Legacy Whisper Dunlavy SC V opinions - Page 7

Here's the middle batch

Crap, it's not uploading the third or fifth picture of this last batch of five. My guess is because those two are the only pics that start off as over 2MB and the website's downsizer (or whatever it's called) only shrinks under 2MB pics!!!

I'll have to figure out how to make them smaller without zipping them! Then I'll post the last 3 pages, keeping them in order.

Any ideas?

I downloaded a free program to reduce the size of the two files that were giving me problems, so now I'm uploading the last three pages of the review.

Hopefully this helps...

I know you have a pair of the TSW-VI towers and at one point we talked about crossover possibilities. In going back and re-reading through this literature however, I was reminded that they have built in crossovers already!

Hopefully you find these two pages helpful...

I'll start with a model very few people know anything about; the Millennium!

And here's what three INCREDIBLY LUCKY PEOPLE have to say about them!

http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/dunla...9_1594crx.aspx

Another not so common model was the very elegant Sigma. They were basically souped up SC-IV/A's, with even more refined crossover networks, and thicker walls resulting in less flex / better bass. They had rounded corners everywhere and their grills didn't come all the way out to the edges like the regular Signature Collection speakers. They used the same drivers as the SC-IV/A's, but weighed 250 lbs @ $10k, as compared to the SC-IV/A's 190 lbs @ $8k or the SC-IV's 180 lbs @ $6k.

I owned a pair of these that now reside about two or three hours south of Paris! The new owner is retired and plays them every single day in his home out in the vineyards of southern France!! What a life; wine, cheese and a pair of Dunlavy's!

I'm going to end this session with probably the least known Dunlavy speaker; the 450 lb Magnus. It was an active (powered) speaker that John worked on for many years, but as far as I know never actually finalized. I don't think it ever made it into production, but please let me know if anyone has actually seen one outside of the factory.

Wow, thanks for posting all of that! I'm going to have fun sifting through all of it You're the man for holding on to that for all those years and now sharing it with us!

I never knew that any paperwork was generated on the Magnus! I've only read about it in an interview of Dunlavy by Stereophile, really cool stuff - fully active speaker with a flat face that achieved digitally what Dunlavy had previously had to do physically. From the sounds of it, they never made it out of the factory. I'd love to find out differently though...

It would be awesome if someone could pick up where he left off.

Huh, I just realized I conversed with the guy who's selling all the "new in box" Dunlavys last time he was selling them - I even have his first e-mail he sent me with all his asking prices. He's a pretty nice guy, said he was friends with Dunlavy and that he only lived 1/4 mile up the road from him. It appears he hasn't sold many, if any since the original ad, although most of his asking prices have decreased slightly.

Original e-mail (April 2009):


New e-mail (Jan 2010):


I'm not sure if the used speakers are all his or not, I know the SC-III's and Alethas are though. I just asked him what the "mods" were on the SC-V's, and here's is response to my previous inquiry about the blemishes on the SC-III's:


So it sounds like the blemishes go beyond cosmetic ones. I've seen SC-III's sell for up to about $1700 for a pair in really good condition, I think $1500 is high for ones with cosmetic and possibly functional issues. When I talked to him last year, he was just contemplating selling his Alethas, and was asking if I was interested for $4000 for the pair.

Overall he's got a great batch of speakers, I just personally think he thinks they're worth way more than they are given that they come with no guarantee or warranty of any sort.

Geeze, those specs are making me DROOL! Sounds like he had a really fantastic loudspeaker - my favorite part was that he said it would perform better than most commercial CD-players and digital processors. At that point, the old axiom that your loudspeakers are the weakest link in the chain flies right out the window!!

I found the dimensions to be interesting: 75" tall by 35" wide by 19" deep - is this saying that, contrary to most of his previous designs, that the face of the Magnus was to be significantly wider than it was deep? 35" is pretty freakin' wide...talk about a huge footprint! As tolerant as my wife is of my Dunlavys, I don't think she'd let speakers of those dimensions get placed anywhere but a dedicated room Still, the "what ifs" of these speakers are truly staggering...

Earlier in the thread, I had also posted those original prices (page 4/entry #109). But as much as I love Dunlavy (and usually get along wonderfully with fellow admirers), I haven't had the best interactions with that guy you called nice. He's definitely polite and always addresses everyone as sir, but he's left me hanging three times in the past.

My mortgage business went under in Jan 2007 and soon thereafter, I could already see that I'd eventually have to sell my toys just to stay afloat. Since I loved my big Dunlavy's so much, I figured I'd start looking for the smaller models. Right around then, Carl posted a local ad on Craigslist for three SC-I's in excellent or mint condition. I got a hold of him and we agreed to a sale, but he was too busy to meet with me anytime soon. After several conversations he ended up saying he would drop them off when he came up to Denver that weekend, so I gave him my address. The night before he was scheduled to drive up, I called to confirm and he told me the speakers had been damaged when his basement flooded and "he wasn't comfortable" selling them like that. He said he'd repair them and get back with me. After a few follow up calls and unanswered voicemails, I gave up trying and never called back. Backout #1.

A year later I put my Dunlavy Corinthians up on Craigslist. He emailed saying he definitely wanted them; they would match up sonically with his Aletha's. He asked for my address and asked me to hold them since he couldn't drive up till the weekend. No problem; I gave him my address again and took them off the market since it was (free) Craigslist and since he sounded so serious. After WEEKS of back and forth emails and several unanswered voice-mails, he finally told me his accountant stepped in and told him not to buy anything big. Backout #2. I put them back up for sale.

A month later I put my SC-V's up locally on Craigslist. He called me saying he wanted them. I told him I was leaving for Quebec, Ontario in the morning to personally deliver the Dunlavy Corinthians he had backed out of, and that I would have to get back with him when I returned from the six day road trip. He said he wanted to "secure the deal" before I left. I told him that because of the past two experiences I'd had with him, I wanted a non-refundable $500 PayPal deposit before I left with the rest due when I got back. He agreed. I reiterated and he agreed again!

Since I left before daybreak, I called my daughter mid-morning to check my PayPal. No PayPal. At 3pm he ended up sending me an email asking for my address so he could instead mail a post-dated check that was not to be cashed until he could come to check out the speakers. I had my daughter type back a reply telling him how frustrating it had been dealing with him via back and forth emails and that I would no longer do business unless it was on the phone. He continued to send emails anyway, and I eventually stopped replying. Once again, he broke a specific deal we had already agreed to. Backout #3. Ironically, in an email he later accused me of becoming pushy and condescending, completely ignoring the fact that he had been the cause of all this!

There! That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

And although I've personally had negative experiences with him, it shouldn't take away from the fact that he's selling some pretty awesome speakers. And because of the earlier conversations I've had with him about the products, the Company, Kenny at Wybron (the new owner), and even John Dunlavy himself, I can definitely vouch that he's not some scam artist out of Nigeria. But as with all dealings, let the buyer beware. And I'm only sharing this as a precaution to my fellow Dunlavy followers. Nuff said...

That's definitely a bummer to hear about your experiences. Thanks for the heads up though. I'm going to see if he's willing to work with me on his prices, and if not then too bad. If he really thinks that he can get $10K for a used pair of SC-V's when I've never seen a pair of SC-VI's go for that much, he's going to be holding on to all of these speakers for a very long time.

Just for the record I sold my excellent condition, all-original black SC-V's to a buyer in the Netherlands for $5,500 about a year ago. The buyer ended up paying an additional $500 for custom made crates, plus $1,400 for shipping, plus European Import taxes, plus VAT (Value Added Tax).

So by the time it was all said and done, he paid almost $11,000 (US) altogether. OUCH!

And yet, he couldn't be happier since you just can't find those in Europe!

Hey thanks for redirecting me back to this post. I've been trying to get a hold of this guy with the speakers, asking for a list, etc. for days now. No responses. Seeing what he's asking, I think it's far too high. I'll reiterate what I've seen on Audiogon before - SC-V for about $5000. It's nice to think about owning more of this stuff...but the price is not right.

Shocked - thanks for putting up all of that info. When I'm not at work, I'll read through it. I can't wait to sift through the TSW-V stuff, as I have no info on my TSW-VI pair. I briefly saw the recommended room size, because as I'm drawing my designs for my room, I should make sure I'm bigger than that. When I rebuild the house from scratch size won't be a problem at all...but right now limited to about 22x18x7 eeek.

Well, I wish we could all get together, and start manufacturing these things again...the fan club designing and selling speakers to spread our passion... just a dream, of course.

Mike

In my second to last and last e-mails I asked him about the mods to the SC-Vs. He didn't answer my question at all in his response to the former, and hasn't even replied yet to the latter. It's been 3 days...


I know I'd have the desire/passion to do this, but what would be impossible to reproduce would be Dunlavy's brilliance. Or, at least I know I could never fill those shoes...

And I'm in Sales when we resurrect John Dunlavy. Once in my life I'd love to sell a product that I REALLY believed in and was excited about.

You guys are getting me all hot and bothered over here!

Getting a hold of Kenny at Wybron isn't difficult; the problem is we need somebody with deep pockets cause I'm guessing those intellectual property rights won't be cheap. And I wonder how much is left from the old factory that we could easily re-use, so then we'd have to figure out where to actually build them? I'm in Colorado and I know Mike is at least 1,500 miles northeast of me. Where are you Jive Turkey and HogPilot?

Monterey, Ca.

I really wonder though if there's enough market to go around for such a venture, even if this was more than just funning around? The High End is more of an isolated niche than ever. I run a Lumberyard and Hardware store, and the old saying in our business is don't sell what you like, sell what'll turn.

Deep pockets wouldn't be me. After putting two kids through college, there ain't much of a pot to piss in.

By the way....what was the story with this Wyborn company and why didn't they continue once they bought the company?

The only thing I know for sure is that they continued for "about" a year after Dunlavy left. I remember reading in some magazine (probably Stereophile, Widescreen Review or The Absolute Sound) that when he sold it, he had been looking forward to being able to just focus on Research and Development. I don't know if that ever actually happened, since I've also heard that the new management had explored using computers to design the crossovers instead of John's old way. Please note that none of this is firsthand from anyone who actually worked there, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this!

My "edumacated guess" is that the company ultimately went under for a combination of the three following factors:

A) Poor marketing plans. Especially in the earlier years dating back to when he started Duntech in Australia! How many of you have ever actually seen a Dunlavy / Duntech advertisement? I can only think of one for each company. And those weren't very good ads at that! I really don't think Wybron ever had a fighting chance...

B) Underpriced speakers. I strongly believe that if John had priced his speakers at least twice as much, people would have taken him much more seriously from the get-go. People buy into the perception that you get what you pay for! And while other high end companies were charging five (or more) times what he was charging, he was actually producing better products. But John thought that anyone and everyone should have access to good sound. Unfortunately you can't market a product very well if the revenue from that product isn't what it should be. You also can't turn out the beautiful, fancy, glossy, wife-friendly finishes that most high end companies put out if you have to meet a restrictive price point! But here again, John's decision that "if it didn't improve sound why put it in there" probably ended up hurting him in the end. The huge coffin look just never took off, I guess...

C) Stubbornness. John's theories sometimes went against the popular consensus and he was often challenged by idiots who swore they knew more! His choice of drivers was often highly criticized, even though his own research showed that exotic drivers were in most cases actually worse than the simple treated paper cones he preferred. And everyone also complained about the use of cheap tweeters and crossovers parts. Stereophile magazine didn't help when (I think it was) John Atkinson challenged some of his ideas. The irony is that while he questioned his thoughts, he could find NO FAULTS with the actual end results of his speakers!!! Go figure...

As you can see, a lot of these issues overlap each other in this vicious cycle that ultimately ended up shutting down the production line!

And if anyone's wondering, Yes, my degree was in Business Administration with an emphasis in Information Systems, so I call first dibs on the business/marketing aspect of the new and improved "Dunlavy" company!

I noticed that Carl re-posted his Dunlavy speakers yesterday, but unfortunately for the same exact prices he had asked for earlier (http://cosprings.craigslist.org/ele/1588914102.html). The good thing is now he also posted the prices in the actual ad.

The best part though, is he included specs for the lesser known models he's selling! I'll paste those here, so they're permanently accessible to anyone who might need them:

SC-1av

Arrangement 2 - way
Woofer (2) 5.5"
Tweeter (1) 1" soft dome
Frequency Response 75Hz - 20kHz, +/-1.5dB
Video Shielding Yes, standard
Dimensions 20"H x 8"W x 10"D
Weight 25 lbs
Sensitivity 91dB
Impedance (Nominal/Min/Max) 7/4/10
Retail Price $1,800/pr
Notes - Despite only 10hz more bass extension, the SC-1av sounds much fuller in the bass the the original SC-1 due to better woofers. Ideal in stereo or as a **lcrs in a 5.1 channel system with a subwoofer.

CC-1

Arrangement 2 - way
Woofer (2) 5.5"
Tweeter (1) 1" soft dome
Frequency Response 75Hz - 20kHz, +/-1.5dB
Video Shielding Yes, standard
Dimensions 20"H x 8"W x 10"D
Weight 25 lbs
Sensitivity 91dB
Impedance (Nominal/Min/Max) 7/4/10
Retail Price $1,095/ea
Notes - This center channel speaker is identical to the SC-1AV except for a slight angle to the baffle board. This angle allows the CC-1 to focus the sound for optimum performance when placed below or above a television, or in a bookcase. It can also be used in any channel of a home theater as a **lcrs.

SC-2a

Arrangement 2 - way
Woofer (2) 6.5"
Tweeter (1) 1" soft dome
Frequency Response 60Hz - 20kHz, +/-1.5dB
Video Shielding Optional ($100/ea)
Dimensions 25"H x 11"W x 13"D
Weight 45 lbs
Sensitivity 91dB
Impedance (Nominal/Min/Max) 5/3/7.5
Retail Price $2,700/pr
Notes - This speaker is sonically identical to an SM-1. The model change was to avoid the confusion between the SC-1 and the SM-1. A large improvement in bass response and output capability compared to the SC-1AV. Enough bass for stereo listening or as an **lcrs with a subwoofer.

CC-2

Arrangement 2 - way
Woofer (2) 6.5"
Tweeter (1) 1" soft dome
Frequency Response 60Hz - 20kHz, +/-1.5dB
Video Shielding Yes, standard
Dimensions 25"H x 11"W x 13"D
Weight 45 lbs
Sensitivity 91dB
Impedance (Nominal/Min/Max) 5/3/7.5
Retail Price $1,450/ea
Notes - This center channel speaker is identical to the SC-2a except for a slight angle to the baffle board. his angle allows the CC-2 to focus the sound for optimum performance when placed below or above a television, or in a bookcase. It can can also be used in any channel of a home theater as a **lcrs. The CC-2 has clearly superior bass response and dynamics compared to other similarly priced center channels, even at it's original price.

SC-3a

Arrangement 3 - way
Woofer (1) 10" (downfiring)
Midrange (2) 6.5"
Tweeter (1) 1" soft dome
Frequency Response 27Hz - 20kHz, +/-1.5dB
Video Shielding No
Dimensions 52"H x 11"W x 14"D
Weight 85 lbs
Sensitivity 90dB
Impedance (Nominal/Min/Max) 4/3/6.5
Retail Price $5,500/pr
Notes - Sonically identical to the Aletha and Cantata which were condensed down to this one model to avoid consumer confusion. The SC-3a's cabinet has rounded edges and a full length grille compared to the Cantata giving it a much more attractive streamlined appearance. This is the smallest and most affordable Dunlavy with truly full range bass. Most subwoofers can't go as low as the SC-3a!

SC-4a

Arrangement 3 - way
Woofer (2) 10"
Midrange (2) 5"
Tweeter (1) 1" soft dome
Frequency Response 25Hz - 20kHz, +/-1.5dB
Video Shielding No
Dimensions 72"H x 12"W x 18"D
Weight 190 lbs
Sensitivity 91dB
Impedance (Nominal/Min/Max) 5/3/7.5
Retail Price $9,000/pr
Notes - This brilliant redesign of the famous original SC-4 extends the bass to 25hz with it's new Scanspeak woofers and crossover. It sounds much fuller in the bottom end with a noticeably warmer and smoother tonal balance than the SC-4 and is a major upgrade.

SC-S1

Arrangement Powered Subwoofer
Woofer (1) 12" downfiring
Amplifier 250 watt Class D Amp
Frequency Response 25Hz - 110Hz, +/-1.5dB
Video Shielding No
Dimensions 18"H x 16"W x 20"D
Weight 85 lbs
Retail Price $1,700/ea
Notes - Only a few of these were made. It uses a different 12" woofer than the SC-5 that is specifically designed for a much smaller box. We were lucky enough to audition a prototype in April of 2002 at our store and were able to hear it outperform the B&W and Velodyne subwoofers that sold for the same money

SC-S2

Arrangement Powered Subwoofer
Woofer (2) 12" downfiring
Amplifier 400 watt Class D Amp
Frequency Response 23Hz - 110Hz, +/-1.5dB
Video Shielding No
Dimensions 18"H x 18"W x 30"D
Weight 105 lbs
Retail Price $2500/ea
Notes - Only a few of these were made. It uses a different 12" woofer than the SC-5 that is specifically designed for a much smaller box. We were lucky enough to audition a prototype in April of 2002 at our store and were able to hear it outperform the B&W and Velodyne subwoofers that sold for the same money.

Dunlavy's bass response cutoff's that we have quoted are at the minus 1.5dB point, and are taken in an anechoic chamber. An anechoic chamber is a reflectionless room, extremely heavily damped, used for measurement purposes only. It allows the room to be ignored leaving only the speakers performance behind. Most other companies quote the less stringent minus 3dB point measured in a room of their choice. This results in a much more impressive if less accurate and repeatable specification. Due to the bass gain resulting from room boundaries, add about 1/2 octave of bass for the minus 3dB point in a typical listening room. This means you will get significantly more bass in your room than the anechoic measurement suggests. Ie., depending on room setup, we were often able to measure the SM-1/SC-2a in room bass response to 40hz (-3dB point) despite a 60hz minus 1.5 dB anechoic cut off.

**lcrs -An abbreviation for a speaker that may be used with equal effectiveness as a left, right, center, or surround speaker. In a perfectly setup surround system, all 5, 6 or 7 speakers would be identical to achieve the most realistic sound stage. This is why the SC-1av is driver and cabinet matched to the CC-1 center , and the SC-2a is driver and cabinet matched to the CC-2 center. This is also why all Dunlavy models use the same tweeter and the drivers are all graded carefully so that there is no discontinuity in sound between channels.

ok, so we have sales, business/marketing...

...damn...what do I do?? become the audio evangelist and tour with followers converting others around the world?

actually, I think measurement would be up my ally. I'd sit around that anechoic chamber all day and measure driver peformance...matching...I'm so highly tweaky that I'd have fun at this all day... insisting on tight tolerances and signing off when perfect

Agreed on all points.

As previously noted, I was a Dunlavy dealer for 5 years. Near the end, John and Joan had me come up to Colorado Springs and talk about buying his company and I said I would consider it as long as John would stay around, but they did not want to do so.

John D was the antithesis of David Wilson. John was an engineer and scientist (a bazillion patents on antennas) but NOT a marketing guy. He only started doing print ads near the end when Widescreen review traded him print space for speakers. When Andrew Rigby was his marketing guy, he was very restricted on what he could spend and had close to zero time in front of dealers doing training, sales assistance, etc.

Wilson's incredibly expensive speakers have been successful in large part because he has spent a LOT of $ on marketing.

I tried to get John to build the SC VI in some kind of exotic cabinet desinged by someone so it did not look like a large coffin --- to no avail.

I don't believe their is any room in the speaker market for anything but botique speaker companies (which 95% are). I don't care how good of a speaker you build, in this market, you would have to spend a LOT of money tryiing to get "shelf space" and I'm still not sure you would ever turn a profit.

My 2 cents!

And the guy trying to sell those Dunlavy's needs to take some reality pills --- all are grossly overpriced--grossly!

Hey everyone! I didnt realize this thread was still active. I've been sitting around waiting for a note in my email letting me know. Silly me.

Anyway...........

Thanks to Shocked One for all the uploads! Thats some cool stuff.
I'm still looking for anyone willing to snap off some hirez shots of crossovers. 4a,5,6& TSW would all be beneficial for the archive project. Its really the only stuff I have left to cover. And actually, I did have those before but were lost to an unfortunate HDD crash.

The idea of rejuvenating the old Dunlavy line is maybe not so far fetched an idea. I happen to be friends with the man who was responsible for gathering the investors/capital to start DAL in the first place and who worked at the company for several years thereafter. He had unprecedented access to all of the work John had done. He even has the original SC-I prototype still in his garage! I've been pestering him for years to go through his records to dig out all the old documentation but I've seen his office and I cant honestly blame him for not trying so far. haha. But I'm not giving up.

I think I have an idea of whats up with those "modified" SC-V people are wondering about. The details of them was lost on that ill fated HDD I had but I distinctly remember there being a pair of the SC-Vs that had been assembled and tested using driver models that John had experimented with but ultimately abandoned for the Vifas he ended up using. My guess is that this is that same pair that has resurfaced again. But its only a guess.

One last thing for now. I have the seven part series that appeared in Widescreen Review where John wrote about all the things important in speaker design. If anyone is interested I'll figure out a way to post it here...........

Cheers,

Champ...

Yes...I was supposed to provide you with SC-IV crossover pictures. Still need those or just the IV/A? I'm taking images this weekend because someone else enquired about it as well...so it'll get me moving.

Stupid Question: I'm not gonna screw this speakers up after taking these crossovers off, am I? I'm just paranoid as I have no idea how much room I have on the other side, or if I'm gonna start some rattles or screw up the threading of the screw to the speaker...

Yes, any pictures you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Top and Bottom if you dont mind. Thanks!

You really have nothing to worry about by taking out the crossovers. Everything is secured to the printed circuit board and there is more than enough extra wire to be able to pull it out and flip it all around.
Putting it all back in is just as easy and as long as you arent using some industrial hammer drill with tons of torque as a screwdriver you dont even have to worry about the screws.

Thanks again!

Something's wrong with me. I get excited just seeing a new post to this thread.

Me TOO!

Here's something for all the Dunlavy fans out there.
John wrote a 7 part series for Widescreen Review describing all the things he thought was important to speaker design.
All seven parts are contained within a single PDF file. ~5Mb
It's not professional quality but I think its quite readable. In either case, its the best I can manage at the moment. Enjoy!

http://rapidshare.com/files/355279298/Dunlavy_WSR.pdf

Or,

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FX4ASJOM

Champ

I took photos of my SC-IV last night. My friend has a really high rez camera with a superb lens...some $4000 worth of... he used two different lenses to capture. He's got all of the photos and is putting them together for me. When I get them, I suppose I'll post a few on this thread but I'm sure you'll want the images untouched so PM an email address I can send them to.

The back of the panel has an inspection sticker saying Jan. 22, 1996. The circuit board said something along the lines of SC-IV VER C on it. Cool to see all of those coils are made in Canada. Other parts made in France. Heavy buggers too!! It's no wonder that thing is secured so well in there!!

It looks like, after a brief hiatus, Carl has re-posted some of his Dunlavy ads on Audiogon. Unfortunately he's still asking prices well over what I'd pay for a product with no warranty and no support (and, in some cases, no replacement parts!). I brought the issue up with him once and he really didn't address it, instead focusing on the fact that these are brand new and that they'd be "going fast."

Just curious, has anyone else that's contacted him had any success in addressing this issue with him? It's a shame that he's sitting on all these great speakers.