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Arcsoft TMT scaling artifacts and overscan

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I've been setting up a new build using Arcsoft TMT for blu-ray playback, and I noticed something odd.

The video card is GeForce 8600GT-based, using DVI->HDMI to a Sony KDS-60A2000 SXRD rear-projection (1080p).

In BeyondTV, I was in the habit of setting my resolution to native monitor resolution (1920x1080 in this case), and using the overscan compensation in BeyondTV to fit to the screen. This gave me 1:1 pixel mapping in the past. OTA ATSC video looked great, with no softness or visible scaling artifacts. This still seems to work fine for BeyondTV in this new build.

However, when I set the res to 1920x1080, Arcsoft TMT shows some artifacts of upscaling, using really bad sampling (nearest neighbour). For example, I can see this clearly on the opening titles of the Departed BluRay, which has high-contrast white-on-black letters in the titles. The diagonal lines in the letters have all kinds of nasty jaggies. This seems to happen regardless of whether "hardware acceleration" is turned on in TMT or not.

If I use a reduced res (eg, 1840x1035), the nasty artifacts go away. Since Arcsoft TMT doesn't have any overscan compensation (someone correct me if I'm wrong), I have to do this anyway, otherwise the UI doesn't all fit on the screen. So although I'm forced to use this solution for now, I'm concerned that BeyondTV may now do some unwanted downscaling.

The question is, why is TMT doing any scaling at all? This seems backwards to me. Shouldn't 1920x1080 show no scaling artifacts, since it's displaying 1:1, and the reduced res force downscaling to occur? Or is the actual pixel rectangle of blu-ray video smaller than 1920x1080?

And (this question only for the graphics ubernerds in the crowd), even if it does have to use scaling, why is it doing nearest neighbour? Shouldn't it be doing bilinear filtering at a minimum, or hopefully bicubic?
post #2 of 24
Your not alone...



To tell you the truth I don't even bother with third party players I just use their codec's and MPC.
post #3 of 24
I see the same thing with my 7900GS with my 1920x1080p LCD with Arcsoft TMT. PowerDVD 8 does not do it. With my 8600GT + 1080i RP-CRT (which has overscan correction active in the drivers) the two look the same (I don't see artifacts). I just got the LCD, so I haven't swapped the PCs yet to see if that changes anything.
post #4 of 24
There has to be some settings wrong on your system since I also have the 8600GT and I don't see anything like that. As a matter of fact, other than the nasty virus protection hassles TMT has incredible PQ/AQ compared to PowerDVD 7 or 8.
post #5 of 24
funny things happen when the aspect ratio is wrong for 16:9.
maybe the arcsoft sees the 1920 as a different aspect ratio than 16:9
that's why the picture is wonky
post #6 of 24
I'm resurrecting this thread because I have the same issue and don't understand how it can be happening. TMT should not be doing any scaling, yet, it clearly is doing something as the artifacts are readily noticable. I've been pretty happy with my TMT experience, except for this. Here is an example from The Dark Knight (look at the building roofline):

Opening scene via PS3:



Same scene via TMT:



I have the ATI 4670 and I don't see how/why this is happening. Do others not see this? Is it something I can fix?
post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr View Post

I'm resurrecting this thread because I have the same issue and don't understand how it can be happening. TMT should not be doing any scaling, yet, it clearly is doing something as the artifacts are readily noticable. I've been pretty happy with my TMT experience, except for this. Here is an example from The Dark Knight (look at the building roofline):



I have the ATI 4670 and I don't see how/why this is happening. Do others not see this? Is it something I can fix?


What OS/Video Card/Drivers? The only thing I can think of is that TMT uses your desktop resolution/settings and not your Vista MCE ones. Looks like you are doing some overscanning in your desktop?
post #8 of 24
Assuming the video is 1920x1080 and the display is 1920x1080 why are you using over scan correction when displaying full screen video? I'll just point out that over scan correction is introducing a layer of scaling which you do not want/need. I would think that having 1:1 pixel mapping and 1-3% over scan would be preferred when displaying 1080p full screen video on a 1080p display. I use over scan correction when displaying the desktop but when my media player starts and is full screen the resolution is automatically switched to 1920x1080p for 1:1 pixel mapping with a slight unavoidable over scan due to my display.

Try switching to a full 1920x1080 resolution with no over scan correction. The PQ on my nV and ATI cards was always notiably better with 1:1 pixel mapping compared to trying to display video on a custom resolution or the over scan corrected resolution (virtual resolution within a resolution) which requires re-scaling the video. Once you convince yourself invest into a media player that support switching the resolution on fullscreen or find another external method to switch the resolution before starting playback of your video.
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by genro View Post

What OS/Video Card/Drivers? The only thing I can think of is that TMT uses your desktop resolution/settings and not your Vista MCE ones. Looks like you are doing some overscanning in your desktop?

I'm on XP and not using MCE. Card specifically is the VisionTek Radion HD 4670 (1GB) with 8.9 Catalyst. The only option on the Catalyst drivers is for underscan and I have it set to 0% but moving it around has no effect on this issue.
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr View Post

I'm on XP and not using MCE. Card specifically is the VisionTek Radion HD 4670 (1GB) with 8.9 Catalyst. The only option on the Catalyst drivers is for underscan and I have it set to 0% but moving it around has no effect on this issue.

I would try updating your drivers. I noticed Catalyst 8.11 fixed some (non-related) issues I had with TMT.
post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by lstepnio View Post

Assuming the video is 1920x1080 and the display is 1920x1080 why are you using over scan correction when displaying full screen video? I'll just point out that over scan correction is introducing a layer of scaling which you do not want/need. I would think that having 1:1 pixel mapping and 1-3% over scan would be preferred when displaying 1080p full screen video on a 1080p display. I use over scan correction when displaying the desktop but when my media player starts and is full screen the resolution is automatically switched to 1920x1080p for 1:1 pixel mapping with a slight unavoidable over scan due to my display.

Try switching to a full 1920x1080 resolution with no over scan correction. The PQ on my nV and ATI cards was always notiably better with 1:1 pixel mapping compared to trying to display video on a custom resolution or the over scan corrected resolution (virtual resolution within a resolution) which requires re-scaling the video. Once you convince yourself invest into a media player that support switching the resolution on fullscreen or find another external method to switch the resolution before starting playback of your video.

So how are you controlling the switching of resolutions with full screen video? Reclock?
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by EskimoPie View Post

So how are you controlling the switching of resolutions with full screen video? Reclock?

To my knowledge, I'm not switching resolutions. My desktop is sized to 1920 x 1080.
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by genro View Post

I would try updating your drivers. I noticed Catalyst 8.11 fixed some (non-related) issues I had with TMT.

Maybe I'll try that again but the last time I tried updating Catalyst TMT wouldn't play video (got just a black screen) so I rolled back to the drivers included with my card.

Also, where are you guys getting these version numbers? My disc says Catalyst 8.9 and you guys keep referring to 8.11 and 8.12...
post #14 of 24
It happens with 8.12 as well. When Nimo first brought this to my attention, I didn't notice it but I was running an Nvidia 9600GT then. Now I'm running an ATI 3200 IGP and I do see it. Haven't had time to mess around with it though.
post #15 of 24
I turned off Hardware acceleration in TMT and the jaggies went away. However, the picture stutters. I guess the difference in driver versions has to do with the fact that I'm on XP while most of you appear to be on Vista (with your own set of problems).

Does the fact that turning off HA fixes this issue mean that the problem lies with ATI...?
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr View Post

I turned off Hardware acceleration in TMT and the jaggies went away. However, the picture stutters. I guess the difference in driver versions has to do with the fact that I'm on XP while most of you appear to be on Vista (with your own set of problems).

Does the fact that turning off HA fixes this issue mean that the problem lies with ATI...?

You should be able to download 8.12 (2008/12) from the amd website:

http://game.amd.com/us-en/drivers_catalyst.aspx
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharangad View Post

You should be able to download 8.12 (2008/12) from the amd website:

http://game.amd.com/us-en/drivers_catalyst.aspx

I did. Installed it and now I get no video from TMT - sound, but no video.

The drivers that came with my card are 8.9, yet these drivers - released just yesterday - are version 8.12??? WTF?

Anyway, I'm rolling back to the drivers that at least give me a picture - even if it is a sub-par one.

Anyone successfully using 8.12 on a 4670 on XP with TMT?
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr View Post

The drivers that came with my card are 8.9, yet these drivers - released just yesterday - are version 8.12??? WTF?

I don't understand your confusion... 12 > 9... newer drivers are available online than what came with your graphics card on a CD. That surprises you?
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr View Post

The drivers that came with my card are 8.9, yet these drivers - released just yesterday - are version 8.12??? WTF?

ATI is on a monthly release cycle for their drivers. They number them by year.month. So 8.9 was released Sept, 08 and 8.12 is the Dec 08 release.

Don
post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by EskimoPie View Post

I don't understand your confusion... 12 > 9... newer drivers are available online than what came with your graphics card on a CD. That surprises you?

.12 is not greater than .9 - I remember enough math to know that.

However, dfordham's answer explains it (the driver version should actually be 8.09). Thanks.

But they still don't work with my hardware/software.
post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr View Post

.12 is not greater than .9 - I remember enough math to know that.

However, dfordham's answer explains it (the driver version should actually be 8.09). Thanks.

But they still don't work with my hardware/software.

Software version numbers have nothing to do with math. The period is a separator and not a decimal point, so it should be viewed as Major version 8, Minor version 12 which is newer than Major version 8, Minor version 9.

Some software can have multiple periods and letters in version numbers which doesn't exist in the math world (there is no number class that contains multiple decimals):
Win95: 4.00.950
Win95 SP1: 4.00.950A

Don't worry, this is a point of confusion for a lot of people.
post #22 of 24
Its been 15 years since I wrote software, but we always would use proper math in the versions - no matter how many minor releases we had. Note those Win95 versions are 4.00, not 4.0 and if they had another rev in the minor version I'll bet you it wouldbe 4.01 not 4.1. But, anyway, I now understand their block numbering scheme so no biggie.
post #23 of 24
I just want to report that I am seeing the same issues as the OP. TMT 3.0.1.120, Windows 7 RC (build 7100). NVIDIA 8800GT card, version 186.18 drivers.

Core 2 Duo E6400 CPU, 2GB RAM.

I've also tried TMT 2 last year, same result in Windows XP, on same hardware.

PowerDVD 7.3, 8, and 9 do not exhibit this problem. Media Player Classic and MPC Home Cinema do not have the same problem. Zoomplayer does not have the same problem.

Displays used: Benq W5000 projector, Benq 8700 projector, NEC 20WMGX2 LCD display.

Conclusion: Arcsoft TMT still sucks.
post #24 of 24
Update: After applying the TMT 3.0.1.133 beta patch:

http://www.arcsoft.com/forum/forum_p...?TID=2752&PN=1

The PQ issue disappears!
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