Peter get the tulip letter that Walter sent in the reset timeline if the timeline was erased?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post

I choose to believe that the timeline was reset to the 2015 moment of the Observer invasion which now does not occur. Given that, all other elements of the timeline up to that point did still happen which is why Peter is still with Olivia. I also believe that Walter would be there as well since that timeline is EXACTLY the same as before the invasion. He then is able to mail the picture of the tulip. Simple and plausible for sci fi....


Walter has been "erased" it was his sacrifice to ensure the Observers didnt invade.....

As far as gettign the Letter, there are a couple things that would be plausable.....

1)Walter has someone go back in time and send it to Peter
2) The letter was sent before the "erasing" of Walter and thus wouldnt be effected....


Walter was for sure erased and the look on Peters face would indicate that the Tulip "triggered" memories (as it was said eralier in the thread)......

Walter is for sure gone and not in this timeline he only exsits in the future.......
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post #6341 of 6427
1/20/13 at 7:24pm
I assumed Walter mailed the letter and made the video before he disappeared at the point of the paradox that would happen in 2015. Of course, Peter doesn't recall seeing the video from the future, but I have no reason to think he won't find it.

So Ph8te, by your word "erasing" you mean to imply that our reset characters have no memory of Walter existing ever? Even before the reset?
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post #6342 of 6427
1/20/13 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post

Noble, yes, Torv, no. She is way too wooden to play anything but an ice princess

As blueverse Olivia, she's a woman who was tortured as a child in Walter and Bell's cortexiphan trials and shoots her mother's abusive boyfriend. In the first few episodes she loses her lover/partner in bizarre circumstance which seem like he'd betrayed her and the country. She lost her daughter to the Observer invasion and then got her back to watch her be killed again. She's pretty emotionally scarred.

In contrast, think about her performance as the tough, gutsy, carefree Fauxlivia smile.gif. She's good--I'm sure that she played Olivia exactly as she was directed to.
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post #6343 of 6427
1/20/13 at 9:08pm
I just got around to watching the finale. Meh. It is what it is I suppose, but I hoped for more. We deserved better.

Still...I'm glad I got to watch 13 episodes this year, regardless of quality. I'll miss this show, and the characters.

Some thoughts:


>I don't know how anyone could dispute Windmark being dead, or the fact that it was Olivia who cortexiphan crushed him. Huge blood splatter on the window and you can see a trapped form between the vehicles. Observers are tough, but not superhuman tough.

>Regarding the tulip: I believe that in his final goodbye tape, Walter mentioned that Peter would be receiving a letter that he wouldn't understand (the tulip). Which means he must have dropped it off in the mail prior to the "original" departure moment. Who knows if Peter had seen the videotape by that point.

>I don't see any evidence that Walter was "erased" prior to 2015. My interpretation is that he closed that alternate timeline at the original departure point and vanished under mysterious circumstances. I guess the tulip was his way of saying everything would be alright.

>Paging William Bell.

>I thought it was hilarious that the loyalists maintained a camera network that could follow Broyles around God's Green Earth, and even through tunnels, but they could never detect high-level fugitives walking around NYC.

>I guess Michael could run futures, since he shushed Olivia right before key moments unfolded.
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post #6344 of 6427
1/20/13 at 9:25pm
I'm confused why people are confused about the White Tulip. smile.gif

Walter says that he (& the boy) will become a paradox in 2015... nature abhors a paradox... he and the boy will be deleted from 2015 as soon as they go forward. Not "completely deleted from all time," just deleted from 2015 until 2167 or whatever year it was they went forward to. That's why he said (in the video he made prior to being stuck in Amber) something like "You will get [the white tulip from me] and you'll call and wonder how I was here one moment and gone the next..."

So CLEARLY:

1) Walter is only gone from the moment the timeline is restored (the moment in the park when the Observers DON'T invade) and
2) He himself had already sent the tulip prior to the moment to Peter, knowing he'd vanish from the timeline if he was successful.

Right?
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post #6345 of 6427
1/20/13 at 10:51pm
Flambe nailed the tulip explanation.

Think back to when "Robocop" did the same trick.

He mails a letter to Walter with the tulip inside... then goes back in time to die. That paradox results in changes to the timeline (albeit minor ones) but Walter still gets the tulip he mailed before ceasing to exist in the present.

Some time-travel scenarios result in that not being possible... i.e., "Robocop" went back and died thus he wasn't there to send the letter.

Fringe, however, seems to be working the time-loop theory where paradoxes self-resolve instead of complete timeline rewrites per se... So Walter can mail a letter then change the future in a way that changes the past BUT the letter he mails still arrives. Just like "Robocop" did.

I think Peter's look at the end isn't about him getting new memories... I think it makes him think of the time Walter got a tulip in the mail... Remember, Walter never knew why he got that tulip since memory of "Robocop" was lost. But, Peter getting the same tulip immediately thinks of Walter (who of course mailed it)... and will put 2 and 2 together and realize something happened... and that it must be ok because why else would Walter send that same tulip to him.
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post #6346 of 6427
1/21/13 at 2:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpeacock22 View Post

So Ph8te, by your word "erasing" you mean to imply that our reset characters have no memory of Walter existing ever? Even before the reset?

that's another question I was wondering as well...if the timeline is reset to right before the Observer's invaded in 2015 and Walter only exists in the future then how does Peter's existence make any sense...did Walter just get deleted from memory?...Walter had to have existed because he is the one that kidnapped Peter from the alternate universe...so Peter no longer has memories of his father?...Walter had to have existed up until that point, so how does his existence get completely erased as a paradox without also deleting things he had a hand in creating such as Peter?

EDIT: just read Flambe's post and it seems to make the most sense regarding the tulip/paradox

EDIT #2: I think future-Walter will still try and find a way to get back to Peter's timeline...the guy has all this fancy new tech available to him so you know he will still be the same old Walter, experimenting and trying to find ways to get back 'home'
Edited by TitusTroy - 1/21/13 at 2:42am
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post #6347 of 6427
1/21/13 at 3:00am
But I thought the "plan" was hatched well after the invasion, so still a time travelling letter to get to Peter when he returns from the park on invasion day.

v/r,
C-F
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post #6348 of 6427
1/21/13 at 3:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNON-FODDER View Post

But I thought the "plan" was hatched well after the invasion, so still a time travelling letter to get to Peter when he returns from the park on invasion day

the plan was hatched before the invasion at the end of Season 4 when September visited Walter in the lab and announced, “We have to warn the others. They are coming.”
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post #6349 of 6427
1/21/13 at 3:48am
In order for things to work out as they do, the scenario has to be something like this:

  1. Walter and Michael jump to the future and by their presence influence the development of the Observers to be more emotive and understanding.
  2. Walter convinces an Observer 2.0 (doesn't have to be September) to jump back in time, distract Walternate, rescue Peter from the lake and show up at certain points to keep the future on course.
  3. Fringe stuff happens that brings everyone together.
  4. A child observer is sent back in time.
  5. After Olivia stops Bell's plan at the end of last season an Observer jumps back in time and tells Walter that he must go to the future and take Michael (or an equivalent Observer child) with him to ensure their evolution occurs in a positive manner. Based on Future Walter's instructions.
  6. Walter and the Observer undertake the plan in secret while Peter is off with Olivia. Mails Peter a tulip before he leaves.
  7. Back to the future! Back to 1!

Since the majority of the show (and both Peter and Olivia's lives) is influenced more by Walter's egomaniacal lust, David Robert Jones and Bell it only requires a few pertinent appearances by an Observer to nudge everything slightly so that Peter falls in love with Olivia and Etta is born. The scene in the park is just one moment in history. Things could have unfolded almost exactly as they did in seasons 1-4 before that point.
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post #6350 of 6427
1/21/13 at 4:12am
So, did time get reset to 2015 in the Red Universe?

You guys remember the machine that Walter made to move from one universe to the other? We presumed Walter made the machine in the future and some how got the parts deposited in different places in the past. So did Walter do this after he moved into the future? .....or is it simply an unanswered plot hole?
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post #6351 of 6427
1/21/13 at 4:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

In order for things to work out as they do, the scenario has to be something like this

I think your timeline is off...when Walter and Michael go into the future the timeline only resets from 2015...everything that happened prior to that still occured the way it happened on the show
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post #6352 of 6427
1/21/13 at 5:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

I think your timeline is off...when Walter and Michael go into the future the timeline only resets from 2015...everything that happened prior to that still occured the way it happened on the show

Which makes no fictional sense at all, because as we all discussed previously changing the future of The Observers to be more positive would not allow for any negative implications of their behavior in the same timeline. The only way it works is if a future Walter tells an Observer 2.0 to go back and make sure things stay on course in a new timeline for that closing scene in 2015 to happen. It wouldn't be the first time Walter made a time travel error.

Even Bill and Ted could work that out. If you change the future you have to make sure the past unfolds in a way to allow that to happen.
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post #6353 of 6427
1/21/13 at 5:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

Which makes no fictional sense at all, because as we all discussed previously changing the future of The Observers to be more positive would not allow for any negative implications of their behavior in the same timeline. The only way it works is if a future Walter tells an Observer 2.0 to go back and make sure things stay on course in a new timeline for that closing scene in 2015 to happen. It wouldn't be the first time Walter made a time travel error.

Even Bill and Ted could work that out. If you change the future you have to make sure the past unfolds in a way to allow that to happen.

changing the future of the Observer's to give them more emotion was really only meant so that they wouldn't decide to attack us...they still exist but they no longer become hostile towards the human race...but then again I thought the reason the Observer's attacked us was because the planet became uninhabitable...so I don't really understand how giving them more emotion would drastically alter things as even with the reboot the planet will still die off in the future
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post #6354 of 6427
1/21/13 at 6:12am
Well, all we *really* know is that Walter's plan succeeded in pushing off the invasion by at least one day. They still could invade tomorrow....
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post #6355 of 6427
1/21/13 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

Which makes no fictional sense at all, because as we all discussed previously changing the future of The Observers to be more positive would not allow for any negative implications of their behavior in the same timeline. The only way it works is if a future Walter tells an Observer 2.0 to go back and make sure things stay on course in a new timeline for that closing scene in 2015 to happen. It wouldn't be the first time Walter made a time travel error.

Even Bill and Ted could work that out. If you change the future you have to make sure the past unfolds in a way to allow that to happen.

Actually changing the future DOES change the past.......Once they make the discovery of Michael it puts them in a new path, thus no logner having the need for the exploritory team of 12 becasue the only reason they did go back was becasue they had destoryed thier current time and made it unihabitable (sp)......

All of the changes they had to make were a result of Septemebers "mistake". Otherwise things were goign as planned. Peter aka Red Peter was supposed to live and since Septemeber no longer interupted, he did....Remember there only need to be slight changes and many if not everything can happen the same (Peter coming over ect).....

There are a few possibilities with how things played out before the day we saw, I think this is one of the things that makes this show great, becasue with infinite possibilites no one is really wrong ;-)..........
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post #6356 of 6427
1/21/13 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post

Tell you one thing. If the creators of Game of Thrones are not on the phone immediately with Noble or Torv they are really missing out. Both would be perfect for GOT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post

Noble, yes, Torv, no. She is way too wooden to play anything but an ice princess. It was funny to see Torv's wooden expression during the scene in which Walter took the boy's hand and walked him into the wormhole - while all the other characters had tears in their eyes, she couldn't summon a tear even though she was probably being kicked in the shin just out of camera range. wink.gif

Wouldn't be any worse than Lena Headey who I have yet to see show any emotion, or even change in facial expression in anything she's done.
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post #6357 of 6427
1/21/13 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post

Noble, yes, Torv, no. She is way too wooden to play anything but an ice princess. It was funny to see Torv's wooden expression during the scene in which Walter took the boy's hand and walked him into the wormhole - while all the other characters had tears in their eyes, she couldn't summon a tear even though she was probably being kicked in the shin just out of camera range. wink.gif

Shhhh... You will provoke the Torvites...
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post #6358 of 6427
1/21/13 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Clark View Post

Shhhh... You will provoke the Torvites...

she has man hands....yuk.... eek.gif
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post #6359 of 6427
1/21/13 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Actually changing the future DOES change the past.......Once they make the discovery of Michael it puts them in a new path, thus no logner having the need for the exploritory team of 12 becasue the only reason they did go back was becasue they had destoryed thier current time and made it unihabitable (sp)......

All of the changes they had to make were a result of Septemebers "mistake". Otherwise things were goign as planned. Peter aka Red Peter was supposed to live and since Septemeber no longer interupted, he did....Remember there only need to be slight changes and many if not everything can happen the same (Peter coming over ect).....

There are a few possibilities with how things played out before the day we saw, I think this is one of the things that makes this show great, becasue with infinite possibilites no one is really wrong ;-)..........

I agree. As I see it, "infinite possibilities" are Fringe's greatest strength, but also its greatest weakness. The writers were so expansive in the sci fi subjects they chose to explore that the show constantly surprised and challenged. That was great fun! In terms of storytelling, though, it risked becoming confusing and unfocused. Multiply the infinite universes of the multiverse by the mind-boggling complexities of timeline resets. Virtually anything becomes possible, and justifiable. But in that sense it's also less satisfying, at least to me. Maybe some of you can find a perfect narrative and "scientific" consistency in Fringe, but I can't. I'm OK with that, because it's so much fun, but it's why for me that it falls short of the much more tightly woven narratives of Joss Whedon's Buffy, Angel and Firefly.

Now that I know the Observers are just a bunch of tech accelerated human-lizard hybrids, I feel the same way about them as I did Sam Weiss - disappointed that I thought they were so much more than they ended up being. And I feel similarly about Peter. I can accept the possibility that September was always talking about his own "son" and not Peter, but I don't have to like it, or believe that the creation of Michael wasn't revisionist deus ex machina by the writers.

Here's another possible scenario that came to mind as I watched the Fringe series finale. Observers from the Purpleverse cross over to reset time in both the red and blue universes. This has a "ripple" effect through adjoining pocket universes, of which the actual one in which I live is a part. Just as I'm about to have my evening pudding, I cease to
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post #6360 of 6427
1/21/13 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I agree. As I see it, "infinite possibilities" are Fringe's greatest strength, but also its greatest weakness. The writers were so expansive in the sci fi subjects they chose to explore that the show constantly surprised and challenged. That was great fun! In terms of storytelling, though, it risked becoming confusing and unfocused. Multiply the infinite universes of the multiverse by the mind-boggling complexities of timeline resets. Virtually anything becomes possible, and justifiable. But in that sense it's also less satisfying, at least to me. Maybe some of you can find a perfect narrative and "scientific" consistency in Fringe, but I can't. I'm OK with that, because it's so much fun, but it's why for me that it falls short of the much more tightly woven narratives of Joss Whedon's Buffy, Angel and Firefly.

Now that I know the Observers are just a bunch of tech accelerated human-lizard hybrids, I feel the same way about them as I did Sam Weiss - disappointed that I thought they were so much more than they ended up being. And I feel similarly about Peter. I can accept the possibility that September was always talking about his own "son" and not Peter, but I don't have to like it, or believe that the creation of Michael wasn't revisionist deus ex machina by the writers.

Here's another possible scenario that came to mind as I watched the Fringe series finale. Observers from the Purpleverse cross over to reset time in both the red and blue universes. This has a "ripple" effect through adjoining pocket universes, of which the actual one in which I live is a part. Just as I'm about to have my evening pudding, I cease to

What Sam Weiss and the Observers actually "were", or what they were originally intended to be, is probably different than what you actually got on screen. Their story lines were undoubtedly axed and/or accelerated once the threat of cancellation began to hover during season 3. And I think you were correct about your comments regarding Peter and Michael. Peter was the focal character on this show for four seasons, and then, viola, in this last batch of episodes you find out that it really wasn't about him, it was all about a random, Fringe-event kid who was only on screen for one episode. Nah, I don't buy it.
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