Dish Network DTVPal Plus - Page 5

I have a Zinwell, think it's great. I had borrowed a Tivax, also great, but needed a second box with timers since I have two VCRs. Zinwells all react to any Zinwell remote, and location within a room doesn't seem to matter so I decided to get a TR-40CRA. Low and behold, everyone was out of them but I found (online) that Sears had DTVPals. When I got there, all that they had were DTVPal Plus, so I bought one. For the record, some states have stores that sell the TR-40 at about the same $40 as the coupon (or less) if you can pick them up at their stores. Sears charged me $60 plus tax. Anyway, I had limited options, so I bought and hooked up the DTVPal Plus. Issues -

1. The EPG, despite its wide coverage, isn't a helpful as the Zinwell's one channel now and next indicator that comes on when you first go to a channel.
2. The sounds levels are quite different. When I switch from listening to the DTVPal Plus to the Zinwell (through an A-B switch), the volume blares until I can get to the remote and cut it way back.
3. The green "on" light on the DTVPal Plus is huge and bright green, very annoying, so I've had to turn the box away from where I sit.
4. For some reason, whereas I could change the aspect ratio on each channel on the Zinwell, I can only do so on some channels with the DTVPal Plus. It shows you Full, Zoom, but when you press the button to change it, some stations stay at Full, even if only displaying part of the screen.
5. Picture quality was lousy when I first set it up, but I played with cables and suddenly it improved. It is now almost the same as the PQ is on the Zinwell and was on the Tivax. (For the record, unlike the published reviews, I prefer the Zinwell to the Tivax.)

Of course, I now have to remember to program 4 boxes to record 2 shows at the same time, and always keep forgetting that the VCRs need to be programmed for channel 4 (or 3), regardless of the actual station. Although the DTVPal DVR (if anyone ever has any for sale again) might be easier, I think it's going to be either sticking with what I'm doing or moving on to a TIVO.

I see that the Channel Master EPG, while listing 7+ hours (or is it 12 hours) of programming titles, also displays a description of the program being viewed, similar to the Insignia/Zenith. (the Zinwell does not do this)

Does the Pal Plus just display program names, or does it, too, describe in more detail the program being viewed, like the Channel Master and Insignia?
I have not seen any posts displaying something like this.

I was already to decide on the Pal Plus, now I read some posts on the box (is that green light really THAT distracting?) that cause me to pause and reconsider the Channel Master, and to forget about getting a more extended EPG and settle for half a day's worth of tv programming display.

There may have been a post saying that the remote for the Pal Plus doesn't have a "recall" button. (I thought all CECB had to include such a feature on the remote.) I wonder why anyone would choose an Apex or Digital Stream over a Pal Plus or Channel Master, if a choice was available. The EPG on the Digital Stream is supposed to be good, and the APEX also has an extended EPG.

That 7 day EPG on the Pal Plus, though, is very enticing. My local newspaper's tv guide listing has gotten very limited as well as being very unreliable. Zap2it.com, while very complete, is very awkward to navigate through. I'd find a 7 day EPG on my tv screen much easier to use for viewing a listing of upcoming programs.

Does the "history" function or "search" function allow the viewer to "hunt" for a desired program in the future and to identify the station it is scheduled to be on? This seems like more of a TIVO feature.

Echostar claiming a "7-day EPG" on the Pal should be taken with a grain of salt. Oftentimes, my CM will have info further into the future for some channels.

Also, though you may not notice depending on the size of your display, the difference in the picture quality between the Pal and the CM (over s-video) can be quite noticable.

Having had my Plus for a day now, here's some more info:

1. Yes, the green light is that distracting.
2. The red light stopped lighting. (Or am I wrong and there is no red light?)
3. Amazingly, over time, the thing has gotten better. Picture quality improved though slightly less sharp than my Zinwell and my former Tivax. I've discovered other features just by playing with the remote.
4. When I turned on the power this morning, it started by saying that it was going to download the latest program info. Took only 15 seconds, but for two main stations that I know have had scheduled programs for days, it just shows No Information Available. (Is there any way to force it to do that again?)
5. Yes, it does show all stations, many days. But few display at once, and to move around is slow. No way to ask it to give you tomorrow, or 8 pm tonight, so you have to scroll and scroll and scroll.
6. Yes, it will give more detail about programs, one of its better points versus the Zinwell. But you have to select the right button to press, since there are many different ways to see information like that.
7. I went to the Search function, put in House (it gives you an on-screen keyboard and you move the cursor to select each letter). It came back with 4 shows and the station and time that had the word House in them. Desperate Housewives, some other household info, but not the one I was seeking, House. Probably none schedule for the next week. And you can select one of these, and it will set a timer for you. I did and it actually turned on and switched to it. Not like TIVO since no season pass. If I were to click on on of them and it will ask me (same as Zinwell) once, weekly, etc., it will not find that each time by the name of the program, but simply record at that channel and time. TIVO will give you House each time, even if it moves around.
8. Unlike Zinwell, it gives you a little early warning if a programmed time is getting close. You can click on it and go to that station right away, tell it to not go to that station after all, or just to do as programmed.
9. So the main issue I currently have is whether to exchange this for another to get one where the red light (standby) works, although I'm not sure why that matters or even if there is one.
10. One thing Zinwell does better is to let me define Favorite stations as a group. Then I can choose that group and when I go around channels, it will only show me those in the group. On the Plus, I have to lock one of the stations I don't want to see with a password, and ask that it be hidden, or as I did, delete those that I don't want to normally see, which is truly deleting them.

One other thing. This gizmo is really sensitive as regards cables, even the power cord. When I first set it up, the picture was lousy, and it took moving power cords, other cables, etc. jiggling them occasionally, and eventually it got happy. But it also seemed to just need time and it constantly improved, although I don't know why that was.

EPG information is dependent upon how much information the station is sending out. My tests have shown that most stations don't supply more than 12 hours.

The APEX DT502 has a reminder feature that will change channels when the program starts, has S-Video, better PQ than the Pal's, 7-day+ EPG capable, and supplies a large amount of program information. The unit is also encased in a metal case and possibly can be modified to have channel UP/DOWN buttons installed. It is also better at receiving stations at my location than the Insignia -APT.

EPG information is dependent upon how much information the station is sending out. My tests have shown that most stations don't supply more than 12 hours.

The APEX DT502 has a reminder feature that will change channels when the program starts, has S-Video, better PQ than the Pal's, 7-day+ EPG capable, and supplies a large amount of program information. The unit is also encased in metal and possibly can be modified to have channel UP/DOWN buttons installed. It is also better at receiving stations at my location than the Insignia -APT.

Sears B&M had 30+ boxes of DTVPAL+ (F106 firmware) @$59. In order from best to worst overall that I have used: Pal+, Digital Stream, Insignia, Magnavox. Reception follows the same order which surprised me given the negative reviews. I was going to order the Channelmaster for s-video but realized that I wanted a better guide and no real point to svideo with the down sampling. PQ looks the same as every other box and why you would even judge a $20 box so harsh is beyond me. Go buy a $100-200 unit. Aspect ratios are changeable and all programs look fine.

Bottom line: DTVPal+ EPG makes every CECB look inferior.

It describes in detail. Now/next or full guide listings.

The green light? Put electrical tape over it. Not any brighter than every other electronic device.

There is a recall button on the Pal+ remote.

Yes you can search for programs.

Use the closed-captioning buttons/page buttons in the top right corner. You go by page which is quicker.

By default, the internal volume on the DTVPal is set to 50 percent. Make sure you turn the volume up.
The volume through the composite out is louder than the RF out.


On the DTVPal, the picture format setting can't be changed on channels broadcasting SD 480i. They default to full screen, but may be letterboxed by the broadcaster.


There isn't a red light. It's either green or off. No yellow light either.


If you have a lot of channels, sometimes you will temporarily see "no information" for random channels. Once you go into the guide and move up or down past the channel with no information, the guide info will usually fill in. If it doesn't fill in, then tune the channel from the guide and the info will load for that channel. Go back to the guide and it will be there.


If you want to see 24 hours ahead in the guide, type in 24 and then the browse (or forward arrow) key. To move back, type a number and the back arrow key.


Some brands of female coax connectors will appear to tighten, but the center may still be loose. Check for that on yours.
Even the coax that is included may do so.

- AGREE with all points, and just to test PQ, I have connected to SONY LCD, with RCA cables, gives me excellant picture, I just use it for the guide currently, a nice $20 feature.

Not quite. S-video is an improvement over composite on the same TV in almost every case. If anything, it'd be "upsampling", in a sense, from composite.

And read the reviews everywhere. The CM is clearly picked by everyone who's compared it as having the best PQ using s-video.

You have every right to consider the Pal better - but don't spout misinformation.

I meant the CECB restriction going from 1080i -> 480i. If you have a big enough TV or HD-ready where RCA looks bad, why would you even buy these? $80 more gets you 720p/1080i out via component. It's $20; PQ should be judged either acceptable or unacceptable.

Anyone who reads avsforum is not the target market.

Just came back from Sears on a research mission to see if they had any Pal Plus CECB's left. Not only did they, but they had stacks of them. The salesperson told me, "all we have left at the Pal Plus, no Magnavox." Seems that the Magnavox sold out due to their lower price according to him.

I guess lots of folks are buying by price not by features or quality.

The boxes for the Insignia and Zinwell were taped closed. Not the ones for the PP. I opened one up and was amazed at how small the box was - even smaller than the size of the Zinwell. It was barely the size of a paperback novel. (Regarding the light size being distracting - you should see the size of the light on the Insignia - if you find the green light distracting on the PP, you would not like the size of the blue and red lights on the Insignia! Not only are they very visible, both on and off, but they spread out horizontally at least two inches! In a way, the light design is sort of high-tech stylish.)

What impressed me about the PP is the labeling of the box - it was one of the most informative lableling packages I have come across. It actually stated that among the features was an event timer. The Zinwell box said nothing about that. It also had pictures of all the components inside the box, including a large picture of the remote, as well as a DISPLAY of the program guide, including the way in which it describes the content of a program. In fact, the information was done in a way that communicated that the company WANTED the consumer to know what the box could do.

I am leaning towards getting this for the potentially best EPG and will overlook the absence of control buttons on the box. I think I know better why Dish may not have put them on the box - the thing is so small there is barely room for anything else! I've never seen this box sold at any price lower than $59. I learned that K-Mart sells this also, for the same price.

What interested me concerning the labeling of the boxes was this issue - all boxes looked identical, all labled "Pal Plus" (all with the analog pass through), but while some boxes stated "enhanced tuner," other boxes did not state that. I wonder if these boxes did have different quality tuners based on the inclusion or absence of that reference.

I also wonder if come June, when stations are required to convert to digital, if the stations will, in fact, provide more extended tv program listings into the future. Newspapers are cutting back in their listing of programs. My paper used to carry 24 hour daily listings, then cut out the morning listings, then the overnight listings, now all it carries in its daily paper is prime time programming, which sometimes is inaccurate. It's almost like they have given up making any effort to offer complete listings, making onscreen listings of a tv guide or consulting with information on the internet mandatory in order to learn of future programs.

I may buy another one or two CECB's, and if I get the PP, I am leaning towards the Channel Master next, followed by either the Apex or Digital Stream. At this point, all of my CECBs (Insignia and Zinwell) offer nothing but "now and next" program descriptions, and I really miss not being able to see what's on beyond the next hour. As it is, most of the stations don't even have a listing. (When I press the "Guide" button on the Insignia and browse across stations, most of the time, there is no description other than for a few - the box requires you to tune into the station to learn of the program description. I have more hopes that the PP, CM, Apex, and DS provide more easily accessible and extensive program information.)

I'm really impressed at how some people here addressed my points, one at a time. Outstanding!

I now have a couple of more issues re the Plus that I hope someone here can help me with, plus some info that might help some of you:

1. On the other CECBs I have tried, the stations are referred to by known numbers such as 4.1 for what was analog channel 4 here in Boston. However, on the Pal Plus, that is shown as 070-01. Our analog channel 7 is shown as 071-01. Previous channel 44 is shown as 072-XX. and channel 56 is shown as 073-XX. I can still use the number pad and put in 4, 7, etc. and it will go to the digital channel that was analog channel 4, 7, etc. but in none of the information screens (info, browse, guide, etc.) are those numbers used, only the 070, 071, 072, 073. Confusing, especially since they are still referred to as channel 4, channel 7, etc. around here. (Boston area.)

2. The EPG displays the channels in reverse order, based on the old analog numbers, though it doesn't show those. So, in effect, on a given page, it might show from top to bottom what is called by others as channel 7-2, 7-1, 5-1, 4-1, etc. the old channels 7, 5, 4, yet it shows them as:
071-01 WHDH-HD
005-01 WCVB-DT
070-01 WBZ-DT
etc.
So it's not sequential by the new numbers, rather backwards by the old, unshown, analog numbers.

They let you rename channels, but not the number part, only the name.

What I'd personally like is this showing the numbers everyone else is using for these stations, and in ascending order, so it would show:
4.1 WBZ-DT
5.1 WCVB-DT
7.1 WHDH-HD

3. Someone asked if there was a way to get more program information. The answer is yes. There is an "Info" button on the remote that provides more detail about an individual program than is shown in the EPG screens.

4. I discovered that there is a 24x7 online chat free tech support line available for the Dish Network boxes, such as the DTVPal Plus. When you go there, they ask for an account number, so you have to tell them that you don't have one and just give your phone number and name. Then, it takes them a little time to educate them that you aren't using standard Dish Network products, and then even more time to explain that you are not using the DTVPal DVR, which is the only box they seem to think of first. But after that, they will go look things up and give you the answer to simple questions, such as telling me that there is no red light on the Plus. (The DVR has a red light when it's recording, so that took time to get them to understand what I was asking.)
FYI, the URL for that chat line is:
http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departme...formrf23.shtml

The guide will only show channels in descending order.
Intuitively, the up channel button on the remote takes you to a higher channel number.

The other thing that you mentioned about seeing channel numbers like 70 and 71 is not normal. You might want to go to the chat area for Boston and ask if anyone else in your area has that problem with the DTVPal Plus, to rule out that the problem is from local channels. Otherwise, something may be defective in your unit.

The DTVPal Plus should label the stations they same way they show up on your other CECBs. It's possible that something didn't go quite right when you did your original channel scan. Have you tried resetting the unit to factory defaults? That might clear up your numbering problem. It's worth a try anyway!

Tried resetting to factory defaults as Rick313 suggested and it corrected 2 of the 4 problem channels, assuming that it's normal to always show stations as XXX-XX. It fixed 4-X to now 004-XX, and 44-X is now 044-XX but it shows 7-X as 070-XX instead of 007-XX, and 56-X as 071-01 instead of 056-XX. So for some reason, it likes assigning some numbers from the 07X series. But at least it's a little better.

Sounds like it's probably some sort of PSIP issue then. You might want to check the thread for your local area to see if others are having the same issue.

You can find your local thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241

I just did the online chat with their (Dish Network?) adv. tech support group, they asked me for all the system ID numbers (HW, SW, etc.) and then had me unplug for 3 minutes, start all over, and said that everything looked fine from their end although still not from mine, so they asked me next to email their DTV product group. I did, but while waiting, will also do what you suggest now and check the local thread. I don't understand PSIP. Do you think that I should just exchange it with another of these at Sears, or will I end up with the same problem on that one also???

Try the local thread first. If others are having the same problem, then it's definitely not the Pal.

Correction on my previous post regarding the way in which the Insignia CECB guide button displays tv program names ... it does display the name of each program, BUT ... you have to have turned to that station for the guide to list the name of the program.

So, if you turn on the CECB, from the station that is viewed you then press the "guide" button, you can scroll right or left to view each station, but you will not see any program names because you haven't tuned to the other stations yet.

I don't know if the other CECB's work the same way. I'd hope that the other CECB's somehow just "know" what's on the other stations without having the user have to tune in first.

I'd guess that the Pal Plus somehow downloads this information, according to posts I have read, and that the download process may take a minute or so.

The recent post by lar01 caught me offguard regarding the way in which the PP codes stations with some bizarre xx-xx designation not corresponding to a more recognizable format. As it was suggested, it could have been a quirk, and by "rebooting" the box, the "error" may be corrected. One time I had a similar thing happen with the Insignia, where a station was listed as something other than what it normally appears as - the problem went away.

I wish these boxes were self correcting for audio mismatching with the visual. The Zinwell has done this a few times, corrected by the user switching to another station and then back again. But if you are taping a show and the synchronization goes awry, you are out of luck. You would think that with the technology today, these manufacturers would have included some builtin software to self-adjust for such an error. Then again, some stations are still broadcasting programs with occassional audio mis-synchronization with the picture on ITS end.

The Zinwell allows the user to "edit" the name of a station, like the PP. I don't think that it, too, allows for the changing of the number.

Unfortunately, you have to change channels on the CM, too, in order to see what's on and get all the program information.

The guide's not bad at all, but the CM's best attributes are really it's picture and reception quality (also, it's compatible with most IR-blastered recorders).

Rick/Mr. Watt - No answer yet on local board, but in the meantime, I unplugged overnight, tried again. I watched carefully as it scanned in the stations, and it showed all the right numbers during the scanning process, yet the program guide still shows the same wrong ones. 071 instead of 056, and 070 instead of 007. Looking back over the local area postings, it looks as if people had similar types of problems back in 2001, but not now.

I purchased a DTV Pal Plus converter at Sears this weekend. Simply put, I love this little converter. It didn't take a lot of getting used to, as I have a Dish Network 322 receiver. The DTV Pal's guide and basic operation is virtually identical, right down to the remote control. I've always loved the Dish Network remotes, and this one is no exception...and, like the Dish Network IR remote that came with my 322 receiver, the DTV Pal version has a very wide range.

What surprised me the most about this unit was its RF output. Don't know if I simply got lucky with this particular sample, but it is, without question, the best RF out I have ever seen in any device (and this is very important to me, as the converter signal is sent via RF out to two sets in other rooms of the house). Image is sharp and clear via RF out, with no discernible color bleeding...it's virtually as good as composite out, which is something I've never been able to say about any other product with an RF out that I've ever owned.

Image quality is noticeably superior to the Zenith DTT901, that this is replacing, when viewed via RF out, and seems just as good or even a bit better than the Zenith, to my eyes, when using composite out.

The onscreen clock has been off by as much as two minutes at times, but that's no major concern here. I didn't buy it for the VCR timer, and don't plan to use that feature--though I noticed that the timers do have an edit feature that could compensate for variances in the clock or program start/stop times.

The one concern that I have is the heat that others have talked about...not boiling hot, but noticeably warmer than the DTT901, which is well vented and stays cool to the touch. The heat seems to be coming mainly from the bottom of the DTV Pal Plus, so I have it positioned vertically.

As for tuner sensitivity, it seems to be a dead heat between the Zenith and the DTV Pal Plus. I don't see any appreciable difference...and channel changes are as rapid as one could hope for.

I'm very happy with the DTV Pal Plus.

I noticed a drawback when using a DTVPal Plus compared to previously using the original DTVPal/TR-40 CECB.

Apparently the Pal Plus' new tuner is configured differently, and negatively affects viewing when the unit is powered off
and viewing a source via analog pass through.

With the original DTVPal/TR-40 you could have the unit powered off and watch programming through the unit because it would be in APT.
When the unit powers on for maintenance, the APT source through the unit would not be affected. (Or in some set ups, reportedly slightly affected.)

With the DTVPal Plus, when you have the unit powered off and viewing an APT source through the unit, the APT source is completely blocked for the duration of the maintenance mode power on.

So you will have to have the unit powered on and select the "powered on" APT mode with the remote if you want uninterrupted APT.

Some may think, "Come June APT is a moot point". That simply isn't true, since there will still be analog stations available and other analog sources that someone may want to pass through a CECB.

For example, I have the RF out from a satellite receiver wired to three other rooms. The satellite receiver RF out provides the satellite signal or passes through the OTA antenna signal that is input to the Sat. receiver. I then have CECB's in the other rooms and can watch satellite when the CECB is in APT, or use the CECB when the satellite receiver is in OTA pass through.

Beeper

This is the one aspect of the converter that I dislike, though I opted to live with it using the workaround described above. On Monday night, one day after purchase, I tried disabling the auto shutoff feature, hoping this would take care of things, since both the manual and an onscreen message warn that doing so will prevent the DTV Pal Plus from performing routine maintenance. Unfortunately, it didn't work for me when attempted.

Analog passthrough is important for me as well, for similar reasons as you've described. I've been so pleased with the converter in other respects that I'm just going to live with this.

Got like a half an hour to make a decision before I have to worry about my coupon expiring. (transite time)

Can I change channels /volume etc when in EPG mode? Can I program the timer at the same time I am looking at EPG/with EPG?

Can I change channels when in EPG mode?
Yes, just select the program in the EPG that's curently being broadcast and it will change to that channel.

Can I program the timer at the same time I am looking at EPG/with EPG?
Yes, just select any program in the EPG that will be broadcast in the future and a timer will be created.
You can also delete any timer from the EPG as well.

Where can I buy one online? For the purposes of buying online, what hour does the coupon expire?

Where can I buy one online? = solidsignal.com

http://www.solidsignal.com/cat_displ...verter%20Boxes

PS: They are showing the DTVPal PLUS and the Zinwell ZAT-970A you were asking about in the 970 thread...

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EDIT: For the purposes of buying online, what hour does the coupon expire?

Solid Signals policy:
You must place your DTV converter box coupon order at least three business days prior to your coupon expiration date to provide Solid Signal adequate time to process and redeem your $40 coupon.

PS: There are a couple of other vendors that might have a less restrictive order placement time frame (like a couple of hours before coupon expires) but I don't think they carry the DTVpal Plus, Nor the Zinwell ZAT-970a

PS:There is a post /thread listing the time-frames for getting a order in -I'd point it to you but I don't have those links handy right now...

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