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post #7471 of 7741
7/23/12 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

If your drives are not SSD and are only HDD then it does not matter and the above advice is not accurate.
While I generally put SATA3 HDD's on SATA3 ports when possible... for HDD it would not matter if you had a SATA2 port with a SATA3 HDD on it. The performance is the same.
Normal HDD's can not fully saturate a SATA2 port so there is no difference with normal hard drives if you use a sata2 or sata3 port.
The results are the same.
Only an SSD can fully saturate a sata2 port. Put your SSD on that.
The rest don't matter.

EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT IS NOT ACCURATE?

Connecting a SATA III drive to a SATA II port and only getting a SATA I connection speed does matter. I have seen this occur with both onboard ports and addin controllers.
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post #7472 of 7741
7/23/12 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John P View Post

EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT IS NOT ACCURATE?
Connecting a SATA III drive to a SATA II port and only getting a SATA I connection speed does matter. I have seen this occur with both onboard ports and addin controllers.

It doesn't matter. WIth the possible exception of a 10,000 rpm VelociRaptor drive, the throughput of the hard drive is less than the throughput of a SATA 1.5gbps interface.

And it certainly doesn't matter between a SATA 3.0gbps and a SATA 6.0gbps.

The reason you can "Connect a SATA III drive to a SATA II port and only get a SATA I connection speed" is not because of the SATA interface but because that's as fast as the hard disk will operate regardless of what it's connected to.
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post #7473 of 7741
7/23/12 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John P View Post

EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT IS NOT ACCURATE?
Connecting a SATA III drive to a SATA II port and only getting a SATA I connection speed does matter. I have seen this occur with both onboard ports and addin controllers.

I have never seen a Sata3 on a sata2 downclock to sata1. I have done it.

So my theory stands correct anyhow.. since I use up the fastest ports on my motherboard first... and try to match the same sata drive to port if possible.
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post #7474 of 7741
7/23/12 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

It doesn't matter. WIth the possible exception of a 10,000 rpm VelociRaptor drive, the throughput of the hard drive is less than the throughput of a SATA 1.5gbps interface.
And it certainly doesn't matter between a SATA 3.0gbps and a SATA 6.0gbps.
The reason you can "Connect a SATA III drive to a SATA II port and only get a SATA I connection speed" is not because of the SATA interface but because that's as fast as the hard disk will operate regardless of what it's connected to.

No.

10k RPM Raptors and velociraptors are still slow as dirt. They won't saturate a Sata2 port at all.

While faster than HDD normal- they are way slower than SSD.
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post #7475 of 7741
7/23/12 at 4:39pm
Is it possible for me to install uTorrent on WHS 2011? I have a setup where I use Event Ghost, SCRU, and the Renamer to automatically extract, move and rename anything I download. Then MCM gets the metadata for it. Since my server is on 24/7 and my goal is to put everything but MCM on the server and put the HTPC into sleep when I'm not using it. Is this setup possible or am I going to have to go another route? I'm not worried about viruses.
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post #7476 of 7741
7/23/12 at 5:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

No.
10k RPM Raptors and velociraptors are still slow as dirt. They won't saturate a Sata2 port at all.
While faster than HDD normal- they are way slower than SSD.

It depend on what is the areal density of these 10K drives. If they are older such as 500GB, then they are even slower than larger 7K drives with the same number of platters and let's say, 1TB or 2TB.

10K drives are 39% faster than 7K drives of the same density, same number of platters.
2TB drives are 100% faster than 1TB drives of the same spindle speed and same number of platters.

So a larger drive even at slower spindle speed and same number of platters are usually faster than smaller drive because higher areal density is used. So 10K drive does not automatically mean they are fast. They were usually fastest at the time they were made.

I use a 250GB, single platter 7K drive in my home PC. It is the fastest 250GB 2.5in HDD because of its high areal density.

As for comparing to SSD, they are two different animals. Large file size write (program) is actually the worst case since it will over run the DRAM cache inside the SSD. If the SSD is almost full, then erase will take over and it will be at almost stand still.
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post #7477 of 7741
7/23/12 at 5:04pm
@ Jack :

uTorrent on the server .... sure . Is it advisable , NO !

My opinion only but I open my server to the WAN about as little as possible. I know you are not worried about viruses but think if one got in the server ( especially uTorrent) and your other computers of which could be many, would or could also get infected through "shares"

Just my way of thinking though
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post #7478 of 7741
7/29/12 at 6:59am
Info on my current build can be found here:

http://forum.team-mediaportal.com/threads/my-56tb-and-growing-file-server.106025/
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post #7479 of 7741
8/2/12 at 10:16am
How long should a FlexRaid verify take? I have about 3TB of data and the verify takes about 3 and a half hours. Is that normal?

Am I ok modifying the data on the Array while the verify is running?
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post #7480 of 7741
8/2/12 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pm123 View Post

How long should a FlexRaid verify take? I have about 3TB of data and the verify takes about 3 and a half hours. Is that normal?
Am I ok modifying the data on the Array while the verify is running?

Yes. Normal.

No. I wouldn't.
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post #7481 of 7741
8/2/12 at 10:42am
Ugh. My server was running great getting good speeds and then yesterday all of a sudden the speeds just dropped off, like from 120 mb/s to 13 kb/s. I didn't make any changes to it, or my network. I was able to get it running again enough to run one movie transfer then it just died off again and I haven't been able to get the speeds up again. Checked all the hard drives on the server and they are fine, the raid array updated no problem this morning. I tried direct connecting it to my HTPC to see if it was my router but I couldn't get them to see eachother. Any advice on how to do that or maybe some tips on my config settings. My HTPC is Realtek and my server is Intel.
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post #7482 of 7741
8/2/12 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackDiesel14 View Post

Ugh. My server was running great getting good speeds and then yesterday all of a sudden the speeds just dropped off, like from 120 mb/s to 13 kb/s. I didn't make any changes to it, or my network. I was able to get it running again enough to run one movie transfer then it just died off again and I haven't been able to get the speeds up again. Checked all the hard drives on the server and they are fine, the raid array updated no problem this morning. I tried direct connecting it to my HTPC to see if it was my router but I couldn't get them to see eachother. Any advice on how to do that or maybe some tips on my config settings. My HTPC is Realtek and my server is Intel.

Do you have auto update turned on either of the two machines? Might want to see if anything was installed? If so, maybe roll back?
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post #7483 of 7741
8/2/12 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepmback View Post

Do you have auto update turned on either of the two machines? Might want to see if anything was installed? If so, maybe roll back?

Yes I do and I already rolled it back, didn't fix anything. It was weird it was like as soon as the file I transfered over had finished the connection between the two just died. I'm hoping that by the time I get back from work things will be good to go but I'm not counting on it.
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post #7484 of 7741
8/6/12 at 5:06am
So I created another thread, but in reviewing this one, it appears my question would be better suited here. I am fairly certain (based on certain activity) that the PSU in my system is quickly dying. That being said, I'm looking for a solid replacement in the sub $100 range. I'm running and Athlon X2 on the Abit KN8-SLI board. I have a couple SATA expander cards and currently have 10 data drives plus my OS drive for a total of 11HDD and then my optical BD RW drive. I may (down the road) purchase different case like one of the NORCO units and add more drives, or I may go with an external drive array connected via eSATA as my system grows. In a PSU I'm looking for reliability, and efficiency as my system is on 24x7. most of the drives (ie 85 or so %) are all green drives. I'm using a very generic video card as this is only for file storage/streaming host, not direct playback.

Here are a couple I saw that got my interest, and I would love some guidance.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182200&Tpk=17-182-200&nm_mc=EMC-GD080312&cm_mmc=EMC-GD080312-_-index-_-Item-_-17-182-200
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703036 (based on assassin's guide).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339034

Thank you in advance for your assistance.
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post #7485 of 7741
8/7/12 at 11:49am
Quick question here: I'm piecing together my home server and was looking to get a SSD for the OS. Does the read/write speed of the SSD have any impact (speed-wise or any other way) on accessing data on the storage drives across the network?

I am looking at the Patriot Torqx2 (PT264GS25SSDR) which is on sale AF for $39.97.
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post #7486 of 7741
8/7/12 at 12:09pm
Generally slow reads and writes mean the ssd will be "slow" in the other areas. But it should still be plenty faster than an hdd.
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post #7487 of 7741
8/7/12 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFish12 View Post

Quick question here: I'm piecing together my home server and was looking to get a SSD for the OS. Does the read/write speed of the SSD have any impact (speed-wise or any other way) on accessing data on the storage drives across the network?
I am looking at the Patriot Torqx2 (PT264GS25SSDR) which is on sale AF for $39.97.


ALL SSDs are basically fast and the speed of the SSD shouldn't have any material impact on the data access speed to your hard drives. But I think there's a different issue with respect to that one. If I'm not mistaken, that is an OLD generation SSD with a Phison controller. Which is why it's being basically given away. Truly, with respect to solid state drives, the technology keeps advancing so rapidly that you want a current generation drive (which will include basically any SATA III drive, preferably with either a Marvel 9174 or Sandforce SF-2281 controller, or a Samsung), or if a SATA II, then one with a Sandforce SF-1222 controller.

Yes, there is a reason it's cheap.
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post #7488 of 7741
8/8/12 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFish12 View Post

Quick question here: I'm piecing together my home server and was looking to get a SSD for the OS. Does the read/write speed of the SSD have any impact (speed-wise or any other way) on accessing data on the storage drives across the network?
I am looking at the Patriot Torqx2 (PT264GS25SSDR) which is on sale AF for $39.97.

In my WHS2011 server I am using an 50GB OCZ Vertex II SSD it is an older SATA II drive. Two improvements I have seen. First opening the Dashboard is much quicker. Second my storage drive (D:) now spins down based on the power settings. Without the SSD the hard drive was spinning all of the time regardless of the power settings.
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post #7489 of 7741
8/9/12 at 1:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by John P View Post

You did not say what SATA speeds your drives support. I would recommend you connect the drives to a SATA ports that support the same speed or a faster speed. Connecting a 3GB drive to a 6GB port does not improve permormance.
I have had had problems connecting drives that supported 6GB to a 3GB SATA port only connecting at 1.5GB. You can use System Information for Windows (SIW) to verfiy connected and supported SATA speed. http://www.gtopala.com/ See bottom of the web page for free home edition.
SATA cables are all the same. SATA III (6GB) is designed to be backwards compatible.

If your drives are not SSD and are only HDD then it does not matter and the above advice is not accurate.

While I generally put SATA3 HDD's on SATA3 ports when possible... for HDD it would not matter if you had a SATA2 port with a SATA3 HDD on it. The performance is the same.

Normal HDD's can not fully saturate a SATA2 port so there is no difference with normal hard drives if you use a sata2 or sata3 port.

The results are the same.

Only an SSD can fully saturate a sata2 port. Put your SSD on that.

The rest don't matter.
Mfusick
Wouldn't SATA 6Gb/s Enterprise class drives saturate SATA III (6GB)?
Such as the Seagate constellation ES HDDs..
http://www.seagate.com/internal-hard-drives/enterprise-hard-drives/3-5/constellation-es/
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post #7490 of 7741
8/9/12 at 5:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Mfusick
Wouldn't SATA 6Gb/s Enterprise class drives saturate SATA III (6GB)?
Such as the Seagate constellation ES HDDs..
http://www.seagate.com/internal-hard-drives/enterprise-hard-drives/3-5/constellation-es/


No.

No HDD can saturate a SATA2 or SATA3 port.

A good large SSD can saturate a SATA2 but usually not a SATA3

HDD drives are way slower. Not even close.

As far as HDD is concerned the port speed is not at all a limiting factor.

Mechanical drives are just too slow.
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post #7491 of 7741
8/9/12 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Mfusick
Wouldn't SATA 6Gb/s Enterprise class drives saturate SATA III (6GB)?
Such as the Seagate constellation ES HDDs..
http://www.seagate.com/internal-hard-drives/enterprise-hard-drives/3-5/constellation-es/


No.

No HDD can saturate a SATA2 or SATA3 port.

A good large SSD can saturate a SATA2 but usually not a SATA3

HDD drives are way slower. Not even close.

As far as HDD is concerned the port speed is not at all a limiting factor.

Mechanical drives are just too slow.
Thanks for your reply Mfusick
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post #7492 of 7741
8/14/12 at 8:15am
Quick question: For a media server (probably WHS11) to serve a couple nettop XBMC boxes to stream movies / TV (HD), is it really necessary to complicate things with a SAS Port Expander / RAID card? it seems that there are plenty of MOBO options these days with numerous SATA ports (http://goo.gl/ksVId). I'm not looking for a monster 20+ TB system, so maybe that's what i'm missing. A handful (5 HDD + 1 SSD) should be enough for the average media server. Populate it with 2TB drives and you have a fairly large amount of storage, but i guess "large amount" is dependent on the build.

I have an IT background, have done several server builds utilizing NAS setups and VMware to host several windows server environments. For the cost of some of the items that i see on here, it sure would make sense to go that route and just buy a pre-configured NAS box and iSCSI it to your server. You dont need a monster server to handle serving up some videos and music. Hell, a xeon processor, 8 gigs of ram and a small SSD for the OS would suffice. No need for a giant case and huge power supplies....

These pre-configured NAS boxes are great, and the price seems reasonable at $140 per TB for a fully configured NAS. They have dual gigabit Ethernet that you can bond and support iSCSi to connect it to your server.

If you're going to do hardware RAID, i'd suggest a real RAID card (real=$$$). I've gone both routes in the past building enterprise servers / storage. A decent 8 port RAID card is going to set you back $300 - $700 depending on how extreme you want to go. The other thing to consider is the drives your sticking in that thing and the level of RAID you're looking at. RAID5 / 6 typically has higher IOPS per drive from the parity. You need to look into enterprise drives if you're going to be slamming the crap out of them. Not sure of the IOPS on a media server, probably not too much if it's just streaming video...but this is where my brain keeps going based on real life experience. 2 TB HDD - $200+ Raid card $400. Just the drives alone you're over $140 / TB. Add the setup / compatibility headaches (ever updated the firmware in a HDD?) and a NAS is the way to go, if you're going the expensive route. As long as the OS supports iSCSI then you're all set. Don't have to worry about drivers or compatibility.

I keep flip flopping on the idea; at times a fast system (NAS / iSCSI / RAID) is useful at times, but those times are limited in a media server environment. You're not slamming several SQL databases and running email (Exchange) all of the same NAS. if you don't need the IOPS then the system gets cheaper.



Sorry for the rambling, just want to shed some enterprise experience here. Trying to offer some more insight to the build as i'm looking for some answers as well. Going to be building a 10TB or so server in the next 30 days....
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post #7493 of 7741
8/14/12 at 8:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_town View Post

Quick question: For a media server (probably WHS11) to serve a couple nettop XBMC boxes to stream movies / TV (HD), is it really necessary to complicate things with a SAS Port Expander / RAID card? it seems that there are plenty of MOBO options these days with numerous SATA ports (http://goo.gl/ksVId). I'm not looking for a monster 20+ TB system, so maybe that's what i'm missing. A handful (5 HDD + 1 SSD) should be enough for the average media server. Populate it with 2TB drives and you have a fairly large amount of storage, but i guess "large amount" is dependent on the build.
I have an IT background, have done several server builds utilizing NAS setups and VMware to host several windows server environments. For the cost of some of the items that i see on here, it sure would make sense to go that route and just buy a pre-configured NAS box and iSCSI it to your server. You dont need a monster server to handle serving up some videos and music. Hell, a xeon processor, 8 gigs of ram and a small SSD for the OS would suffice. No need for a giant case and huge power supplies....
These pre-configured NAS boxes are great, and the price seems reasonable at $140 per TB for a fully configured NAS. They have dual gigabit Ethernet that you can bond and support iSCSi to connect it to your server.
If you're going to do hardware RAID, i'd suggest a real RAID card (real=$$$). I've gone both routes in the past building enterprise servers / storage. A decent 8 port RAID card is going to set you back $300 - $700 depending on how extreme you want to go. The other thing to consider is the drives your sticking in that thing and the level of RAID you're looking at. RAID5 / 6 typically has higher IOPS per drive from the parity. You need to look into enterprise drives if you're going to be slamming the crap out of them. Not sure of the IOPS on a media server, probably not too much if it's just streaming video...but this is where my brain keeps going based on real life experience. 2 TB HDD - $200+ Raid card $400. Just the drives alone you're over $140 / TB. Add the setup / compatibility headaches (ever updated the firmware in a HDD?) and a NAS is the way to go, if you're going the expensive route. As long as the OS supports iSCSI then you're all set. Don't have to worry about drivers or compatibility.
I keep flip flopping on the idea; at times a fast system (NAS / iSCSI / RAID) is useful at times, but those times are limited in a media server environment. You're not slamming several SQL databases and running email (Exchange) all of the same NAS. if you don't need the IOPS then the system gets cheaper.
Sorry for the rambling, just want to shed some enterprise experience here. Trying to offer some more insight to the build as i'm looking for some answers as well. Going to be building a 10TB or so server in the next 30 days....

I think there is only one question there: For a media server (probably WHS11) to serve a couple nettop XBMC boxes to stream movies / TV (HD), is it really necessary to complicate things with a SAS Port Expander / RAID card?"

Answer: Most people go with a SAS expander because of cost. They are consideraly cheaper than a full blown raid card that supports 10,20,30 drives. This is based on the cost of a basic SATA/SAS card and adding the cost of software raid such as UnRaid or FlexRaid.I went this route because I do have 20TB+ of storage and want some sort of backup should a hard drie crash.
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post #7494 of 7741
8/14/12 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_town View Post

Quick question: For a media server (probably WHS11) to serve a couple nettop XBMC boxes to stream movies / TV (HD), is it really necessary to complicate things with a SAS Port Expander / RAID card?

IMO, the answer is no. I think software raid is a better option for htpc.
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post #7495 of 7741
8/14/12 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepmback View Post

I think there is only one question there: For a media server (probably WHS11) to serve a couple nettop XBMC boxes to stream movies / TV (HD), is it really necessary to complicate things with a SAS Port Expander / RAID card?"
Answer: Most people go with a SAS expander because of cost. They are consideraly cheaper than a full blown raid card that supports 10,20,30 drives. This is based on the cost of a basic SATA/SAS card and adding the cost of software raid such as UnRaid or FlexRaid.I went this route because I do have 20TB+ of storage and want some sort of backup should a hard drie crash.

That's what I was generally getting from this thread, but there were still some guys suggesting the use of hardware RAID cards, that what generally confused me i guess. I'm going to look into Flexraid, sounds interesting. Still having problems accepting a software raid solution, everything from my background says NO to software RAID. I'll just have to get over that.

What is the main benefit of letting WHS11 manage the disks vs. Flexraid or unraid?

I don't see a point in using a port replicator if there is enough SATA connections on the MOBO, true / false?

Thx again. I'm just having a hard time changing gears to the consumer / pro-sumer mindset from enterprise thinking....
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post #7496 of 7741
8/14/12 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_town View Post

That's what I was generally getting from this thread, but there were still some guys suggesting the use of hardware RAID cards, that what generally confused me i guess. I'm going to look into Flexraid, sounds interesting. Still having problems accepting a software raid solution, everything from my background says NO to software RAID. I'll just have to get over that.
What is the main benefit of letting WHS11 manage the disks vs. Flexraid or unraid?
I don't see a point in using a port replicator if there is enough SATA connections on the MOBO, true / false?
Thx again. I'm just having a hard time changing gears to the consumer / pro-sumer mindset from enterprise thinking....

Correct, no port replicator needed. Some of the new B75 and H77 motherboards have 8 onboard SATA connections natively.

WHS2011 managing the disks won't allow for parity or good software pooling of hard drives both of which I think are essential for a good HTPC server.
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post #7497 of 7741
8/14/12 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepmback View Post

This is based on the cost of a basic SATA/SAS card and adding the cost of software raid such as UnRaid or FlexRaid.I went this route because I do have 20TB+ of storage and want some sort of backup should a hard drie crash.

Thanks, i just want to make sure I'm on the right page here regarding the free RAID software choices.

UnRAID - installed on some media and is the OS of that box (similar setup to FreeNAS) Only difference to FreeNAS i see that is worth mentioning is that it can hot add disks to the pool without major re configuring. Other than that is basically FreeNAS that you have to pay for and don't get out of the box iSCSI support.

FlexRAID - an application / service based software RAID that is installed on top of a Windows OS (would be WHS11 in my case). Main benefit i see is that it does not need it's own server, so only one mobo / processor / ram etc. How does this handle an OS crash / re-install? If it is a windows service and windows is gone, how does one go about rebuilding from catastrophic OS failure? I'd imagine that the OS is installed on a separate drive outside of the storage pool?

Why not just use FreeNAS?
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post #7498 of 7741
8/14/12 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_town View Post

Why not just use FreeNAS?

Off the top of my head (please correct me where there are inaccuracies)...

More flexibility in hard drive selection (I have read that many recommend you not only have the same size hard drive but also the same make and model. This is potential deal breaker for HTPC where adding hard drives as our collections expand is very important)
Much more limited NIC support in FreeNAS
Much more limited support of jumbo frames
Ability to easily expand to additional drives as needed
Variable stability in what I have read about FreeNAS for HTPC
No ability to "spin down" drives when not in use
Less energy efficient which is important in a server on 24-7
Option to run programs from within server (Plex Server, torrents, SABnzbd, Couch Potato, Sick Beard, XBMC, etc, etc)
Is the data available to be accessed in FreeNas when 1 of the hard drives fail? I don't know this answer.
Ability to add full drives at any time to the array
Ability to add full drives of any size at any time to the array
Ease of pooling
Ability for parity drive to provide redundancy to multiple drives (not to be confused with true backup of course)
Unsure if FreeNAS can tolerate multiple HD streams at once given more limited hardware support (one report I read said it only had a max of 30MB/s)
Ease of use within Windows environment (important for some I do realize)
Create or delete entire array without losing data
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post #7499 of 7741
8/14/12 at 5:59pm
e_town. If you started this thread from the beginning it started out to be a guide to servers. It was going to have some builds and general instructions on building your server. Then quite quickly it devolved into a discussion of high end raid cards and serious storage beyond the needs of must users on this forum. Right about this time the HP expander was discovered so that drew quite a bit interest. Basically the focus changed completely and most of the users that wanted cheap and simple lost interest. Then the high end boys migrated to other forums. So the thread stagnated. So in other words the beginning of the thread isn't representative of what it should have been or what it is now.

That being said I personally use Unraid with 26TB of storage. It runs on a older AMD 780 motherboard with a Athlon X2 in it. If I was building now I would be using IBM M1015 HBA's for expansion. You can find them for under $100, so you can have 24 fast ports for less than the cost of a card and an expander. I like Unraid because it works well with cheap hardware, is easy to expand, and gives you some degree of protection. (Again I know it's not the same as a backup) iSCSI is nice but you still need a system to administrate it. You can't just let every box access it. That being said if I had the budget I think that building an ESXi box with WHS and ZFS would be the way to go. Have it all self contained. You'd use WHS to serve it up, and use ZFS to provide the data storage pool with iSCSI or NFS. That way way you'd have redundancy, speed, and it's presented as one big drive. I think this beats hardware raid and is a lot cheaper.
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post #7500 of 7741
8/16/12 at 11:16am
Quick question...

Will defragging the data on your HDDs (including parity drives) help speed up the sync/repair/rebuild processes in typical software RAID solutions (FlexRAID, unRAID, SnapRAID, etc.)? TIA.
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