Dual subwoofers of different sizes

I was wondering the same thing. I have an MFW-15 on order and lets say I wanted their new $2000 dollar sub in the future would I just disregard the MFW-15 or could they be played together?

Having two speakers with different responses takes more to set up in regards to EQ/crossover work, but it can be done.

Try it and see. But it's easier to run say 2 Mfw 15 and 2 Epik Knight. Can't say which is better but they would probably have close to the same response. If you use a 8" sub with 12" I probably would set the cross over higher on the 8" so they won't bottom out trying to keep up with the 12". But that's is the are say equal. I'm sure there are better built 8" than some crappy 12" but you get what I'm saying

I've done it. So far I'm pretty pleased with the results. I'm running a Velodyne HGS15II along with a Velodyne DD18.

Dunno maybe the smaller subs by your mains?? Try it both ways.

I am thinking about adding an Energy S10.3 to my Mirage S12. The configuration would be LF then SW then C then SW then RF. Would that be benefical? They are not exactly the same sub, but almost. Also, when I run advanced MCACC how would that work with the dual subs?

You may have to experiment on this man!
Try it and see for yourself...

If you already have the sub I would try it. HT you may not notice much difference Music you may.But I wouldn't buy an Energy to have 2 subs I would get a bigger one than the S12.

Thanks, I am seriously considering replacing the Mirage with an Epik "Valor" or "Castle". I know the Castle is better, but home much? Is it almost $500 worth? Would the Valor be a significant upgrade over my Mirage?

Thanks

No, it is not trial and error. Unless you are very lucky, it usually requires some sort of EQ capability to do it correctly. If not done correctly you can actually end up wasting the potential of the subwoofer that has greater low-end capability.

Please see THIS thread for more info, particularly Post#9 and Post#10.

You said you live a drive away from Epik? I'm sure they will let you take one home to try out?? At least something they may have laying around to compare. Or bring your sub there?? But I would get a Knight if you need HT. Suppose to be 50% better than the Valor. The Valor is good and if you have the space make the upgrade the best you can. The Castle would be good but if you are trying to save?? Epik says 2 Valors will compete with the Castle in Db but not go as low FWIW. Incase you want 2 subs for room responce in a large room. The Valor may blend well with your S12?? It's all about how much you want to $pend.

Mismatched duals can create more problems than they solve unless you have eq and a lot of patience and time to experiment.

Yep. I think this falls on deaf ears, mostly. Which I don't really understand. A better sub alone is better than a better sub plus the lesser one it replaced.

Thanks, that is very good information!

I agree a better sub alone is better then the lesser one but depending on what the lesser one is and how they are placed. Collated my subs 2 Pb10 and 1 Valor sounds like one big sub. On different sides of the room you still can't tell with Ht. Music you still really can't tell because the subs you can't tell where the subs are. But my room is small. 2,000^3. IME range is similar but the Valor has more punch. But if you don't know which side the single sub is you won't know when there's 2 unless they cancel each other. Unless you have a really crappy sub and a really good sub I would always say try it. Just from what I hear and a few comparisons with friends. My ears are made of "Iron" not "gold" so this may not apply to some.. JME I know what I hear and can't. And it never hurts to try yourself before you give up on the lesser sub.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...p/DSC06121.jpg

I don't know how different the Valor and PB10 are on the low end, but do you understand the issue that you will encounter if you use 2 subs that have different low-end capability? The same issue is there at the top-end, too, but usually the AVR's crossover is low enough so that both subs, individually, still have flat FRs around there. Even if they have the exact same -3dB point, I suspect that the sealed Valor's roll-off is completely different than the PB10s. And that has implications for your combined subs' performance at the lowest end.

How do you calibrate your 3 subs, exactly?

I am scratching the thought of duals now. For me its between the MFW-15 and Epik Castle now

The Valor and Pb10 both have about the same extension on the low end. Point is I play all three and they sound good. If I play just the 2 Pb10 you can tell there is missing mid. So how can that be bad mixing subs? Sure 3 Valors would be better but the low extension is good on the Valor to mix well. Most important thing is how well they sound together right. The Valor by itself sounds good. The 2 pb10 give alot more overhead in the low. The Valor keeps up in the low. No different than adding a Hsu imo. I know what I hear. Otherwise I wouldn't do it simple.

You can't tell with your ears whether you are cheating yourself on the low end or not.

Got any measurements? And how do you calibrate 3 subs? By ear?

No way, if you place them properly.

The trick is, use the "best" sub in a corner, and place the others around the room to improve the overall response in the upper reaches of the subwoofer system's passband. Oh yeah, and seal everything so you don't have annoying cancellations due to phase at the bottom of the woofers' respective passbands.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future, I have a monster sealed DIY Maelstrom-X 18" in the front-right corner as my main sub, and I use two 12" Aura NS12's around the room to smooth out the response. One is against the front wall, the other about 42" from the back wall. The NS12 is a good driver, very linear and very clean, but obviously they don't have nearly the output potential of a 33mm xmax 18. BUT, they do a fantastic job of smoothing the overall room response from 40-120Hz even without extra EQ.

I don't have a laptop yet to do any measurements.
But I have used down loaded test tones with a spl meter to see what the difference in db increase there is between 1,2 and 3 subs. Maybe crude but it still gives me an idea. I know how loud the subs go with 1,2 and 3 subs playing in over all spl.You can find many measurement of the Pb10 and you can look at the Epik thread pg13 post #389 and someone charted ther Plus/2 and there Valor. My meter shows the Valor going as loud as 2 Pb10 in the low end with test tone. Yes it may not be accurate but I doubt I'm being cheater with a sealed Valor on the low end. My point is I wouldn't use 3 if it wasn't better for HT. The 3 play alot louder than 2. Different subs yes sound good yes. Sure 3 or 2 Valors would probably be better but that wasn't an option at the time. And I can truly belive 2 Pb10 and one Valor would sound better than 3 Pb10. So ime similar subs work in my room collated. So what different subs have you compared to know it won't possibly work? I agree a Vrp1000 won't mix well with a Pb13 ultra.

Please read the explanation of why it is problematic in the thread I linked to in Post#13, above. Without EQ, unless you are very lucky and your room somehow solves the problem, there is no getting around it. The issue is pretty obvious. It's not rocket science. I do not understand why people have such a problem grasping it.


Based upon this response, I would be led to say that you do not really understand the issue. Have you read the posts of craig john's and mine at the link I am referencing or not? And if so, is the issue apparent to you or not?

You still have not explained how you calibrate your 3 subs. Ideally, the goal would be for each individual sub to contribute equally to the overall output. Collocated like that it may not be so important, but I would still be interested to know how you decided to split the duty across the 3 subs and what your logic or rationale was.

Due to the fact that both subwoofers have vastly different output capabilities (and FR curves), how would you maintain less distortion and greater output across the range without causing phase issues and/or causing distress to the weaker subwoofer as output increases ?


How do you calibrate two subwoofers with two completely different LF curves and output capabilities without causing phase anomalies and/or bottoming of the weaker subwoofer at increasing output levels ? How would you calibrate as to maintain a linear progression in both output and frequency response ?

I have pen and paper at the ready.

Regards,

I read the link. Yes I understand it's not hard. For me it's pure spl for HT. I have 2 Pb10 identical. Adding the Valor gives me alot more spl collated than running the 2. I've checked it with downloaded test tone on a cd like I said previously. Playing the single Valor which I do for music is nice doesn't need to go as loud. But for HT it good but keeping my Pb10 and letting them run makes the spl loud like I like. probably a little hot but that what I like more over head. The lower frequency is similar. Yes maybe without eq there maybe some loss in the upper region but I can't tell. probably with eq I can make it sound better . All 3 identical sub would sound better if the were Valors. I doubt 3 Pb10 would sound as good. But for Ht I maybe losing some of the Valor capabilities? But playing it by itself isn't as good. I only can calibrate with a spl meter and test tones like I said before. I'm just posting if you have 2 different subs that are similar all you can do is try. Sure the same is probably better but this post make it seem like it would never work. When I buy a lap top or some sort of eq and I can graph then I can see. But many ppl do it show graphs and have good results. Unless you have killer hearing and can tell every sound like some ppl who say they do. Most ppl I know can't tell the difference with there ears. So imo that's what counts. Especially when I use the test tone and they measure similar. But they are collated both subs are good @20hz. Maybe losing in the upper frequency in the Valor but I can't tell. A single Valor doesn't give enough spl for me.2 Pb10 doesn't give enough spl 3 subs do. Not the spl but I don't want them to bottom out or hear the ports so I can run the a little hot 3-4 db with low volume. Pretty easy. The best thing would have been buy a big killer sub but I have space issues and the Valor /Pb10 is as wide as I can go. Until I diy some 18"

I'm not alluding to your particular situation, but what would be the point of someone adding a dissimilar sub that could go 5Hz lower than what they currently owned if those extra 5Hz were never properly utilized and were always being produced at a lower output level than they should be relative to what their level would be were the more capable subwoofer used alone? There wouldn't be. It'd be much better to simply use the more capable subwoofer, alone, and hear those extra 5Hz correctly, at the proper output level.

Just because you have 2 subs on hand doesn't mean that you should use them. In almost all cases the extra output that a lesser sub would provide can easily be achieved by simply increasing the output of the more capable sub, used alone, by 3 to 6 dB. This, very obviously, would also raise the volume of that extra 5Hz on the bottom end by 3 to 6dB relative to the level it would have been were both subs used together. That extra 5Hz was one of the main reasons a more capable sub was purchased in the first place. Why pay for it and then, not use it? One single, more capable sub is better than one more capable sub paired with a lesser sub. It's a no-brainer.

Unless you have EQ (or are very, very lucky), there is no way to adjust both subs' levels so that your response is flat beyond the low-end capability of the lesser sub and on down through to the low-end capability of the more capable sub. There just isn't. It's impossible. You can't break the laws of physics.

Unless you have EQ (or are very, very lucky), there is no way to adjust both subs' levels so that your response is flat beyond the low-end capability of the lesser sub and on down through to the low-end capability of the more capable sub. There just isn't. It's impossible. You can't break the laws of physics.

Can't break any laws sure. But with 2 Pb10 they bottom out / port chuff in movies with alot of bass. The single Valor runs out of gas. All three gives me the bass I want.Calibrated a little hot.2-3db. Increasing a sub by 6db how do you do that? When I went from one Pb10 then added another collated I gained 6db. So how do you increase one sub to output 6db more?Unless you have an eq that can do this? Both subs have similar frequency in the low range. I dunno why it's so hard to feel it's not possible to mix subs collated. Like I said if it didn't sound better I wouldn't do it. Sure a Ultra Pb13 one of those probably be better than my 3 subs. But it wouldn't fit in my space.

Not to derail the thread, but since it's certainly related AND in you I have someone well versed, apparently, in the trade offs of this scenario, I'd appreciate your opinion on something.

I've been contemplating mixing subs, as I currently have an older PB10-ISD and will be purchasing a Knight or MFW-15 in the next couple weeks. I know this a loaded question that would probably require measurements that I don't have, so forgive me.

Would losing the extra extension of the new sub be an acceptable trade off given the leveling of freq. response? Assuming no more tweaking than running MCACC and setting levels with an SPL meter?