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Input Lag of various projectors - Page 4

post #91 of 424
That's a very interesting point. Only way to prove that consistently is to take an LCD model line and compare the sizes. More useful when you have a line like the Sharp D64U series, which are identical besides panel size, from 32" to 65".

I think with size there is an actual mechanical delay to the movement of the panel TFTs, but I'd like to see someone measure that!
post #92 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

I don't believe refresh rate has anything to do with it, or even panel speed. I think all panels are faster than their processor. What's 85hz or 120hz do the output from your console is still 60hz? The Sega Game Gear, like 18 years ago, had an LCD screen that was instant, as did the NEC TurboXpress system years before that. LCD panels are fast enough for anything. Their colour changing speed is a different story, but I don't really care what colour Mario is, I just want him to jump on time!

This is all 100% video processor dependent. LCD monitors got slower before they got faster a few years ago. I've used some late 90s LCDs and they were instant, my 2007 Dell - garbage. Panels have only gotten better since then, processors have only gotten more to do, hence slower.


I agree. Why else would you say that an Onkyo A/V receiver with the Reon adds major input lag, but a similar Onkyo without the Reon doesn't?
post #93 of 424
From the AE3000 owners thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamis View Post

I had to do quite a bit of tweaking to get rockband2 to play smooth and in sync.


Not good news. Unlike Rock Band, 99.99% of games don't let you make adjustments for input lag.
post #94 of 424
In the htforum.nl Epson TW5000 (6500UB in the US) preview, it says the TW5000 has both the HQV Reon VX and a Pixel Works on board.

I wounder how that's going to work?
Makes me wounder if there is a gaming mode in the Epson that would just use the Pixel works chip.

http://translate.google.com/translat...-8&sl=nl&tl=en
post #95 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip3kx07 View Post

In the htforum.nl Epson TW5000 (6500UB in the US) preview, it says the TW5000 has both the HQV Reon VX and a Pixel Works on board.

I wounder how that's going to work?
Makes me wounder if there is a gaming mode in the Epson that would just use the Pixel works chip.

http://translate.google.com/translat...-8&sl=nl&tl=en

Seems quite likely that would be the case. There can be no true game mode going through the Reon, if previous Reon equipped devices I've used are anything to go by.
post #96 of 424
i bought epson TW680 (HC720) and it has superb inputlag i can even play with mouse ! instead of almost every lcd tv
post #97 of 424
I'm not familiar with how guitar hero or rockband compensates for input lag, but from reading some posts, it seems as these games would be an easy way to measure input lag on projectors? Maybe I'll go find a used copy.
post #98 of 424
The most accurate way is to connect the projector to a PC, enable simultaneous output to a CRT monitor (0 input lag) display an accurate timer at the top and bottom of the screen on both and use a digital camera with adjustable shutter speed to take pictures. The best pictures are used, the difference between the timer reading on the CRT and the 2nd display is the input lag. Statistical data is gathered regarding the min, max and average input lag. The avg and max are what you want to consider.

Not easy, but this is considered conclusive measurement and is used by professional monitor review sites to measure input lag. Here is a thread on HardForum dedicated to measurement with pictures, if you find it hard to visualize (there are several on that forum.)

By comparison, Rock Band will give you an approximate, non-objective measure something along the lines of OK, not bad, terrible etc. since it relies on your audio-visual judgement, which may be all you want though.
post #99 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

Not good news. Unlike Rock Band, 99.99% of games don't let you make adjustments for input lag.

Not necessarily bad news. From the post, it seemed like jamis didn't realize that you shouldn't be playing games with frame creation turned off and frame processing on fast mode.
post #100 of 424
I'm assuming the AE3000 will be identical in performance to the AX200 when in game mode, so, it should be pretty good.
post #101 of 424
I am thinking about trying to find the equipment to do this test properly. I have a CRT computer monitor, I just need a computer that outputs componant and HDMI video, correct? I have an older (8 years) desk top computer, but I doubt it has the memory to run a HDMI/componant video card, correct? I have a 2 year old lap top, but it only has s-video output. So it looks like I might need to invest in a new computer. I do not need anything fancy, just something that can output HDMI and Componant video to my projector? Any suggestions?
post #102 of 424
Most people are testing their display for the worst-case scenario - composite or S-video. That way you get deinterlacing and upscaling in the mix. Your current laptop will do that. From mine I ran VGA-out to a CRT monitor, and the S-video to my display.

Testing HDMI native res lag is much more involved, and may cost you buying new equipment, as you've discovered.
post #103 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Mapstone View Post

I am thinking about trying to find the equipment to do this test properly. I have a CRT computer monitor, I just need a computer that outputs componant and HDMI video, correct? I have an older (8 years) desk top computer, but I doubt it has the memory to run a HDMI/componant video card, correct? I have a 2 year old lap top, but it only has s-video output. So it looks like I might need to invest in a new computer. I do not need anything fancy, just something that can output HDMI and Componant video to my projector? Any suggestions?

Yes, your PC is likely too old at 8 years old to accomodate a modern video card or drive 2x1080p outputs. You could find an old PCI video card such as this, but then you might have issues installing drivers unless you have at least Windows XP.

So if you're looking at a new PC, most modern video cards have dual output and can output component and HDMI with cables or adapters. My video card came with 2xDVI output and a component output dongle (no HDMI dongle but I bought a DVI to HDMI cable from monoprice and it was pretty cheap). Just about any computer with a video card would do, if you plan to do no gaming, then a computer with an ATI 4xxx series (or better) or an NVIDIA 9xxx or GTS 1xx series with 2 DVI outputs will do. Some video cards come with bundled Component output dongles.
post #104 of 424
Well, I've officially been screwed over! I finally ordered an Epson 1080UB, and guess what? It's gone, and you can't get it anymore.

Here's hoping the 6500UB lets you disable that Reon chip... *screams* Will my pain ever end? Just when I've found a good one...hehe.
post #105 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Well, I've officially been screwed over! I finally ordered an Epson 1080UB, and guess what? It's gone, and you can't get it anymore.

Here's hoping the 6500UB lets you disable that Reon chip... *screams* Will my pain ever end? Just when I've found a good one...hehe.

Ouch, you can't find the 1080UB anywhere? Well, there's always the Sanyo Z3000 if the Epson 6500UB doesn't hold up.
post #106 of 424
So whatever happened about the "Peeter's Wife's Grandmother meeting his son" trip? Everyone knows that the most important thing about visiting relatives in Japan is taking the time to go out of your way to test out the input lag of projectors in stores that don't allow photography, for the benefit strangers on the internet.
post #107 of 424
I just read the owner's manual of the Epson 6500UB and there's no mention of a game mode. *sigh*

http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/plhc61/plhc61ug.pdf

However, the manual references the Pixelworks DNX and the Reon, so there's no way to tell until someone tests this thing!
post #108 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Well, I've officially been screwed over! I finally ordered an Epson 1080UB, and guess what? It's gone, and you can't get it anymore.

Here's hoping the 6500UB lets you disable that Reon chip... *screams* Will my pain ever end? Just when I've found a good one...hehe.

I'm in the same boat tommy. I had orders from 3 different suppliers who all failed to get the 1080UB in for me.
post #109 of 424
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

So whatever happened about the "Peeter's Wife's Grandmother meeting his son" trip? Everyone knows that the most important thing about visiting relatives in Japan is taking the time to go out of your way to test out the input lag of projectors in stores that don't allow photography, for the benefit strangers on the internet.

Res,

Thanks for the cute post. Ken's living Japanese great-grandmother lives out near Mt. Fuji. Great produce and scenery, but not so many cutting edge electronics stores.

Now that we're back home, within reach of several Yodobashis, I was going to go to Yodobashi last weekend, but came down with a fever. I actually have work this weekend, so this weekend is probably not possible, but I plan on calling and asking when the TW4000 is going to be on display. If they will have the TW4000 on display, I'll try to find time to go, but otherwise, this weekend is pretty full, so photos will likely have to wait.

(I will update with when/if the Yodobashi staff have any idea of when they'll have a TW4000 on display)
post #110 of 424
Thread Starter 
TW4000 update:

Spoke with Yodobashi. If I can believe the guy I spoke with, it looks like the date is not decided yet, but that Yodobashi should have a confirmed date on receiving TW4000s around the 15th.

This probably doesn't mean receiving them around the 15th, but that doesn't mean I can't hope. I'll follow up with them again in a few days. Hopefully then they can tell me if they'll have a TW4000 on display before/when they go on sale.

(If no one else does it before me, I really want to test the image lag of this projector before plunking down money for one.)
post #111 of 424
This thread is very interesting but does not really provide any useful info.

With my benq w5000 all I know is when I press fire in call of duty, it fires right away.

Now if theres a millisecond difference, its not enough for me to notice. I even played around with the fire button, pressing it and it always fired right away.
post #112 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

This thread is very interesting but does not really provide any useful info.

With my benq w5000 all I know is when I press fire in call of duty, it fires right away.

Now if theres a millisecond difference, its not enough for me to notice. I even played around with the fire button, pressing it and it always fired right away.

The Benq w5000 uses the Reon, and the input lag has been reported earlier in this thread at around 80ms at 1024x768@85hz and 50ms at 1920x1080@60.



Whether you find you find this info "useful" or not, those are not fantastic results. If you're not a hardcore gamer you may not notice it as much as many of us do.
post #113 of 424
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

This thread is very interesting but does not really provide any useful info.

With my benq w5000 all I know is when I press fire in call of duty, it fires right away.

Now if theres a millisecond difference, its not enough for me to notice. I even played around with the fire button, pressing it and it always fired right away.

Bad news and good news, Murilo.

The bad news is that, yes, you do have image lag, and if you played a local match against a similarly skilled player on a CRT, you'd be handicapped. (Yes, the 80ms would make a difference)

The good news is that our brains are actually quite good at handling even a large amount of image lag, as long as that lag is consistant. You adapt to your display as time goes on. If you played on a CRT for a while, and then jumped back to your projector, you'd likely feel the difference, especially if you're a twitch gamer.

If you don't notice the lag, don't worry about it, and continue enjoying games on your projector.
post #114 of 424
I run mine at 1080 so I guess im getting 50ms according to his test of lag, still that does not seem that bad, and not enough for me to notice.


My freinds who own crt's come over and play COD and never notice anything, and my one freind who always dominates online in cod, dominated just as easily as he does on his crt tv.

I should mention i game only on 360 and ps3. IM guessing there are other variables with these machines since they have there own internal processing.

The test was for pc gaming?
post #115 of 424
Thread Starter 
Looks like the TW4000 could be 11/20 in Japan.

http://shop.epson.jp/goods/searchUse...searchUseKbn=1

While the TW4000 only has "End of November", for the release date, the Epson store website has both the TW4000 replacement lamp and air filter going on sale on 11/20/08. Possible release date? We'll know in a week.

Either way, if no one tests it before it's out near me, I do want to bring my camera and a laptop (or two) down to test it so I can buy it that day if it's good.
post #116 of 424
I play x-box 360 on a 56" Samsung DLP RPTV. From these forums, I learned that the input lag on my tv using component cables was terrible. But if you used the VGA adapter, the tv did significantly less processing and the input lag was minimized. I tried both, and found a significant improvement using the VGA input. I never researched the input lag over HDMI (and never tried it on my tv) because the 360 didn't have HDMI when I bought mine.

Is there any reason to believe that any of these projectors would have less input lag over VGA than another input? Also, if you are outputting a 1080p signal from your PS3 or 360, might you have less lag since the projector would not have to do any scaling?
post #117 of 424
Again if someone can clarify the tests were on pc and for pc gaming.

PS3 and xbox have there own processing which is sure to change things.
post #118 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

Again if someone can clarify the tests were on pc and for pc gaming.

PS3 and xbox have there own processing which is sure to change things.

We're talking about how long it take for a projector to get the signal from *anything* and then display the image on screen. Input lag affects consoles more so than PCs, because you can't always output at the native resolution of your display. 95%+ of PS3 games only output in 720p, keep that in mind.
post #119 of 424
But there are other variables ontop of that. Scaling from 720p should not take much time at all. Then you would have to compare scaling in the system. Not to mention response time of the wireless controller.
post #120 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

But there are other variables ontop of that. Scaling from 720p should not take much time at all. Then you would have to compare scaling in the system. Not to mention response time of the wireless controller.

Different amounts of scaling is an issue, why do you think your Benq w5000 measured 80ms at 1024x768@85hz and 50ms at 1920x1080@60?

Your projector isn't ideal for gaming, denial simply won't change that. Maybe it is good enough for you, which is fine, but the point of this thread isn't meant for those that have no issues with lag.

I'm not saying that you have a bad projector. Be happy with it. I am saying that as a gamer I wouldn't even dare to consider it myself or recommend it to my other gamer friends, though. Science is a mean bitch.
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