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DaLite "JKP Affinity" HD Progressive and Enhanced Matte White screens - Page 3

post #61 of 134
12/18/08 at 10:52am
I should have been more clear. I have two rows of seating. The back row eye height is just below the projector. The two middle seats you are right next to the projector and the outer seats not far off (they are movie theater seats). The front row is a couch that can sit 3 and squeeze 4.

This enables me to have a 14' wide screen which is my primary objective. If I could do this with a unity gain screen then I'd be happy to. I simply don't know of a projector under $8k that can do this and still have great picture quality (ie RS20).

Since my screen is rather large and I'm sitting further back (15 feet and 19 feet), this makes the cone bigger allowing me to squeeze more people into it

However we are getting off topic so I'll leave it at that.
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post #62 of 134
12/18/08 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

My New Years resolution is to be more positive so I only have a couple weeks to get it all out.

Well then. We should hear your opinion on the format war, LCD vs. Plazma, Jets - Giants and any other number of contentious issues now.
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post #63 of 134
12/18/08 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post

I should have been more clear. I have two rows of seating. The back row eye height is just below the projector. The two middle seats you are right next to the projector and the outer seats not far off (they are movie theater seats). The front row is a couch that can sit 3 and squeeze 4.

This enables me to have a 14' wide screen which is my primary objective. If I could do this with a unity gain screen then I'd be happy to. I simply don't know of a projector under $8k that can do this and still have great picture quality (ie RS20).

Since my screen is rather large and I'm sitting further back (15 feet and 19 feet), this makes the cone bigger allowing me to squeeze more people into it

However we are getting off topic so I'll leave it at that.


My seating is back the same 15' and 19' for a 9' wide screen. HP no issue for us ... I suppose that would factor into the JKP HD progressive evaluation. Still, nobody like it. It's brightness was the key. If it were 1.5-1.8 gain it would be more worthwhile. The off white color of the surface combined with the 0.9 gain made for dull whites. To us it had a "contrast reducing" effect relative to the HP.
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post #64 of 134
12/18/08 at 1:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevivoe View Post

My seating is back the same 15' and 19' for a 9' wide screen. HP no issue for us ... I suppose that would factor into the JKP HD progressive evaluation. Still, nobody like it. It's brightness was the key. If it were 1.5-1.8 gain it would be more worthwhile. The off white color of the surface combined with the 0.9 gain made for dull whites. To us it had a "contrast reducing" effect relative to the HP.

To be fair, these two products are designed for entirely different purposes. It's an apples and oranges comparison.
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post #65 of 134
12/18/08 at 1:53pm
"So while all 3 people will see a nice bright image, they won't see the same gain."

Fair enough.

"Because due to how our eyes perceive images re brightness a different screen gain is going to require a different projector calibration to maintain overall image quality. You are going to calibrate your projector differently with a lower gain screen."

Likewise.

I guess I'm lucky to have a long narrowish room where all the seats get similar gain, or at least where I've never noticed any noticeable difference between them.
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post #66 of 134
12/18/08 at 3:14pm
Yes you sound fortunate. I was amazed how much the HP screen did even for my old Panny AE900 projector with a dim bulb. It gave it a sort of DLP-like kick and vibrancy.
I can only imagine how stunning a machine like a JVC RS1 or RS20 would look like on the HP.
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post #67 of 134
12/18/08 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevivoe View Post

My seating is back the same 15' and 19' for a 9' wide screen. HP no issue for us ... I suppose that would factor into the JKP HD progressive evaluation. Still, nobody like it. It's brightness was the key. If it were 1.5-1.8 gain it would be more worthwhile. The off white color of the surface combined with the 0.9 gain made for dull whites. To us it had a "contrast reducing" effect relative to the HP.

Our eyes tend to see the brightest gray as white and lower grays as gray, so if a brighter screen and dimmer screen are lit up at the same time viewers will tend to see just gray on the dimmer screen and not white. This would be true with the High Power right next to an even brighter material. So, while viewing them at the same time or very close to the same can be useful for some things, what really matters is how they would look all by themselves. In that case there are screen size and projector combinations where this 0.9 gain material would not be bright enough, but others where it would be plenty bright.

--Darin
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post #68 of 134
12/18/08 at 6:43pm
Ain't that the truth Darin! It's just amazing how perception of "white" changes as you compare screen samples. I agree strongly with those who think that, while side by side comparisons can show you some things about the differences in two screens, ultimately viewing a screen on it's own is the best way to determine it's suitability for
any particular set up.
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post #69 of 134
12/18/08 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Ain't that the truth Darin! It's just amazing how perception of "white" changes as you compare screen samples. I agree strongly with those who think that, while side by side comparisons can show you some things about the differences in two screens, ultimately viewing a screen on it's own is the best way to determine it's suitability for
any particular set up.


Hi Rich,

The basic rules of visual perception at play are "highest luminance rule" and "anchoring". Essentially the brightest grey becomes what we see as white, all other greys with less luminance become what we perceive as grey. When comparing screen samples, as you've found, this can/will provide false impressions and will seriously cripple ones perception of the less bright screen and often is accompanied with descriptions such as "dingy", dull, less contrast, etc. Kevivoes impressions provide a classic example of these rules of white perception, if Kevivoes screen sample had a higher gain than the HP it's the HP which would have appeared dull, grey, dingy, and less contrasty and the HP would be the screen which sucks. To reduce anchoring bias when comparing screens ideally the screen should be viewed by itself, the next best solution is to place the screen sample on a large black surround to provide a black border which will help mitigate the biasing human response.
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post #70 of 134
12/23/08 at 9:44am
So has anyone bought one of these DaLite JKP screens yet?
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post #71 of 134
12/23/08 at 9:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Hi Rich,

The basic rules of visual perception at play are "highest luminance rule" and "anchoring". Essentially the brightest grey becomes what we see as white, all other greys with less luminance become what we perceive as grey. When comparing screen samples, as you've found, this can/will provide false impressions and will seriously cripple ones perception of the less bright screen and often is accompanied with descriptions such as "dingy", dull, less contrast, etc. Kevivoes impressions provide a classic example of these rules of white perception, if Kevivoes screen sample had a higher gain than the HP it's the HP which would have appeared dull, grey, dingy, and less contrasty and the HP would be the screen which sucks.

Good theory...and it may work to some extent from a practical standpoint...BUT, the Stewart Firehawk (to varying degrees) ALWAYS looks somewhat "dingey" to me, and I ALWAYS have viewed it, at each and every site, by itself. I respect some others that swear that they have seen it with a fantastic PQ, but I cannot state the same.
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post #72 of 134
12/24/08 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Good theory...and it may work to some extent from a practical standpoint...BUT, the Stewart Firehawk (to varying degrees) ALWAYS looks somewhat "dingey" to me, and I ALWAYS have viewed it, at each and every site, by itself. I respect some others that swear that they have seen it with a fantastic PQ, but I cannot state the same.

I think that could be due to hotspotting. Since you get some point of the screen that is brighter, most of it will look a bit dull in comparison just like Hughman stated.

I at least experince it this way when watching football. The brightness in the center of the screen is looking ok, but no matter how much I crank open the iris of the projector the sides always like dim and dull. Even when the brightness is so high that I get eye fatigue and headache...

To combat hotspotting I would need to sit further away from the screen, but I like my 1.3 screen width viewing ratio and wouldn't want to go smaller.
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post #73 of 134
12/24/08 at 10:08am
Drexler,

What screen are you using?

EDTA: I see you are using the Firehawk. The Firehawk is an amazing screen. Some of the best projected images I've seen have been on a Firehawk. Unfortunately I found the hot-spotting to noticeable as well. Hence it looks like I'll use the ST-130 material in a light controlled room.
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post #74 of 134
12/24/08 at 11:03am
Rich,

I'm actually using a ReAct from Euroscreen, a grey 1.2 gain screen that is a cheaper version of the Firehawk (for those interested, see link below). They are quite similar in performance, although the FH is a tad brighter and has a little less sheen. I'm quite familiar with the FH as well and I know they hotspot in a similar way.

Fortunately I'm getting a cinema room soon with full light and reflection control, so I will be buying a white screen without the drawbacks of hotspotting and texture. Right now the Carada BW looks like the one, but I will hold the decision until the room as actually ready (summer?) and I've had the opportunity to test the different screen samples I obtained with my projector.

http://www.bjurab.se/product/product.asp?id=1072&cid=14
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post #75 of 134
12/24/08 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Good theory...and it may work to some extent from a practical standpoint...BUT, the Stewart Firehawk (to varying degrees) ALWAYS looks somewhat "dingey" to me, and I ALWAYS have viewed it, at each and every site, by itself. I respect some others that swear that they have seen it with a fantastic PQ, but I cannot state the same.

For me anyway there appears to be somewhat of a foot Lambert threshold where the picture just looks dim and bright outdoor scenes don't fool my pupils and are not convincing. Perhaps that's the case here, the Firehawk not matched properly with the projector to maintain adequate brightness on the screen. A second reasonable explanation for "dingey"ness of the Firehawk could be due to the environment they occupy. The Firehawk is typically marketing to and set up in less than ideal rooms ie: many of these room have little light control with white ceilings and light colored walls in close proximity to the screen. Often times, especially with a common white ceiling "surround" partnered with this screen, a light reflecting off the ceiling close to the screen could be the "anchor" for white thereby negating the perception of white on the screen.

I think Drexler brought up a potentially valid point as well. (not to imply any of my points are valid)

I suppose one more possible explanation for "dingy"ness is due to the optical sandpaper texture of the screen. When enough bugs get splattered on my vehicles windshield things start looking a bit dingy as well.
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post #76 of 134
12/26/08 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

For me anyway there appears to be somewhat of a foot Lambert threshold where the picture just looks dim and bright outdoor scenes don't fool my pupils and are not convincing.

Hughman-
BINGO...that is exactly what I am talking about. I do not need to compare or not compare another screen aside the Firehawk. An outside scene at the beach or desert (that I've seen portrayed on one) did not look bright, but, say...L.A. sky in the 70's...sorta dingey, and NOT convincing that this was a sunny day at the beach or the desert. I've seen it render dark scenes (POTC) pretty well, but otherwise, I personally do not find it to be satisfying for overall viewing. Then again, like FP, maybe no Holy Grail !
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post #77 of 134
12/26/08 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Hughman-
BINGO...that is exactly what I am talking about. I do not need to compare or not compare another screen aside the Firehawk. An outside scene at the beach or desert (that I've seen portrayed on one) did not look bright, but, say...L.A. sky in the 70's...sorta dingey, and NOT convincing that this was a sunny day at the beach or the desert. I've seen it render dark scenes (POTC) pretty well, but otherwise, I personally do not find it to be satisfying for overall viewing. Then again, like FP, maybe no Holy Grail !

Yes I'm sure this is true. It doesn't matter if your pupils are fully adjusted, I'm sure that your brain still knows at some level how bright the image is to some degree. I just wonder what this range is.
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post #78 of 134
12/30/08 at 12:21pm
Regarding pricing info on the Da-Lite JKP Screens, I have found out the following info:

110" in 16:9 is $2186.00 is the suggested retail for the JKP Affinity screen with the HD Progressive material
119" in 16:9 has an MSRP of $2418.00

Da-Lite offers these screens in several sizes, the ones I was looking at were the following:

100", 106" 110" and 119" diagonal in HD 16:9 and a 103", 115" and 125" diagonal in Cinemascope format 2.35:1.


I hope this info is useful.

Happy Holidays
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post #79 of 134
12/30/08 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pfeilschneid View Post

Regarding pricing info on the Da-Lite JKP Screens, I have found out the following info:

110" in 16:9 is $2186.00 is the suggested retail for the JKP Affinity screen with the HD Progressive material
119" in 16:9 has an MSRP of $2418.00

Da-Lite offers these screens in several sizes, the ones I was looking at were the following:

100", 106" 110" and 119" diagonal in HD 16:9 and a 103", 115" and 125" diagonal in Cinemascope format 2.35:1.


I hope this info is useful.

Happy Holidays

Thanks.
Any larger sized 2.35:1?
Masking?

Costs for 2.35:1?
I'm looking at screens right now, so this is very helpful.
I expect my JVC RS20 in on Fri.

Thanks again,

Mike
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post #80 of 134
12/30/08 at 12:54pm
Mike,

Just a thought, but since the JKP screens are low gain (<1.0) bigger screens than the quoted 125' might not go that well with the RS20? I would at least never dare to go that big without some serious gain or a really bright projector (read 3-chip DLP).
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post #81 of 134
12/30/08 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Mike,

Just a thought, but since the JKP screens are low gain (<1.0) bigger screens than the quoted 125' might not go that well with the RS20? I would at least never dare to go that big without some serious gain or a really bright projector (read 3-chip DLP).

Good points!
Mike
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post #82 of 134
1/3/09 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pfeilschneid View Post

Regarding pricing info on the Da-Lite JKP Screens, I have found out the following info:

110" in 16:9 is $2186.00 is the suggested retail for the JKP Affinity screen with the HD Progressive material
119" in 16:9 has an MSRP of $2418.00

Da-Lite offers these screens in several sizes, the ones I was looking at were the following:

100", 106" 110" and 119" diagonal in HD 16:9 and a 103", 115" and 125" diagonal in Cinemascope format 2.35:1.


I hope this info is useful.

Happy Holidays

Good info, thanks Pfeilschneid. Do you happen to have part numbers? Specifically for the 110" 16:9 Cinnema Contour (standard screen)? Thanks in advance.
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post #83 of 134
1/10/09 at 6:15pm
Does anyone have this screen in home yet?
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post #84 of 134
1/14/09 at 10:06pm
http://playback.avguide.com/issue/16
Review by David Birch-Jones in the latest 'Playback' online magazine.
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post #85 of 134
1/15/09 at 5:49pm
So, nobody has this yet? I really want one, but would like to hear some feedback first....
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post #86 of 134
1/18/09 at 1:30am
I don't know if this is of interest, but I received some screen samples from Da-Lite and Carada yesterday I ordered quite a few as I'm in the process of creating a semi-dedicated HT room. (going to be completely blacked out, velvet on the walls etc.)

I received:
Da-Lite
JKP Affinity HD Progressive 0.9
Da-Mat (1.0)
High Contrast Cinema Vision (1.1)
Cinema Vision (1.3)
Video Spectra 1.5
Pearlescent (1.5)

Carada
High Contrast Gray (0.8)
Classic Cinema White (1.0)
Brilliant White (1.4)
I haven't had a chance to see how any of them perform with a projector, but have had a look over them under normal lighting and have taken readings from each material with my i1Pro in reflectance mode.

The JKP screen material is by far the smoothest of the Da-Lite samples, all the rest have a visible texture.

It's actually very similar to Carada's Classic Cinema White material. The texture is almost the same, it's just a little bit darker, and has a black backing, whereas Carada's material doesn't have any.

Just from looking at the various materials, and looking over the results that I got with the i1Pro, I think I'm probably going to be ordering a Carada Brilliant White screen. My opinion may change when projecting an image onto the various materials though. (I'm probably not going to have a chance to do that until Tuesday though)


Firstly, here's the i1Pro calibration tile as a reference. I used this to create a custom white-point target in CalMAN to compare all the other screen materials against.


And here's the JKP Affinity HD Progressive 0.9:


Carada's Brilliant White screen, which only has slightly more texture. (it still has much less than any of the other Da-Lites)


The results for all the materials are available here.
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post #87 of 134
1/18/09 at 4:05am
Holy cow. I know the Carada BW has a reputation for being very neutral, but wow did it really measure that flat? Looks better than the JK material! (If I'm reading it right).
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post #88 of 134
1/18/09 at 4:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Holy cow. I know the Carada BW has a reputation for being very neutral, but wow did it really measure that flat? Looks better than the JK material! (If I'm reading it right).

It did. I just want to state again that I have not tried any of these materials with a projector yet, but certainly based off this and looking at the samples side-by-side, I think the Carada BW is what I'm going to buy due to the very fine texture (almost as smooth as the JKP screen) and reported lack of hotspotting.

In order of greyscale accuracy, going by the luminance corrected dE'76 numbers in CalMAN vs the i1Pro calibration tile:
  1. Carada Brilliant White dE 0.19
  2. Da-Lite High Contrast Cinema Vision dE 0.35
  3. Carada High Contrast Grey dE 1.00
  4. Da-Lite Video Spectra 1.5 dE 3.43
  5. Carada Cinema White dE 3.49
  6. Da-Lite Da-Mat dE 3.84
  7. Da-Lite Cinema Vision dE 5.22
  8. Da-Lite JKP Affinity HD Progressive 0.9 dE 5.57
  9. Da-Lite Pearlescent dE 7.22

That said, I don't think that's necessarily the best to worst screen materials in order though. While some may not necessarily be "neutral" screens, having too much red is probably preferable than a lack of it, as most projectors "run out" of red first.

It's also not taking things like gain, texture, viewing angle, "shimmer" etc. into consideration. Carada's high contrast grey screen is fairly accurate, but it's a very dark grey, and I doubt I would even consider using it unless I had a very bright projector or a very small screen. (again, my opinion may differ once I use it with a projector though)
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post #89 of 134
1/18/09 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

I don't know if this is of interest, but I received some screen samples from Da-Lite and Carada yesterday I ordered quite a few as I'm in the process of creating a semi-dedicated HT room. (going to be completely blacked out, velvet on the walls etc.)

I received:
Da-Lite
JKP Affinity HD Progressive 0.9
Da-Mat (1.0)
High Contrast Cinema Vision (1.1)
Cinema Vision (1.3)
Video Spectra 1.5
Pearlescent (1.5)

Carada
High Contrast Gray (0.8)
Classic Cinema White (1.0)
Brilliant White (1.4)
I haven't had a chance to see how any of them perform with a projector, but have had a look over them under normal lighting and have taken readings from each material with my i1Pro in reflectance mode.

The JKP screen material is by far the smoothest of the Da-Lite samples, all the rest have a visible texture.

It's actually very similar to Carada's Classic Cinema White material. The texture is almost the same, it's just a little bit darker, and has a black backing, whereas Carada's material doesn't have any.

Just from looking at the various materials, and looking over the results that I got with the i1Pro, I think I'm probably going to be ordering a Carada Brilliant White screen. My opinion may change when projecting an image onto the various materials though. (I'm probably not going to have a chance to do that until Tuesday though)


Firstly, here's the i1Pro calibration tile as a reference. I used this to create a custom white-point target in CalMAN to compare all the other screen materials against.


And here's the JKP Affinity HD Progressive 0.9:


Carada's Brilliant White screen, which only has slightly more texture. (it still has much less than any of the other Da-Lites)


The results for all the materials are available here.

Very cool.
I have all of these materials up on my "wall" right now testing them only subjectively.
I took a non-tripod pic and it was useless.
I actually set up a tripod last night to take some pics before my "sheet" comes down and the drywaller takes over tomorrow.
I'll see if I can do it between work today and a party this afternoon.

This is an extremely useful post for me.
I will probably call in my Carada BW 128" 2.4:1 screen order tomorrow am.
My subjective impression of the BW screen is that it is very nice.
I wish -- for my application -- that it had a higher gain, but it will work.

Thanks for your work.

Mike
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post #90 of 134
1/18/09 at 10:20am
The Carada BW material is great!
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