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PAL Question?

post #1 of 10
9/19/08 at 8:48pm
Thread Starter 
I'm curious about any issues regarding playing PAL disks on a primarily NTSC system. I recently took a chance on PAL versions of African Queen and Crimson Pirate since they are unavailble in region 1. My Denon 2900 DVD player states it can output PAL (but is not region free) and my Sharp 10K projector can output PAL but for some reason only through the S-Video cable.

As an experiment I bought the region 2 disks and burned them to DVD-R's to remove the region protection and then played them through the Denon 2900 to the Sharp 10K projector through the S-Video. The quality was not as good as I expected. Crimson Pirate was definitely worse then a now OOP NTSC version I once saw was. The main issue (i'm not sure the official term) was a shimmering effect at times where it plainly looked like lines of resolution were removed and the image spliced back together giving a stepped look. I don't know if this is considered "tearing" that I have heard can happen.

I expected with the increased resolution (576) being upconverted to 720 it would be better then 480 upconverted to 720. But it was almost like the 576 was first downconverted to 480 before being upconverted to 720.

My thoughts were that maybe the Denon is not good at PAL or maybe going through S-Video was the problem. Recently, I rented the first disk of "Wanted: Dead or Alive" season 1. I read that these were converted to NTSC from a PAL copy. While not bad quality I did see very similar effects that were distracting at times. Especially, along the brim of a hat or when looking at a person's eyes. This disks was reported to suffer from PAL speed up which didn't adversely affect my expereince.

If I decide to continue with PAL I will probably get something like the Oppo 983 or hold out for the Oppo 83 BR player, but first I want to make sure about the quality I can expect.

For those who watch PAL disks in region 1:

- Is this common behavior you must learn to accept or is this about my dvd player and projector not being able to handle PAL very well?

- Would an Oppo 983 converting to an NTSC signal then scaled and sent to my projector through a digital connect clean this up?

- If it is my hardware, was the issues I saw with "Wanted: Dead or Alive" just the result of an subpar conversion?

Sorry for the long explanation but I would value hearing from anyone experienced about these issues.
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post #2 of 10
9/20/08 at 5:14am
ok, I do not have total extensive knowledge on the issue, but I think I can answer a few questions.

S video is limited to 640 by 480 resolution (I believe). In other words, it sucks. This could be part of the problem, and indeed, might be the ONLY reason you are having problems.

Further, Pal is encoded at 25 frames per second, as opposed to ntsc 24 frames a second. 25 frames a second onto 60 hz panels is very ugly, as the frame rate conversion is no where near an easy ratio. (24 frames only needs a 3/2 pulldown, which, while still not totally smooth, at least gives consistent unevenness.)

On top of all those issues, many Pal dvds have a totally different encode, which could either make the movie look better, or worse. I have seen situations where the mastering for pal is almost unwatchable, compared to the decent ntsc version.
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post #3 of 10
9/20/08 at 5:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sound dropouts View Post

On top of all those issues, many Pal dvds have a totally different encode, which could either make the movie look better, or worse. I have seen situations where the mastering for pal is almost unwatchable, compared to the decent ntsc version.

In many instances the NTSC edition gets edge enhanced as the line resolution is lower while the PAL edition gets no filtering applied....Check out The Lord Of The Rings trilogy as just one example of thousands.

In the early days PAL wasn't always that good but for the last six years or more i believe PAL has been as good and sometimes better when the transfer was done correctly. The only problem really is that speedup by 4% of a film's soundtrack.

To the original poster i would say grab yourself a Blu Ray player and enjoy those titles with no region coding from Europe and the world - Note some studio's still region code but Warner's, Universal, Paramount and generally Sony if it's a catalogue release do not region code and no worrying about PAL/NTSC ever again.

The titles you want will eventually find their way onto Blu Ray too.

I would imagine most modern projectors can handle 50hz PAL or 60hz NTSC and should have HDMI for Blu Ray if you decide to get into that.
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post #4 of 10
9/20/08 at 5:54am
Important to distinguish between players that play and output PAL from those which play PAL but output NTSC. And yes, your monitor is scaling the image to 720 regardless. No question that the Svideo connect is part of the problem, but depending on what is being output by the player the real problem could be at either end. There are more players and monitors that have crappy de-interlacing than those that don't.

What you describe sounds like de-interlacing errors, which is common. The Oppo 983 is the absolute champion at de-interlacing and converting PAL to NTSC. It can also output PAL as PAL if you prefer. There's every reason to think the new Oppo BDP-83 will have similar talents. The 983 can also be made region free. I use mine for playing R-2 PAL discs and the results are excellent.
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post #5 of 10
9/20/08 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

What you describe sounds like de-interlacing errors, which is common. The Oppo 983 is the absolute champion at de-interlacing and converting PAL to NTSC. It can also output PAL as PAL if you prefer. There's every reason to think the new Oppo BDP-83 will have similar talents. The 983 can also be made region free. I use mine for playing R-2 PAL discs and the results are excellent.

I will second that. I'm getting excellent results on PAL discs with the Oppo players. I use a PAL signal, but PAL->NTSC conversion also works well.

Of the current Oppo players, the 981 and 983 are best at PAL. The 980 is better than the 970 it replaced, but not as good as the others.

-Bill
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post #6 of 10
9/20/08 at 6:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Of the current Oppo players, the 981 and 983 are best at PAL. The 980 is better than the 970 it replaced, but not as good as the others.

I should amend that by saying that if you want 576i over HDMI, the 980 is Oppo for you. The superior deinterlacing of the other machines is irrelevant in that case. And the 981 and 983 do not have 480i/576i over HDMI.

-Bill
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post #7 of 10
9/20/08 at 8:10am
Quote:


In many instances the NTSC edition gets edge enhanced as the line resolution is lower while the PAL edition gets no filtering applied....Check out The Lord Of The Rings trilogy as just one example of thousands.

In the early days PAL wasn't always that good but for the last six years or more i believe PAL has been as good and sometimes better when the transfer was done correctly. The only problem really is that speedup by 4% of a film's soundtrack.

This is true, and I was not saying that Pal usually looks worse. But I have seen occasions when pal DOES look worse, and this could be part of the op's problem.
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post #8 of 10
9/20/08 at 9:11am
Thread Starter 
"African Queen" is obviously and older movie, but one reason I think it has been hard to get in NTSC is that I believe it was produced in England so you would think it would get an adequate transfer, but who knows for sure.

My setup is obviously not optimal for PAL in that even if my DVD player can output PAL well the projector doesn't seem to have the best inputs for it. My projector can accept an interlaced signal so maybe I should try to see if i can get the Denon to output that way. Maybe the projector can deinterlace better.

What is tearing by the way? I saw that mentioned on the Oppo site. Is that what I am trying to explain?

If I get the Oppo I will have to have the signal converted to NTSC so I can use my DVI connection in the projector. Anyone know the conversion process for the Oppo 983 (576i -> 576p -> 720p, or 576i -> 480i -> 480p -> 720p)?

Knowing that people get players that can handle PAL in the US I was figuring that what I was seeing couldn't be acceptable to everyone. It is just trying to find the weak link in my setup. What threw me last night was watching "Wanted: Dead or Alive" that I read was converted from a French PAL version to NTSC. Speed up was not an issue for me but I have to wonder if this is typical of a conversion or just a questionable job. It was watchable but the shimmering was obvious at times on a 92" display.

I also tried using a demo program off the web to convert PAL to NTSC and the results weren't any better except I could use my normal component connection vs. the s-video.

I won't replace my projector for quite a few more years but I am considering the Oppo 83 BR when it comes out too. If it can do all that the 983 can plus BR that would be great. In my case I need the region free, PAL to NTSC, upconversion, internal HD audio decoding, and all the video controls (since my projector lacks them on the DVI input).

Thanks for the input.
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post #9 of 10
9/20/08 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithb View Post

What is tearing by the way? I saw that mentioned on the Oppo site. Is that what I am trying to explain?

This is a de-interlacing issue.

Quote:


If I get the Oppo I will have to have the signal converted to NTSC so I can use my DVI connection in the projector. Anyone know the conversion process for the Oppo 983 (576i -> 576p -> 720p, or 576i -> 480i -> 480p -> 720p)?

This info is available at oppodigital.com Depending on the player, you will have all the above options. In your case I would expect that outputting at 720p over HDMI would be optimal.



It's not yet known whether the Oppo BD player will support all the same things for PAL, or whether it can be made region free for DVD's.
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post #10 of 10
9/23/08 at 2:40pm
As long as the DVD player is "region-free" it will send the PAL signal to the TV and if the TV is an LCD the picture should display. For economies of scale LCD's are multi-system and can display ATSC, NTSC and PAL.

I normally play PAL DVD's with a region-free Panasonic RP82 through component output to a 37" Vizio. (The Panasonic player does not include a video converter.) I tested my Westinghouse and Konka LCD's and they both displayed PAL through component.

Digital is digital and a region-free player will send the signal to the TV whether it is NTSC or PAL. The TV needs to be multi-system or the player must include a video converter.
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