"Fringe" on Fox HD - Page 213

But again... "The boy is important" is Peter from Walter's angle, and Michael from September's. All this time Walter thought September referred to Peter, but in fact he was referring to the idea of a son. YOUR son, Walter, is important. Just as MY son, is important. This is very much in line with the values of the show so that's how I interpret it. Remember that September was willing, and about, to make the sacrifice himself. Had he not got shot, Walter would have stayed. Ultimately, Walter was prepared to make the sacrifice so HIS son could live. Michael is an observer so I don't consider he was making any sacrifice by leaving this time period. The sacrifice is from the parents so their children can carry their legacy. September made the ultimate sacrifice while he was saving his son, and Walter made it so that HIS OWN son could live a normal life with Olivia and raise his family. His Boy was still more important. And ultimately more important, of course, than himself.

Well said. And I think you nailed it.

Maybe they kept appreciation for beauty and art. I would like to think that with the super advanced brains, they would have learned to have technology as well as shrubbery, and maybe keep some girls around... But what sacrifice was September making by going to the future? That timeline was going to be dumped (BTW, what happens to folks in that timeline?). In the revised timeline, he would not exist, but he would be no more an anomaly than Michael. I think he was making more of a sacrifice by letting Walter go and losing his son.

v/r,
C-F

Im surprised no one mentioned anything about the Observers crossing over to the red universe ;-) I know this was discussed before this episode, but this was one of the 1st times we saww them cross to a universe without a "hole" being there. I guess there would be a trail\semi hole left by Olivia when she crosseed allowing the Observers to follow....I guess with all of the other stuff that happened it was kind of insignificant.....

I mentioned it earlier. Surprised me too. But shouldn't have. Didn't we see September in the red universe distracting Walternate from finding a cure for [his son] Peter? Or am I mixed up on that fundamental part of the mythology?

Thats why September would never make it, he was taking that sacrifice opportunity from Walter so that he (Walter) would no longer have to make one...Either way though September would not exsist as we know him, but may exsist as an "Observer 2.0"....

Besides that, he's a fish out of water in this time. Other than seeing the plan through, what purpose does he have living in a strange time where he doesn't belong and has to comb an unruly mop of hair? My guess is his death, knowing that he had a "back-up" in Walter, was not unwelcome.

Yes. Although he must enjoy dropping in on random scientist-types, since Peter was actually so insignificant in the grand scheme of things, right?

Yes we did .....Of course while Peter as significant was was not THE significant boy thatt was being mentioned....Peter was the significant piece to the puzzle for Walter, without him most things would not have happened, Michael however ws "the" significant boy that would be able to change everything......

Lets summariize...We have a mad scientist intent on seeking knowledge no matter what the human cost is, finding out what was really important is family. Filled with regret when he realizes the harm his quest for knowledge has done, he find redemption in sacrificing himself so his son could have a better life. He learns knowledge isn't an end in itself but merely a way to protect what really matters. The boy is important because it gives all he has learned a purpose.

Technically it wasnt his son :P

I had to laugh a little at the rundown of Fringe....

http://espn.go.com/espn/playbook/story/_/id/8865189/tmq-imagines-harbaugh-childhood-full-sibling-rivalry#lastresort

A lot of it is funny unfortunately some of it is spot on.

Some of it I guess, but most stuff can\is explained if you paid attention ;-) At leasst I didnt ahve as many issuees\open ends as he did..

I think this basically mirrors my thoughts. Courtesy of io9's Rob Bricken:

The Fringe finale was disappointing in that it didn't particularly wrap the entire series up with a bow; it was more a finale to the fifth season than the show. Also, I personally never really enjoyed the "Observers rule the future" setting of the fifth season; I prefer my Observers as observers, and the switch from observing to fascist ruling never really made sense to me (yes, I get that the original Observers we unknowingly doing recon for the invasion, but 1) if the Observers were bringing machines from the future anyways, why set up shop in 2036? Why not go back to 1750 and rule pretty much unopposed? Also, if this whole thing was for an invasion, why did the Observers bother to watch all those pre-2012 historical events? I know the show has answers, but I feel they're answers made up after the fact, and were never part of the plan until the showrunners realized they may actually have to make a fifth season).

On the other hand, I've never felt the Fringe season finales were all that strong anyways, but I didn't watch the show for those, I watched it for its wonderful stand-alone episodes of weirdness, mad science, and thoughtful examination of what truly makes us human. When I think about Fringe, I think about those episodes, and those entertained the hell out of me. So maybe I didn't think the finale was fittingly epic, it still doesn't affect the massive good will I have for the show.w.

The TMQ description of the impossibility of events given the time travel paradox is spot on, unless you accept the ridiculous notion that there are multiple timelines for a single universe (i.e., the original 'Universe A' they started out and ended up in).

I.e. this quote from the article nails it for me:

Evil people from the future invaded today's Earth in order to -- actually, viewers never found out. The future guys made cackling references to a plan to render today's humanity extinct, but if they did that, then how would they themselves later evolve? Coming from the future, they should have already known their sinister plan would fail in the series finale, since from their standpoint the events of the show happened in the past.

Time-travel plots are rife with paradoxes, but "Fringe" took them to another level. The future guys are constantly trying to figure out what's going on in the present. They should already know! What to us is the present would to them be the stuff in history books.

But as the previous poster quoted, the story was never about getting your head around the crazy sci-fi. It was an enjoyable ride with great character interaction and a recurring message of the bond between father and son (along with all of Walter's silliness). That's what made the show for me, not how you try to have it make sense.
Edited by slowbiscuit - 1/23/13 at 9:54am

Doesn't anyone who reviews the show actually watch it? The Observers clearly stated (at some point in the last 3 episodes, i can't remember exactly where) that they chose 2015 to invade because it had a 99.99999% chance of succeeding (leading Capt. Windmark to reply "And the anomaly had only a 0.0001% chance of surviving..."). So "clearly" there's an aspect of the Observer's plan that was up to chance. Just because "it happened in the past" doesn't mean it was set in stone. Over the course of all 5 seasons, the show went to great pains to show that Observers experience time much differently than humans do - so we human reviewers should stop expecting the Observers to have followed a plan that we humans would have put together. In this case, it really is appropriate that there's some suspension of disbelief. Or more importantly, you have to BELIEVE that the Observers had their way of doing things (however flawed you as a human think it might be) and it was the fact that fate is mutable that made the difference in the end.

That and the fact that they have streessed multiple times throughout the show there are multiple futures happening at anyone time...But we've been there and discussed that to death, if you could warap around that premise or jsut decied that it wasnt "real" enough then I guess I can see your point, for me I didnt have issues with what was shown or how the Observers hadneled things.....

Case in point as a retort to the "the Observers should know..." they do know, what they DONT know is which future is going to happen at the point they see it...This would bring back Season 4 where September told Olivia I ahve seen all the possible futures and in each one you must die.....There were a few other scenes as well where he was unsure of which future played out....

some may complain on how the writers wrapped up the series, but I think it was 1000x better than how X-files (probably previously my favorite sci-fi show before Fringe) was wrapped up. Wait, did they ever really wrap up X-files, between the movie and the last season ???

Sort of. I'll let Wikipedia summarize it for ya.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truth_(The_X-Files)

In the 2nd X Files movie, which was a MOTW-type story, they vaguely referenced that charges had long been dropped against Mulder (who was still living semi off the grid, but not in hiding anymore) & "all was forgiven" with the FBI when he's asked to consult on the movie's missing person's case involving a psychic priest. Scully had since left the FBI & had gone back to being a medical doctor.

Chris Carter had mentioned the wish for a 3rd movie that resolved the alien invasion business that the series finale did not close off (and was tied to the whole Mayan calendar silliness back in December 2012). I had read as well that supposedly an early draft had been put together. Both Duchovny & Anderson have publicly stated they are game for a 3rd go-round, should FOX ever greenlight it.
Edited by jwebb1970 - 1/23/13 at 12:03pm

Let's also not forget we have this coming for the hardcore fans in March...

http://www.amazon.com/Fringe-Septembers-Notebook-Tara-Bennett/dp/1608871304/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358975573&sr=1-1&keywords=fringe+september%27s+notebook

Book description: Delve into television’s most otherworldly phenomenon! Fringe: September’s Notebook is a uniquely in-world collection that explores the intricate destinies of Walter Bishop, Peter Bishop, and Olivia Dunham. Gathered by the Observer known only as “September,” these pages reveal new truths about the Fringe Division and Massive Dynamic. The book also closely examines the Amber timeline and the alternate universe “Over There.”

Packed with concept art, exclusive photos, and intriguing ephemera, September’s Notebook will satisfy every serious fan’s hunger for details about the Observers, quirks and little-known facts about each character, insight into Fringe Science, and much more. “Easter eggs” throughout build on the many symbols and codes woven into the show’s fabric, uncovering truths never before revealed.

With its layered storytelling, well-rendered characters, and complex overarching narrative, Fringe is the ideal show around which to publish, and Fringe: September’s Notebook provides a totally immersive reading experience.

This has been alluded to already, but the time they chose to come back to was done precisely because it gave them the greatest chance for success. Think about it this way, if they went back to 1750 or 1200 or whenever they have to ensure that their appearing in the timeline can still allow them to exist. At a certain point backwards in time from the genesis of their advanced intellect it becomes more likely that their presence in the timeline could inadvertently alter it and preclude their own existence. The way I saw it is that they went as far back in time as possible to maximize their chances of survival.

The reviewer acknowledged that fact, but also stated that most of the answers given in season 5 seemed like they were made up "after the fact". I happen to feel the same way. YMMV.

Yeah, I said at the beginning of the season that it didn't make a lot of sense for the Observers to morph from being somewhat benign protectors of the future timeline to fascist totalitarian invaders. It never felt right to me. Especially since they were so lousy at it.

And why would anyone want to be a loyalist? Your evil overlords are making the air you need to live unbreathable! It would lead to your ultimate extermination. Even the Nazis in occupied France - the model for evil invaders everywhere - weren't that bad (at least in France).

But then, I recognize the need for a "Big Bad" villain for the last season after Walternate and ZFT and all the other threats had been resolved. They needed to raise the stakes, as it were. But... it never felt organic to the show that had come before (shades of LOST's final season). It always felt retconned.

Agree 100%.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I had an additional 13 episodes of Fringe. But quite a bit of season 5 just didn't work for me when you try to incorporate it into the series as a whole. Maybe they could have done a slightly better job if they had a full season to work with, but it is what it is.

Exactly. Again, the whole premise of changing the future that you're living in right now is a farce anyway. The events before already happened and that's why you're here. This diverging the timeline stuff just doesn't make any sense to me, because if it diverged how were you able to go back in time and make it so? You didn't exist to go back and do it, at least with the drastic way that Fringe presented it in S5.

It was much more plausible when the Observers were just that, and that they adhered to what everyone accepts as the truth for time travel sci-fi - you can't change the future that you came from in any meaningful way.

Well, *cough*, Looper?...



...and what are we gonna do on friday nights now anyway huh? talk about diverging the timeline!

From the look of it, we'll be talking about Fringe for a long time. How many other shows have a bazillion posts here on AVS after they're canceled?

Yeah, this one, Lost, and BSG all had threads running long after the show ended. Sopranos too, I presume.

LOST did for quite a while & occasionally gets resurrected.

And much like LOST, where I felt a bit of an apologist eventually (I understood many of the frustrations but was ultimately satisfied with its ending), I foresee the same for me & FRINGE. I was fine with both S5 & the finale. Time travel business aside, the only "tacked on" or similar complaints I have are more to do with the obvious budgetary decisions made & their effect on the writing/production:

-Main cast cut down to 4 (Torv, Jackson, Noble & Nicole) and both Lance Reddick & Blair Brown reduced to "Special Appearance By" status (and a remaining cast that either worked for scale or were done with before or popped up towards the end).
-Just me, or outside of the obviously still standing Harvard lab set, some generic Observer locales, and some bluescreen shots, did they only use 3-4 redressed locations in Vancouver, with CG elements added to vary the landscape?
-Of course, the order of just 13 installments.
-What was at least a few years btwn the end of S4 & the invasion that we did not get to see.

OTOH - S5 had some of the more sophisticated CG FX going on - but perhaps some tech advances have helped to make such things a tad cheaper.

As to the tacked on Observer invasion plot - I was fine with this being the ultimate answer to who/what they really were. And that September & his 11 comrades (of which we saw half of @ best) were simply a recon team unaware of their leaders' plan, and who via exposure to us lesser evolved humans, developed long eliminated emotions. And that could, with some suspension of disbelief coupled with a strong dose of sentimentality, make much of the whole S5 plot line work for you. As to the time travel & changing destiny stuff - that debate will likely go on for a long time. Until someone actually - if ever - develops the ability to traverse time, then maybe we'll have an answer to all our FRINGE complaints. For me, the actors & the writing for their characters overall trumped any scientific/logical aspects. Maybe it's best to view S5 under the influence of some of Walter's "Brown Betty"

The inclusion of Michael being the anomaly - or The One, if you will - was also fine with me. The 5th season was cool, IMO & a gift to the fans that stuck around. Was it ideal? No!

Would have loved to see S5 have gotten a full order - and either immediately or gradually move forward thru time to witness the invasion & perhaps have the season finale involve the ambering of the Fringe team. Then have a 13-ep S6 to essentially play out the plan to reset time. A nerd can dream, yes?

But as far as serialized dramas over the last decade+ that I have gotten into, I have some very strong positive feelings for FRINGE. I have been angered by shows that never got to properly wrap up due to their various network's choices. And even the ones who ended "on their own terms" (X FILES, LOST, SOPRANOS, BSG), while fine by me, did not give me the initial feeling of "you pretty much nailed it" that FRINGE did.
Edited by jwebb1970 - 1/24/13 at 1:50pm