or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Input Lag of various projectors
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Input Lag of various projectors - Page 6

post #151 of 424
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post

Yes, you are correct. I have edited the numbers. I am pretty sensitive when it comes to input lag so the projector with the lowest numbers will be the one I purchase.

You won't be the only one eagerly hoping for good numbers on the Z3000, then.
post #152 of 424
Just to keep the info consistent between threads:

The Sanyo Z3000 uses a new Pixelworks DNX chip which is untested by us here. There's no guarantee that it's fast at all. From my research (not claiming gospel truth here) the chip they're using is the PW9800 and before they used the PW390 (which HAS been tested and is really fast).

So until we get some hard evidence by testing the Z3000, we still don't know if there's a fast projector out there for us gamers...

We DO know that the new Epson 6100 uses the TW390 chip, but it's not a "higher end" LCD projector and not appealing to some.
post #153 of 424
And to further make things confusing the Epson 6500 uses the PW390/Reon combo..... meaning that the Epson 6500 could be faster than the Sanyo Z3000?????
post #154 of 424
quick take on pany AE-3000. Got my unit 4days ago and works great for fps and rockbank(on xbox).
With the following settings
1) Frame Creation = Off
2) Fast Processing = On

I dont see any visible lag on COD4 online and panning a target to snipe works as normal, am prestige level10 so I play this game ALOT.
COD5 was fine as well, with Frame creation at Mode 1 you can see ghosting on the target cursor but was still playable with Fast Processing = Off, even.

rockband was playable, had a 3hour session straight. with Frame creation at Mode 1 or 2 you will see 'jerks' every once and then. Turn off Frame Creation and Fast processing and its ready to go.
post #155 of 424
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueweed View Post

quick take on pany AE-3000. Got my unit 4days ago and works great for fps and rockbank(on xbox).
With the following settings
1) Frame Creation = Off
2) Fast Processing = On

I dont see any visible lag on COD4 online and panning a target to snipe works as normal, am prestige level10 so I play this game ALOT.
COD5 was fine as well, with Frame creation at Mode 1 you can see ghosting on the target cursor but was still playable with Fast Processing = Off, even.

rockband was playable, had a 3hour session straight. with Frame creation at Mode 1 or 2 you will see 'jerks' every once and then. Turn off Frame Creation and Fast processing and its ready to go.

Assuming you put the AE3000 in fast frame response mode, turning on frame creation makes no difference, as the AE3000 doesn't actually turn it on. It's "idiot-proof" in that the fast frame response mode overrides any other settings that increase image lag.

I'd like to see this tested with some high speed shots against another projector and/or CRT with an image lag test running, but based on how slow the AE2000 and AX200U were without game mode, and how average the AX200U was with game mode on, I expect the AE3000 to be absolutely playable with game mode on, but not necessarily the ideal gaming projector. (It'll be interesting to see how the Z3000 and 6100 both preform if someone can test them.)

I've played some COD:WaW with frame creation on, and I think "playable" is subjective. You can play FPS on very, very old LCDs, but I wouldn't call them playable. I played half a level with with frame creation on, and did not like it. If you had fast frame response mode on when you played, your frame creation mode settings would have been ignored, but even with frame creation off, I would think some here would notice the lag on an AE3000 if you're not in fast frame response mode ("game mode").
post #156 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Assuming you put the AE3000 in fast frame response mode, turning on frame creation makes no difference, as the AE3000 doesn't actually turn it on. It's "idiot-proof" in that the fast frame response mode overrides any other settings that increase image lag.

I'd like to see this tested with some high speed shots against another projector and/or CRT with an image lag test running, but based on how slow the AE2000 and AX200U were without game mode, and how average the AX200U was with game mode on, I expect the AE3000 to be absolutely playable with game mode on, but not necessarily the ideal gaming projector. (It'll be interesting to see how the Z3000 and 6100 both preform if someone can test them.)

I've played some COD:WaW with frame creation on, and I think "playable" is subjective. You can play FPS on very, very old LCDs, but I wouldn't call them playable. I played half a level with with frame creation on, and did not like it. If you had fast frame response mode on when you played, your frame creation mode settings would have been ignored, but even with frame creation off, I would think some here would notice the lag on an AE3000 if you're not in fast frame response mode ("game mode").

can't argue regarding the subjectiveness of playability there but I think panning with a sniper rifle and trying to hit a moving target should be a nice test itself for competitive fps gamers.
post #157 of 424
Found this post in the PT-AE3000 Owner's Thread, for what it's worth. Not sure how much I do/don't trust Rock Band 2's calibration tools, but it's the only sort of measurement I've seen of the AE-3000u at all so far.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post14991029

Quote:
Originally Posted by sveetsnelda View Post

I happen to have a microphone and photodiode to do this...

Rock Band 2 has a feature that lets you calibrate audio and video lag by using the RB2 guitar. The guitar has a microphone and photodiode built into it. I connected HDMI directly from my Xbox360 to the AE3000U, and here is what I got:

Normal Frame Response, no Frame Creation - 30ms
Normal Frame Response, Frame Creation Mode 1 - 81ms
Normal Frame Response, Frame Creation Mode 2 - 130ms
Fast Frame Response, Frame Creation Mode 2 - 130ms

I'm not sure which reviewer found that FFR turned off frame creation when enabled, but that is obviously not the case.
Also, I ended up with the same measurement between normal frame response and fast frame response (with frame creation off). This is a bit confusing... Maybe fast frame response doesn't work with digital sources? I ran the test multiple times and came up with 30 or 31ms every time.
post #158 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

Found this post in the PT-AE3000 Owner's Thread, for what it's worth. Not sure how much I do/don't trust Rock Band 2's calibration tools, but it's the only sort of measurement I've seen of the AE-3000u at all so far.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post14991029

Too bad he excludes the only important test

Fast frame Response, no Frame Creation.
post #159 of 424
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

Too bad he excludes the only important test

Fast frame Response, no Frame Creation.

Looks like he did:

I ended up with the same measurement between normal frame response and fast frame response (with frame creation off). This is a bit confusing... Maybe fast frame response doesn't work with digital sources? I ran the test multiple times and came up with 30 or 31ms every time.
post #160 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Looks like he did:

I ended up with the same measurement between normal frame response and fast frame response (with frame creation off). This is a bit confusing... Maybe fast frame response doesn't work with digital sources? I ran the test multiple times and came up with 30 or 31ms every time.


Well....

I suppose I need more sleep.
post #161 of 424
peeter01, do you have RB2? Do you guys think a lag comparison using RB2 would tell anything useful about different projectors?
post #162 of 424
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Mapstone View Post

peeter01, do you have RB2? Do you guys think a lag comparison using RB2 would tell anything useful about different projectors?

No RB2.

As for comparisons, if the set ups were identical it could be useful. However, everyone's audio set up is different, for example, my audio receiver defaults to an automatic 20ms audio delay unless otherwise specified. Different people's audio setups and video connections (component, S-video, composite, HDMI, VGA, etc.) are going to skew numbers.

Multiple projectors testing under the same settings, I still think photos or high speed video recording of multiple devices running concurrently is a better test...especially if you can use identical setups with different projectors.

(That said, I'd rather hear the RB2 results than nothing at all.)
post #163 of 424
These RB/GH tests are nearly worthless. Too many factors involved. Speaking of worthless tests...

My new quick test (totally non-empirical) is the Mega Man 9 demo on my PS3. I'm testing the jumping response speed. I recently tried it on a Sanyo Z3 projector, at 480p, 720p, and 1080i (PJ is 720 native) via HDMI.
The 720p lag is just awesome, as good as it could possibly be. It is 100% fantastic, it feels like an NES on a 1989 CRT, and that's including some magical bluetooth transmitter delay for the controller. I do feel lag on 1080i (not that I'd ever use that) and that's a Pixelworks DNX projector. It feels the same as my Bravia LCD without game mode on (but no 120hz stuff turned on). It's good but I FEEL SOMETHING NOT RIGHT. IMO, if that's something like what the Reon PJs feel like, it's a deal breaker to me. Once again, this is purely anecdotal and I don't take this as factual information.

Having felt the Z3 at native res, it pains me to go slower than that. It's so fantastic (absurdly so) that it's hard to accept anything else.
post #164 of 424
Quote:
Originally posted by tommyv2
My new quick test (totally non-empirical) is the Mega Man 9 demo on my PS3. I'm testing the jumping response speed. I recently tried it on a Sanyo Z3 projector, at 480p, 720p, and 1080i (PJ is 720 native) via HDMI.

What is it about Mega Man 9, that makes it more useful than some FPS like COD? Please elaborate on what you mean by jumping response speed? Are you just simply pressing the jump button and paying attention to when you jump? It sounds like you have a lot of experience with games that are lag sensitive, if so, I wish you had access to other projector like the Sony HW10 and the Epson 6500 and 6100. It sounds like your opinion might be very helpful.
post #165 of 424
3D games are nearly worthless because of the way your eyes respond to 3 different vectors. 2D games only have a X and Y axis, so their movement is more obvious. 3D FPS games, well, have animations and other movement is not the best way to measure lag by feel. Mega Man 9 has a gun, too, but I don't even use that because the gun response is never as obvious as a jump. The time in length you hold the button determines the height of the jump, and that's such a good indicator of lag (of button release after the initial press). You CANNOT fake or modify that type of movement. You're gonna know if it's correct or not. It's very obvious. If you THINK it's not perfect, it's not perfect. The millisecond you press that jump button, Mega Man is in the air. If he's not, there's your answer. It is instant in a way a 3D game could never be. 3D games have frame rates and V-sync buffers and all of that (that affect perception of movement), where 2D games are purely real-time rasterized and are moving pixels on the screen. That's why the hardcore gamers who complain about lag always reference 2D fighting games and platformers. Those are the best ways to check.

I've been playing 2D games since 1987 and am absurdly sensitive to any forms of lag. It took me nearly a year of research (without buying anything) to find my Denon receiver that passes HDMI unmolested as to not tamper with my video signal to introduce lag.

Anyway, I hope my findings are useful to someone. Lag facts and screencaps are best, but I want to make sure others are realistic in their findings. I hate when someone says "It's pretty good" or "acceptable" because that's subjective. I'm doing that too, in a way, but when I'm spending thousands of dollars on equipment that will last for years, I want Mega Man to jump when I press that button. Period.

(also bonus fact: Mega Man 9 renders in every resolution you set your PS3 to. That lets you test every res you want, where some games just run at 720p when your system is set to 1080p or whatever. It helps if you're trying to find a specific thing like I was)
post #166 of 424
Cool! Downloading Mega Man 9 now to see how it works on my current projector.
post #167 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

I've been playing 2D games since 1987 and am absurdly sensitive to any forms of lag. It took me nearly a year of research (without buying anything) to find my Denon receiver that passes HDMI unmolested as to not tamper with my video signal to introduce lag.

Do you have the model number and settings for that Denon?
post #168 of 424
It's any Denon HDMI model number under the 3000 series. So, any 28xx or any big box store model (789, 889, etc). [big box stores don't have the 4-digit Denon models, even if some models are 'identical' to a corresponding 3 digit model] Example a AVR-3808 is a model you'd want to avoid, as is a 5808. 2809 and lower is good. So is a 789, etc.

From the 3000 series and up, the Denons have a menu GUI that overlays on top of HDMI sources, which means the signal is being processed. That's a no-no. This idea extends to other brands, so look for any receiver that can't overlay info on top of HDMI (volume control display, settings, etc) input. Some see this as a 'defect' I say it's the best thing ever! Usually higher-end models of a brand feature HDMI overlay, and you'd need to avoid those models. Some receivers even have Reon VX or Realta processors, which are perfect for those looking to double their lag

I personally have a Denon AVR-2809CI. It is 100% lag free in every way. I joined AVS only to find my magic equipment, and so far so good

There are no settings to adjust for HDMI. For analog sources, set the "Upscale" option to OFF, which is the default. [it can convert analog to HDMI as a feature]
post #169 of 424
Tommyv2, do you know anything about the Yamaha RX-V661? Crossing my fingers... as I already own it.
post #170 of 424
I remember looking at that amp as a choice many moons ago. If there's no volume display or GUI on the screen over HDMI, I think you're OK.

The Denons, for example, go to a black screen with text graphics when you bring up the GUI menu. At that point they're let the video signal go and take over the feed. If that's what your Yamaha does, you're OK. Haven't you tested it for fun by now?
post #171 of 424
My current projector doesn't have HDMI input so I can't test it, but I'll take a look at the manual. Thx
post #172 of 424
If it doesn't have HDMI, then you CERTAINLY have no lag! Haha. Never mind, then. You're in good shape!

The other end of the spectrum is some amps have such slow AUDIO processing that if you turn on Prologic IIx or anything like that, it adds so much audio delay that your picture can't possibly be slowed down to match. (ex: Onkyo 905) I've witnessed it first hand and it's awful. These CE companies need to really test some of this stuff before passing it off to consumers. That Onkyo was the flagship model then, what a tragic thing!

My Denon even has a great feature (optional, of course) that if you turn off your receiver, it still passes the HDMI forward, so you can watch things on your TV without having the receiver on - perfect for wives that don't want to turn on a receiver, 18 speakers and 3 subwoofers to watch their DVD box sets

Anyone out there reading this thread got a Sanyo Z3000 yet? Lag test that thing, we're all waiting like crazy!
post #173 of 424
So it seems that the only projectors using the PW390 chipset this year are the Epson 6100 and Sanyo Z700. I guess that makes them the only choices for a super-sensitive gamer going the 1080p route? I'm guessing that by next year there will be none. I am KICKING myself for not getting an Epson 1080UB when I had a chance. That was pretty stupid of me.

ResOGlas, we're still waiting for Z3000 screenshots
post #174 of 424
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

So it seems that the only projectors using the PW390 chipset this year are the Epson 6100 and Sanyo Z700. I guess that makes them the only choices for a super-sensitive gamer going the 1080p route? I'm guessing that by next year there will be none. I am KICKING myself for not getting an Epson 1080UB when I had a chance. That was pretty stupid of me.

ResOGlas, we're still waiting for Z3000 screenshots

Hm. On one hand, I'm happy to hear that the lag I'm seeing with the TW4000 is probably pretty close to as good as it's going to be for the inorganic 1080p LCD projectors this year, but on the other hand, I wish the manufacturers were paying more attention to us gamers...
post #175 of 424
Is there any chance the Sony HW10 has less lag than the current inorganic LCD? Sure it doesn't support 120hz, but it is comparable in every other aspect including black level. It is to bad that the Epson 6100, with the PW390, has the organic panels. I might be tempted to sacrifice black level, but I put a lot of hours on a projector, so I am worried about the panels degrading.
post #176 of 424
Using a laptop is the worst way to do this test. You need to use a CRT monitor. LCD screens have a ton of lag because it takes the screen crystals time to respond, and this can change depending on temperature and wether or not a particular crystal has been recently turned on.

The reaction time of phosphorous on a CRT is dramatically faster.
post #177 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudSMoke View Post

Using a laptop is the worst way to do this test. You need to use a CRT monitor. LCD screens have a ton of lag because it takes the screen crystals time to respond, and this can change depending on temperature and wether or not a particular crystal has been recently turned on.

The reaction time of phosphorous on a CRT is dramatically faster.

I think calling it "the worst way to do it" is hyperbole. It may not be the best way, but depending on the particular laptop model, it may not be that bad. For example, when I ran the stopwatch on my Thinkpad while simultaneously outputting to a CRT, the lag was either 0 or 16 ms.
post #178 of 424
Based on Art's review, it looks like the Epson 6100 is excellent. It's also looking like the best choice this year for gaming!

One thing scares me - on one of Art's photos, it shows a Reon HQV logo on the projector. I think he re-used a picture from his Epson 6500 review... http://www.projectorreviews.com/imag...00UB_power.jpg and yes, the file name of the picture confirms it!

Anyone used a 6100 yet?
post #179 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Based on Art's review, it looks like the Epson 6100 is excellent. It's also looking like the best choice this year for gaming!

One thing scares me - on one of Art's photos, it shows a Reon HQV logo on the projector. I think he re-used a picture from his Epson 6500 review... http://www.projectorreviews.com/imag...00UB_power.jpg and yes, the file name of the picture confirms it!

Anyone used a 6100 yet?

Why do you say the 6100 will be the best choice for gaming? Did Art perform any lag measurements?
post #180 of 424
The Epson 6100 and Sanyo Z700 are the only new projectors that use the Pixelworks PW390 chips. Those are the good ones! The same ones as all of last year's fast projectors (Epson 1080s, all Sanyos, etc)

The higher-end projectors now use Reon VX or the new Pixelworks chips, and they aren't as fast.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Input Lag of various projectors