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Guide To Building A Media Storage Server - Page 150

post #4471 of 7742
11/8/09 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotters1 View Post

well, I have two Norco 4020 cases, one with the M/B and the Areca 1680-ix-24 controller and one with the Chenbro-13601 expander (which is not yet 'in action'). I use 11 WD15EADS drives, 5 drives for media storage RAID-5 (streaming music and videos), 5 drives in the second case finally as a backup RAID-5, 1 drive as a hot spare in case something fails. Then I have 16 Samsung 500GB drives which I want to use further on (8 drives each in a RAID-5 array, one online, one for backup in the 2nd case - second case is only on if I want to do a backup, weekly). And I have 3 WD 640GB AAKS drives for media preparation purposes, used as simple drives in the main case.

In the future I want to extend the arrays 2 WD15EADS at a time as soon as the used storage space reaches 80%.

That's more or less the idea...

Thoughts?

Oh, and just as a remark: I switched the RAID driver from STORport to SCSIport... now the speed has increased slightly to 70-90 MB/s

Ok, that's a lot of drives and arrays but ...

Set your stripe size on the areca to 128K.
Then when you format the volumes in windows use 8K clusters for arrays that will be under 32TB and 16K for arrays under 64TB.
Here's a table of NTFS cluster size to max volume size that you might find useful.

p.s. don't use scsiport. storport is the preferred transport.

post the bench when you're ready and we'll go from there.
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post #4472 of 7742
11/9/09 at 11:06am
Question:

is it possible to re-install the storport driver over the scsiport driver without damaging anything on the attached RAIDs?
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post #4473 of 7742
11/9/09 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotters1 View Post

Question:

is it possible to re-install the storport driver over the scsiport driver without damaging anything on the attached RAIDs?

Yes, it's just a device driver and should not affect the volume. As with any other exercise, backup any critical data before making any changes.

In Win device manager locate the Areca controller and select update driver then point to the Win7 storport driver location.

For Win7 x64 latest storport driver is arcs_a64.sys v90723.
You can get it on Areca's ftp site here
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post #4474 of 7742
11/9/09 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgjensen View Post

got a new WD15EADS... does NOT support TLER - get errors trying to read/set TLER.

This bothers me. I heard some similar rumors from users not being able to enable TLER on the latest batch of 1TB black drives as well. I was planning to get 4 of them for a VM array, but we might need to consider other options.

Have you looked into it further to be sure TLER cannot be enabled on your drive ?
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post #4475 of 7742
11/9/09 at 2:37pm
Hi there,

I am using a Qnap 509 right now and as I am running out of space I thought I need something bigger, however I can't justify the cost for a 809 being actually by definition not big enough. I had in the past a linux based software md raid, however I don't necessary want that complexity again. I am thinking either going with unRAID or WHS. I would continue to use the Qnap 509 (RAID5) for all my important data, leaving only media to the new storage box. I was wondering what people would recommend. Right now I am thinking about the following setup, quite identical to what LimeTech is offering:

1x Lian Li PC-A17 as used by Lime Tech $150
3x Supermicro CSE-M35T-1B or Icy Dock MB455SPF-B 5-in-3 drive cages 3x $110
15x Seagate ST31500341AS 1.5TB 7200rpm 32MB NCQ drives 7x $150 (already own 8x of them)
3x Promise TX4 SATA150 PCI HBAs
1x unRAID Server Pro USB Flash $139
? mobo
? memory
? p/s

The drives need to be those Seagates as I already have 8 of them and don't want to mix drives. I am not sure on the motherboard and power supply. I already have 3x Promise TX4 SATA150 PCI adapters (for 3x4 = 12 drives in total), so that the mobo needs to have 4 additional SATA connectors. Any problems with those Promise HBAs? Hopefuly they would work with unRAID OS or WHS? I also don't have a mainboard, would prefer an Intel board or anything with at least one, preferably two gigabit controllers and supporting Wake on LAN.

I actually don't need hot-swapable disks, so any cheaper alernative for 5-in-3 bay mounting hardware with its own 12cm fan is highly appreciated.
Those 5-in-3 bay mounting devices are quite expensive and if buy three of them and a case, cost would be dearer than a Norco 4020 (but probably less noisier and smaller).

Regarding the power supply, any 600W Corsair or Chieftec should do, I think?

I though I could start with a couple of new drives, copying existing data from my current 8 drives and inserting them into the RAID as they become freed up.

Thanks much for all your help and suggestions!
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post #4476 of 7742
11/9/09 at 3:19pm
Folks,

I made a new post (link) with a question about my planned storage build before I saw this thread ... I'm basically curious about FIS-based switching support on the P55. Is anyone using the P55's sata ports with a port multiplier on and external eSata enclosure?
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post #4477 of 7742
11/9/09 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

Hi there,

I am using a Qnap 509 right now and as I am running out of space I thought I need something bigger, however I can't justify the cost for a 809 being actually by definition not big enough. I had in the past a linux based software md raid, however I don't necessary want that complexity again. I am thinking either going with unRAID or WHS. I would continue to use the Qnap 509 (RAID5) for all my important data, leaving only media to the new storage box. I was wondering what people would recommend. Right now I am thinking about the following setup, quite identical to what LimeTech is offering:

1x Lian Li PC-A17 as used by Lime Tech $150
3x Supermicro CSE-M35T-1B or Icy Dock MB455SPF-B 5-in-3 drive cages 3x $110
15x Seagate ST31500341AS 1.5TB 7200rpm 32MB NCQ drives 7x $150 (already own 8x of them)
3x Promise TX4 SATA150 PCI HBAs
1x unRAID Server Pro USB Flash $139
? mobo
? memory
? p/s

The drives need to be those Seagates as I already have 8 of them and don't want to mix drives. I am not sure on the motherboard and power supply. I already have 3x Promise TX4 SATA150 PCI adapters (for 3x4 = 12 drives in total), so that the mobo needs to have 4 additional SATA connectors. Any problems with those Promise HBAs? Hopefuly they would work with unRAID OS or WHS? I also don't have a mainboard, would prefer an Intel board or anything with at least one, preferably two gigabit controllers and supporting Wake on LAN.

I actually don't need hot-swapable disks, so any cheaper alernative for 5-in-3 bay mounting hardware with its own 12cm fan is highly appreciated.
Those 5-in-3 bay mounting devices are quite expensive and if buy three of them and a case, cost would be dearer than a Norco 4020 (but probably less noisier and smaller).

Regarding the power supply, any 600W Corsair or Chieftec should do, I think?

I though I could start with a couple of new drives, copying existing data from my current 8 drives and inserting them into the RAID as they become freed up.

Thanks much for all your help and suggestions!

Those drives are dogs and you will regret the choice to use them. Trust me, I had a few of them myself. They will not last long.

Since you are not using RAID, you should at least stop buying the 7200.11's and buy another kind of drive for expansion. BTW, you can mix drives in RAID and it will work - it's just not that good for performance. But for serving media, that really doesn't matter that much.

Cut your losses by going to WD or Hitachi drives for expansion, and then when the seagates start dying on you can replace them with the kind you are buying now.
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post #4478 of 7742
11/9/09 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiBz View Post

...
post the bench when you're ready and we'll go from there.

Here is the benchmark test... please comment whatever you find useful, thanks a lot for your time and efforts! Appreciate it



hope you can read this
globetrotters1

Oh, by the way, I defined the backup RAID with the values you mentioned and I got 210 to 240 MB/s copy speed... much better!
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post #4479 of 7742
11/9/09 at 8:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiBz View Post

Ok, that's a lot of drives and arrays but ...

Set your stripe size on the areca to 128K.
Then when you format the volumes in windows use 8K clusters for arrays that will be under 32TB and 16K for arrays under 64TB.

Hmmm. Why the suggestion to use the array size to set the cluster size? If the application is to store large video files, then you want to use maximum cluster size. That way, you reduce file system fragmentation and get improved performance from larger reads/writes.

The only down side is that you lose on the average, half the fragment per file. But that loss is minimal given the fact that we are storing few larger files, than the other way around.
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post #4480 of 7742
11/9/09 at 9:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotters1 View Post

Here is the benchmark test... please comment whatever you find useful, thanks a lot for your time and efforts! Appreciate it



hope you can read this
globetrotters1

Oh, by the way, I defined the backup RAID with the values you mentioned and I got 210 to 240 MB/s copy speed... much better!

Hi, I'm glad you some a good improvement.
Let's see if we can do better.

I don't like the some of the irregularities on that bench tho. I get the impression the drives aren't dealing well with the NCQ implementation. Let's try some changes (non destructive).

In the raid console go to System Config and change the following:

Max SATA mode Supported: SATA 300
HDD Read Ahead Cache: Enabled
Volume Data Read Ahead: Aggressive
Disk Write Cache: Enabled

click on confirm operation and submit.

Then goto VolumeSet Functions (be careful here):
select Modify Volume Set and be sure to select the correct volume and hit submit.

Set Volume Cache mode: Write Back
Tagged Command Queuing: Disabled

click on confirm operation and submit.

run another Atto bench and post it.
Let's see how it handles these changes.
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post #4481 of 7742
11/9/09 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Hmmm. Why the suggestion to use the array size to set the cluster size? If the application is to store large video files, then you want to use maximum cluster size. That way, you reduce file system fragmentation and get improved performance from larger reads/writes.

The only down side is that you lose on the average, half the fragment per file. But that loss is minimal given the fact that we are storing few larger files, than the other way around.

Unfortunately this is a general misconception. Using a max cluster size will show little to no improvement with windows NTFS.

You may also notice most users store meta data, folder and background art with their movie files. When using 64KB clusters (max size), you'll waste a great deal of space because the smallest space a file can occupy is 64KB.
A meta data file is only 1KB and a movie xml file is 3KB.

You just need to meet the min cluster size that can accommodate the eventual size of the array/volume. For most people 8K clusters (max 32TB) is fine. 16KB clusters for those that look forward to 64TB arrays, keeping in mind that this is on a single array and would mean spinning 34 2TB disks on that array. I'm not sure how realistic that is for most people.
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post #4482 of 7742
11/9/09 at 11:16pm
Guys, any info on a choice for a mobo? Any advice on the Promise HBAs and should I go with WHS or unRAID? Thanks!
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post #4483 of 7742
11/10/09 at 2:56am
here are the changes you suggested:



the way I read and interpret this is, that in this case it would be best to use a stripe size of 64 and not of 128, correct?

remark: I'm out of town today and tomorrow, please be patient with me and my reaction time, thanks
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post #4484 of 7742
11/10/09 at 3:55am
Has anyone been able to quiet the Supermicro 24-bay case to tolerate it in a computer room/den (not the actual viewing room)?
Would an exchange of the fans to quieter models make a difference?
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post #4485 of 7742
11/10/09 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotters1 View Post

here are the changes you suggested:

the way I read and interpret this is, that in this case it would be best to use a stripe size of 64 and not of 128, correct?

remark: I'm out of town today and tomorrow, please be patient with me and my reaction time, thanks

No, pls leave the stripe size at 128. Had you changed it to another value before you ran this last bench?

Can you post some details of the array.
Model and nbr of drives.

If you can, either post screenshots of the SystemConfig and VolumeSet page or list the current settings.

Of the changes I mentioned in the previous post, which ones did you need to change ?
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post #4486 of 7742
11/10/09 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

1x Lian Li PC-A17 as used by Lime Tech $150
3x Supermicro CSE-M35T-1B or Icy Dock MB455SPF-B 5-in-3 drive cages 3x $110
15x Seagate ST31500341AS 1.5TB 7200rpm 32MB NCQ drives 7x $150 (already own 8x of them)
3x Promise TX4 SATA150 PCI HBAs
1x unRAID Server Pro USB Flash $139
? mobo
? memory
? p/s

Another vote to change your drives - the 7200.11s are crap. Pretty much anything else is better - personally I think the Samsung F3s are the best value around at the moment. If you run WHS or UnRAID then there is absolutely no reason not to mix disks - in these 'RAID' systems all the disks effectively act completely independently anyway.

As for a mobo - if this is just for media storage I would go cheap, and not bother with server grade hardware, ECC RAM, etc. If your preference is Intel then I'd just get a DQ35JO or similar - that is about the cheapest Intel board with a decent NIC onboard. Couple it with a Celeron E3200 and a 2GB DDR2 DIMM and you're away. More performance than you will need for a media server but very low cost and low power consumption. It has 6 SATA onboard so you're covered for ports.

Regarding a case - I think the Norco would be a better fit for you. Although it is loud, the 5-in-3 adapters are also very loud. It's size also makes things a little easier to work in too. However if you want to go with a 'normal' case but want something cheaper than your Supermicros, I believe CalPC.com make a cheaper, non-hot-swap 5-in-3 adapter. It's not on their website but might be worth a call.

Regarding power supplies - I like Corsair or Seasonic units - I have never had nor heard of a bad one. That's just my personal preference though - there are plenty of other greats brands available, and I would think a good 600W unit would be more than enough.
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post #4487 of 7742
11/10/09 at 10:30am
I've been lurking in here for a while, getting ready to make a unRAID box. One question for you experts. I want hot swappable bays (like the 5 in 3 adapters), but I don't need 15 or 20 bays to start. If I build my machine with just one for now, what problems might I encounter in the future when I want to add another 5 in 3 for more room?

I guess my main question is, can I mix this 5 in 3s from different manufacturers or even model #'s?
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post #4488 of 7742
11/10/09 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejhuzy View Post

I've been lurking in here for a while, getting ready to make a unRAID box. One question for you experts. I want hot swappable bays (like the 5 in 3 adapters), but I don't need 15 or 20 bays to start. If I build my machine with just one for now, what problems might I encounter in the future when I want to add another 5 in 3 for more room?

I guess my main question is, can I mix this 5 in 3s from different manufacturers or even model #'s?

Other than your case looking silly, there is no problem with mixing and matching.

Think of the 5-in-3s like an extension of the SATA cable - you don't need to use the same colour cables for every drive. They do nothing but pass the SATA signalling through to the drive, so all brands are interchangeable.
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post #4489 of 7742
11/10/09 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejhuzy View Post

I guess my main question is, can I mix this 5 in 3s from different manufacturers or even model #'s?

Those 5-in-3's are just mechanical adapters and nothing more, i.e. they just attach to standart SATA cables on their backplane. If you start with a known manufacturer, chances that you would be able to get the same SATA disk stackaer in a while are pretty big, and if not, just look regularly on ebay prior to upgrading.

And besides to the 5-in-3's you would not want all the SATA controllers in the beginning, just get one controller and with the next 5-in-3 stacker the next controller.
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post #4490 of 7742
11/10/09 at 11:12am
Thanks beast and starcat. That's what I was hoping was the case.

So, these 5 in 3's don't attach to the SATA ports on my mobo? You need a controller in the middle? Guess I have some reading to do.
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post #4491 of 7742
11/10/09 at 11:15am
You can use the onboard ports just fine.

Your mobo has a controller onboard, usually in the south bridge.
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post #4492 of 7742
11/10/09 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast666 View Post

You can use the onboard ports just fine.

Your mobo has a controller onboard, usually in the south bridge.

Cool, thanks beast.
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post #4493 of 7742
11/10/09 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast666 View Post

Another vote to change your drives - the 7200.11s are crap. Pretty much anything else is better.

I have already 12 of them and 5 are spinning 24/7 in my Qnap 509 without a hitch. All are same and recent firmware though, not from the bad batch which ruined their reputation though. Probably a WD green is a better choice especially with 5-in-3 adapters and higher density!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast666 View Post

If you run WHS or UnRAID then there is absolutely no reason not to mix disks - in these 'RAID' systems all the disks effectively act completely independently anyway.

Stupid question, but being a linux/unix guy which product do I install WHS from, is it Windows Server 2003 and then choose WHS or so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast666 View Post

As for a mobo - if this is just for media storage I would go cheap, and not bother with server grade hardware, ECC RAM, etc. If your preference is Intel then I'd just get a DQ35JO or similar - that is about the cheapest Intel board with a decent NIC onboard. Couple it with a Celeron E3200 and a 2GB DDR2 DIMM and you're away. More performance than you will need for a media server but very low cost and low power consumption. It has 6 SATA onboard so you're covered for ports.

Just looked up the DQ35JO and it seems that it only has one PCI slot, I would need three in order to use my existing Promise TX4 SATA HBAs which are PCI. Any other mainboard alternative with 3x PCI slots and decent GigE onboard controller? This baby is going to be media server only and not running anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast666 View Post

Regarding a case - I think the Norco would be a better fit for you. Although it is loud, the 5-in-3 adapters are also very loud. It's size also makes things a little easier to work in too.

The Norco is probably cheaper than the Lian Li with 3x Supermicro or Icy Box adapters. Not sure about the noise level as both should use the same amount of fans... You may be right... What about the 4020 having 20 bays, 5 of them would be wasted, so to speak as unRAID can only use 15 disks. What are the differences to WHS and what is the HDD limit of WHS? Which one would you recommend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast666 View Post

However if you want to go with a 'normal' case but want something cheaper than your Supermicros, I believe CalPC.com make a cheaper, non-hot-swap 5-in-3 adapter. It's not on their website but might be worth a call.

This is a great link as I have only seen 4-in-3 non-hotswap SATA disk stackers, will look it up. The hotswap adapters look neater of course, but I don't necessary need hot-swap drives.

I decided to get the Corsair HX 620W ATX 2.2 (CMPSU-620HX), it looks good on specs, is efficient, has modular cabling and uses a 12cm fan.
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post #4494 of 7742
11/10/09 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiBz View Post

This bothers me. I heard some similar rumors from users not being able to enable TLER on the latest batch of 1TB black drives as well. I was planning to get 4 of them for a VM array, but we might need to consider other options.

Have you looked into it further to be sure TLER cannot be enabled on your drive ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by almostinsane View Post

That link doesn't say much. I'm using 5 1.5 EADS in a RAID 5 array and all work with WDTLER. They have been purchased in the last 2 months.

TLER is always disabled on GP drives. You have to enable it with the tool.


please at least know what you're talking about before making a statement for 100%.

i have used the tool on over 40 drives thus far. the newest WD15EADS does NOT allow TLER to be set with the TLER tool. it DOES allow wdidle to be set.








Quote:
Originally Posted by MiBz View Post

This bothers me. I heard some similar rumors from users not being able to enable TLER on the latest batch of 1TB black drives as well. I was planning to get 4 of them for a VM array, but we might need to consider other options.

Have you looked into it further to be sure TLER cannot be enabled on your drive ?

that drive definitely does NOT support TLER.

11 of 12 of my WD15EADS do support it.

the one that doesn't is from 09-30-2009 P model number with the EXACT FIRMWARE as the P models that support TLER. The 09-30-2009 S model numbers with a different firmware version support TLER for me.

I get another drive in tomorrow and will report back on that one. I'll be ordering another 4 when the price comes back to $100 each shipped for Quantity 4.
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post #4495 of 7742
11/10/09 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

Stupid question, but being a linux/unix guy which product do I install WHS from, is it Windows Server 2003 and then choose WHS or so?

WHS is a standalone product. It is not a Server 2003 option, but it is based upon the same code.


Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

Just looked up the DQ35JO and it seems that it only has one PCI slot, I would need three in order to use my existing Promise TX4 SATA HBAs which are PCI. Any other mainboard alternative with 3x PCI slots and decent GigE onboard controller? This baby is going to be media server only and not running anything else.

Sorry - never actually thought to take your cards into consideration! Just looked for cheap board with decent NIC. For 3 PCI slots I would go for the DG43NB instead. You then have onboard graphics, which gives you a PCI-E x16 slot if you ever need to add in a fast RAID card, and lots of x1 slots if you just want to add a few extra disks cheaply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

The Norco is probably cheaper than the Lian Li with 3x Supermicro or Icy Box adapters. Not sure about the noise level as both should use the same amount of fans... You may be right... What about the 4020 having 20 bays, 5 of them would be wasted, so to speak as unRAID can only use 15 disks. What are the differences to WHS and what is the HDD limit of WHS? Which one would you recommend?

I have never actually used either. I will shortly be installing WHS, but it won't be managing my storage array and will run in a VM only, so I can't really comment personally but can pass on my understanding briefly.

WHS is very easy to use and configure, and can be running in 15mins even for a newbie. However it is wasteful on diskspace - UnRAID is much better here. I don't know about UnRAID, so I assume your 15 disk limit is correct. WHS will take 32 disks in its storage pool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

This is a great link as I have only seen 4-in-3 non-hotswap SATA disk stackers, will look it up. The hotswap adapters look neater of course, but I don't necessary need hot-swap drives.

I actually found the CalPC adapter here on their website. No price though I'm afraid, and if you really want a 120mm fan you might have to get out the Dremel. If you ask nicely they may be able to make you a few with the bigger hole though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

I decided to get the Corsair HX 620W ATX 2.2 (CMPSU-620HX), it looks good on specs, is efficient, has modular cabling and uses a 12cm fan.

Nice choice.
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post #4496 of 7742
11/10/09 at 4:28pm
Anyone used the Norco SS-550 5-in-3 stacker? Can the 92mm fan be swaped out against a 120mm with an adapter?

I am just thinking if I should go with the 4220 case or the Li Lian PC-A17B and 3x Norco SS-500. It would be a waste having a 20-bay case and only being able to use 15 of them, kind of psylogical issue :-)
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post #4497 of 7742
11/10/09 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

It would be a waste having a 20-bay case and only being able to use 15 of them, kind of psylogical issue :-)

I have a Norco 4220 with 'only' 6 drives in it. Still makes sense. The cost is good, the construction quality reasonable (for the price). Hotswap is beautiful. And it is not that big, although somewhat deep. How are you going to do better with 5 in 3 adapters?

Once you get rid of the 80 mm Delta screamer fans, it is even pretty quiet. Plenty of room inside, too.

See your therapist about the empty bay issue.
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post #4498 of 7742
11/10/09 at 4:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

Anyone used the Norco SS-550 5-in-3 stacker? Can the 92mm fan be swaped out against a 120mm with an adapter?

I am just thinking if I should go with the 4220 case or the Li Lian PC-A17B and 3x Norco SS-500. It would be a waste having a 20-bay case and only being able to use 15 of them, kind of psylogical issue :-)

Not sure why you're limiting yourself to 15, but if it's a unRAID limitation, I think newer levels of unRAID are supporting more drives now. At least I thought I read that over on the unRAID forums.
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post #4499 of 7742
11/10/09 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post

I have a Norco 4220 with 'only' 6 drives in it. Still makes sense. The cost is good, the construction quality reasonable (for the price). Hotswap is beautiful. And it is not that big, although somewhat deep. How are you going to do better with 5 in 3 adapters?

Once you get rid of the 80 mm Delta screamer fans, it is even pretty quiet. Plenty of room inside, too.

See your therapist about the empty bay issue.

Agreed, I have a Chenbro SR109 which holds 15 drives (3 5-to-3 Hot Swap HDD Cages) + 1 drive for the O/S. I only have 10 bays occupied. Yes, the remaining 5 bays look lonely, but I have learned to deal with it
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post #4500 of 7742
11/10/09 at 6:07pm
I read about the 15 drive limit, need to check the recent unRAID specs however. Still can't decide between WHS and unRAID. Have to check if unRAID supports cards like the SuperMicro being a perfect fit for the 4220.

You guys are probably right about the Norco instead of all other destop cases with expensive 5-in-3 stackers in there. I am leaning more towards the 4220 and exchanging the midplane fans against three 140mm fans glued together on a lexan plate.
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