Epson 7500UB

The 7500 has a higher CR because it has an extra polarizer lens that helps control light leakage and blocks non desired light producing blacker blacks. The 7500 has a native contrast ratio of around 7000:1 which is mighty impressive in my opinion. With the dynamic iris it can go up to 75,000:1 as they claim. The same things happens with the new Mitsubishi Diamond pjs. The HC7000 has a 70k:1 ratio where the HC6500 has 18k:1. Everything else is the same (d7 panels, iris mechanism, etc). They just add that extra polarizer to give better contrast. The Panny AE3000 claims a CR of 60k:1 using this same technology.

The 7500 without iris should have better contrast than the 7100 without iris.
Also remember that the 7500 has a better video processor (Reon HQV) than the 7100.

Also, even though the panels are the same, Epson has tweaked the driver so it could do 120hz refresh rates. Again, all the new top-end LCD projectors have this feature.

The new D7 or D7 seem to be different from the older D7 panels, just not different enough to be called "D8". Additionally, it looks like there both organic and inorganic D7 panels now.

There's a lot of good discussion in this Epson TW5000 thread, which the European name for the 7500.

Not to muddy the waters any (I think Epson has done fine in that regard) but a prominent projector reviewer has blogged that in addition to the Pro 7500UB, there will be a Home 6500UB, which will sport the identical contrast, brightness and improved optics...it just won't have the HQV or 2.35 scaling and it will probably be significantly less as a result. This will be the one to watch for fans of the "bang for your buck."

I heard the 7500UB will not be available to purchase until December.

Can anyone confirm?

That seems like a really long wait to me atm.

Yes. We were told by Epson, December. no set price yet but under %5K. Will include a ceiling mount, spare bulb, and, if I remember, a 2 yr warranty instead of the home version one year.

Mark:

How big of a gap in picture quality did you observe between the epson and the jvc-rs20? Can we have some general impressions of both? Are you a dealer for both?

I'm pretty sure the 6500 and 7500 are identical, except the 7500 has additional ISF reserved custom settings options, an extra lamp, and comes a ceiling mount.

I sure hope the 6500 has the HQV Reon.

I don't think it does.

Yes. I sell both so of course one might accuse of being biased in my observations.

I had a private demo of the Epson on Sunday morning. Was terrific in the blacks and dark level scenes. I liked it, Can't say much more until I do an A/B/C vs other $4K (Mitsu)to $7.5K (RS20) machines.

I do not think the JVC is the end all. The machine is better than the RS2 mainly being sharper. I do not like the lens on the RS2, believing it to be not that sharp and having serious CA issues. I will NEVER have a projector with a lens that doesn't let one have all three primaries in focus at the same time. The RS20 uses a lens by a different manufacturer of the RS1 and RS2 lenses. The JVC folks were still working with the manufacturer of the RS20 lens in the hopes of ultimately having an even better lens. But in any event, it is still a cheap lens not approaching the good lenses on the 11S2, VPL-vw200 and the Joe Kane Samsung. According to calibrator friends, they viewed the CMS in the new JVC as a bandaid not allowing all the adjustments needed for a full proper calibration.

To me, the blacks were significantly better than on the JVC. But how good the lens is on the Epson, I have no idea. need to put up grids and lens test patterns. Ditto for the JVC. Its really hard reaching conclusions based on quick views in different environments at Cedia.

I liked the new Joe Kane Da-lite screen material and how the Joe Kane Samsung looked on it. Except for not as good blacks, but quite acceptable blacks, the Samsung is very very good. With the ires the blacks are very good. Remember the Mitsu and Epson use dynnic irises just as the Samsung does. The JVC doesn't. Everything is a trade off at these price levels.

I read this post, and just have my hopes up I guess.

I've made a full post about it here, but the Japanese Epson web page says it will be available in the end of/2nd half of November.

I might be slightly optimistic, but I think you'll see it in the states in November.

This is an interesting statement. I understand you need to spend more time with the projector to reach a conclusion on lens quality; however, it is the part about the grids and test patterns that I am taking exception on. Does this mean if you see some CA at the edges on a test pattern that it is no good? I know my IN83 has some CA that I can see from about 2-3 feet away at the edges but at my relatively close seating distance I can see no evidence of this CA on the grid let alone actual video material that I watch.

For me too the decision is mainly going to be between 7500UB and RS20.

(I will also look at AE-3000 and HC7000 reviews)

I am also curious what is the actual D65 lumens on the 7500UB? I would like to get a more accurate comparison of their brightness.

What would look better on my very large 160" 2.8 gain screen?

Also, Mark does your comapny have a website? I have gone with projector people in the past but am always on the lookout for a good deal.

Hey,
Click the "AVS Science Store" link in the upper left hand corner, this IS his company's website! : )

"To me, the blacks were significantly better than on the JVC."

You're saying the 7500's blacks were better than the RS20's?

Interesting, as that seems at odds with what everyone else has said, which is mostly that the JVC was better at everything.

How do you think the overall PQ of the 7500 compares with the RS20?

Cine4home measured 500Lumens @D65 but it dosent state which mode the lamp was in, ie, eco or high brightness.

Noah. I can only give my views, I really don't care about what everyone saw. The RS20 doesn't have improved blacks over the RS2. We are talking 30,000. The Epson with DI is around 70,000 to 1.. The blacks were deeper, darker on the Epson to my eyes. More like my CRT. Doesn't mean its overall better than the JVC. I will need them side by side. BC happens with a DI. Nothing is free. Trade offs.

Thanks Mark.

Yet another observer that was impressed by the epson at Cedia!

I really hope we can get some independent reviewers to take a close look at the epson. I also hope that epson officially details the differences between the 7500 and the 6500 since there seems to be some conflicting reports.

Of course, in a perfect world, I want to see a side-by-side with the jvc-rs20 with both of them in their best settings!

Millerwill: I am officially begging you to do that when you visit Jason this fall!

Not surprising the Epson had better blacks then the RS20 because the Epson is rated at twice the contrast. But one concern I have about the Epson is what do the highlights look like when the DI has completely closed down? On the Sony HS51a I have now, I like the dark blacks the DI helps create but the highlights get choked by the DI, so if a red light is blinking in the background it look dull and unrealistic.

That's the big reason why I like the JVC's, they may not have the contrast of a DI but you don't have choked highlights.

I remember that with the HS51's iris. The VW50and VW60 were much better though. There is, of course, a tradeoff with a dynamic iris. That being said, the Epson sounds like a fantastic achievement for LCD.

One thing to keep in mind is that your HS51a has IIRC < 1,200:1 static panel contrast, so has much less headroom to boost the video levels as the iris clamps. The 7500 based on prelim testing appears to have 7,000:1 static contrast!

True, which is why I have not ruled out the 7500... yet.


EDIT:
I just hope going from 7,000:1 to 75,000:1 the iris doesn't clamp down too much to chock the highlights in dark scenes.

That is the problem with using specs. I would bet a new car that the RS20 will average higher on/off CR than the RS2, but only if you take the bet quickly. I should tell you that from talking to a very knowledgeable engineer at JVC that I know, the RS20 that was in the booth was measured at higher on/off CR than any RS2 I've ever heard of for that throw (it wasn't at the longest end of the throw from what I could see). I think JVC is likely to beat the RS2 for on/off CR if we compare short throw to short throw and long throw to long throw (using iris open on the RS20), even though they didn't change the specs.

In the booth they wouldn't show it with the DI enabled, so it was probably under 10k:1. Did you see it with the DI enabled, or disabled?

--Darin

"One thing to keep in mind is that your HS51a has IIRC < 1,200:1 static panel contrast, so has much less headroom to boost the video levels as the iris clamps. The 7500 based on prelim testing appears to have 7,000:1 static contrast!"

That doesn't change the fact that if a dim scene has anything near 100 IRE in it, the 10:1 DI ratio (70k:1 from 7k:1) will dim it by 10X.

Yeah, the second time I went in they mentioned that the DI was not enabled. My first thought was they were targeting the jvc potential customers with that comment. I was tempted to ask them to show the menu settings to prove that the DI was disabled. The blacks looked very good if it was just their native 7000:1 --- I am a little suspicious.

Darin:
(1) Do you believe them that the DI was not enabled or was it just marketing spin? It sounds like you have a good eye for DI artifacts or perhaps you asked to see the menu settings.

(2) I know you loved the jvc, (as did I), but how did the epson stack up to the jvc in your eyes. Or if you are hesitant to compare due to control variables, what limitations did you observe with the epson?

Actually, the reason they wouldn't show it with the DI enabled is the same one as last year. That the main calibrator Epson uses was claiming that ANSI CR is all that really matters and on/off CR is just a marketing thing as the human eye can only see something like 1200:1. Also, they told somebody I know that the DI is bad because then the black level moves around, but not sure how that matches up with their claims that the human eye can't see much anyway. On Saturday I got to talk to this guy for a couple of minutes before he had to run and I explained some things to him, like that the human eye can see way over millions to 1 over time and can see over a CR range while at the beach and also while going into a dark cave later, so even if the human eye can only see some limited amount at once, a projector still has to be able to do a lot of CR over various images before we couldn't see beyond that. It was clear from what he said that he thought ANSI CR is what matters because it is a mixed image and we watch mixed images, but I explained that ANSI CR is an extreme mixed image compared to average movie content and on/off CR is basically at the opposite extreme, so together they give us some idea of things that are between them (mixed scenes of various levels). He seemed to understand that, although we didn't get to talk for long. Seemed like a really nice guy too and receptive to a different point of view once I gave him some reasons that make sense. I'm still baffled as to how much ignorance there has been and seems to be in this industry about CRs. As I said in another post, I wonder if audio has a bunch of experts or so called experts going around trying to downplay measuring the hiss/noise in silent passages as if that floor of hiss/noise is irrelevant. Arguing against on/off CR (basically the black floor for a white level) seems like close to the same thing to me (except for video instead of audio). ANSI CR is kind of like measuring the hiss/noise with loud rock music. It's relevant, but measures something different than the amount of hiss/noise you get for silent passages, while both are relevant.

I was sitting way off to the side for the Epson. I thought the blacks were pretty good, but could have been better. I would like to see some more of it, especially with the DI enabled. I didn't judge the JVC images a lot at the show. I looked for things like brighter corners on blackouts and didn't see any. I talked to a knowledgeable engineer about the CR they were getting and expect that I'll get to see an early one when a friend gets one for review. I don't worry much about things like whether the colors were calibrated right because they have a CMS. Much like I wouldn't worry a lot about crushed blacks or whites in the SIM2 demo just because that is what I saw with the way they had things setup (or their source material). I often get more excited knowing a projector has a feature I can use (like the manual iris in the JVC or choices for higher gamma than 2.2) than what things look like with the options they used for setup. Just like with projectors like the Sharp DLPs with 3 iris modes. If they showed them with open iris it would only tell me so much as I knew that I would mostly use the projector with the iris closed down (highest CR) if I got one.

Also, they often show material I'm not familiar with, so I would have to check that material out with another projector to compare fairly. Comparing different material on 2 different projectors can really throw you off.

--Darin

Is your point that a 7,000:1 native CR DI pj will not perform much better than a 1,200:1 native CR DI pj?

The 1080UB rated at 50,000:1 was measured by WSR at ~17,000:1 d65 calibrated. At ~3,200:1 static CR that is ~ a 5X multiplier. Yes in situation you described, which never occurs in real movie images, that 100 IRE object would dim by some factor depending on the headroom.

It doesn't? I can point out some images just like that. Why do you claim it doesn't?

--Darin

Darin:

Thanks for the response.

I look forward to your rs20 comments when you get to view it again --- hopefully soon!

Do you anticipate knowing someone with an epson as well that will let you analyze it?