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Official Sony XBR8 Series Owner's Thread - Page 7

post #181 of 5404
10/16/08 at 6:02pm
How do you tweak the sony xbr8 tv for better picture quality?
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post #182 of 5404
10/16/08 at 6:03pm
There has been a lot of life long Sony people in the 2008 thread that would beg to differ with your reasoning that off-angle viewing is a non issue. Sure many of them are still happy with their tv's but the off angle viewing dropoffs aren't just some made up lies. It is there and anyone who says otherwise is not being truly open minded in my opinion. To me it isn't a huge issue since I live alone but in a family enviroment where you have a chair off to the side or an L shaped couch or if you entertain people and have a wide seating area it is a major issue and one that can't be ignored.
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post #183 of 5404
10/16/08 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

There has been a lot of life long Sony people in the 2008 thread that would beg to differ with your reasoning that off-angle viewing is a non issue. Sure many of them are still happy with their tv's but the off angle viewing dropoffs aren't just some made up lies. It is there and anyone who says otherwise is not being truly open minded in my opinion. To me it isn't a huge issue since I live alone but in a family enviroment where you have a chair off to the side or an L shaped couch or if you entertain people and have a wide seating area it is a major issue and one that can't be ignored.

I agree if you have a small room with poor viewing distance. But with 3 m viewing distance there is room for many people within the sweet spot. I don't see the point of viewing of angle anyway because the surround system is calibrated for the same kind of viewing position...
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post #184 of 5404
10/16/08 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by puremind View Post

Off-Angle viewing is a non-issue that people will invoke when they find nothing else to criticize.

The new LED models now all have Black Frame Insertion / Backlight Scanning, which means they can resolve 1080 lines. In the CNET Tests they rate the Sony and the Samsugn at 1000 lines but we all know those tests are not very precise. Also LCDs are more versatile as they can be used as PC monitors without those annoying phospor trails.

So overall with perfect gamma, contrast, chromaticity and white balance, there is very little to chose from between Plasma and LED LCD. It all boils down to the high power consumtion and poorer performance of under bright conditions of the plasmas and the off-axis viewing quality and barely noticeable blooming of LCDs.

Meh, I wouldn't call 2.07 perfect gamma. The black level performance part of the review was based on the dark room results, not the bright room results.But I agree with most of your points... Except your persistence that the 950 is equal to or better than the xbr8.
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post #185 of 5404
10/16/08 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

You may not be be bias, but you may be slow in the head. You do know every LCD in the past 5 years are abe to lower those "blinding whites" to more natural tones via backlight? It's called options, bright for bright rooms in the day & dimmer in darker dimmer rooms.
In comparison Plasma (especially Pioneer) always have super dim whites where you have to be in a cave to not find it distracting with absolutely no options to adjust for brighter day time rooms.

Oh I'm aware you can lower the level of white but even on normal settings I like the "dimmer" whites on a Plasma since it reminds me of the white I have always seen on my crt's. I've seen the color white on the Pioneer with the brightness turned down and it didn't seem bad at all. I believe Plasmas have a slight edge in PQ and most in the know do as well. Panasonic makes some LCD's they said without constraint that they refuse to make Larger sized LCD's because they believe Plasma's are better in the biggest sizes and are more advanced. With LED's and Local Dimming and Motionflow etc things are better but for someone who wants a natural clean picture where nothing annoys you then plamsa is great. I just simply like a less bright picture I like the shade I hate when the sun is out in the morning in my face. I can see why some like a brighter more vivid picture. I like a relaxing real picture. Even at normal brightness the Elite will have better shadow detail and thats important to me. So lighten up I'm well aware of the ability to change the picture brightness but I think AMP/Motionflow make the picture look unnatural and I just think the Elite is the best. Just because you don't like plasma doesn't mean its any less than lcd. I've seen this in a domestic environment with the brighness down a bit and it looked superb.
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post #186 of 5404
10/16/08 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

You may not be be bias, but you may be slow in the head. You do know every LCD in the past 5 years are abe to lower those "blinding whites" to more natural tones via backlight? It's called options, bright for bright rooms in the day & dimmer in darker dimmer rooms.
In comparison Plasma (especially Pioneer) always have super dim whites where you have to be in a cave to not find it distracting with absolutely no options to adjust for brighter day time rooms.

Not trying to point you out wtfer but I think what dmarek87's problem is not that he is slow but rather that he posted pro plasma misinformed post in the LCD forum rather than the flat panel forum. The same old PDP vs LCD misinformed debate is inevitable after that. Both his and your post and a few after that are absolutely ridiculous!!!

Cheers
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post #187 of 5404
10/16/08 at 6:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarek87 View Post

Oh I'm aware you can lower the level of white but even on normal settings I like the "dimmer" whites on a Plasma since it reminds me of the white I have always seen on my crt's. I've seen the color white on the Pioneer with the brightness turned down and it didn't seem bad at all. I believe Plasmas have a slight edge in PQ and most in the know do as well. Panasonic makes some LCD's they said without constraint that they refuse to make Larger sized LCD's because they believe Plasma's are better in the biggest sizes and are more advanced. With LED's and Local Dimming and Motionflow etc things are better but for someone who wants a natural clean picture where nothing annoys you then plamsa is great. I just simply like a less bright picture I like the shade I hate when the sun is out in the morning in my face. I can see why some like a brighter more vivid picture. I like a relaxing real picture. Even at normal brightness the Elite will have better shadow detail and thats important to me. So lighten up I'm well aware of the ability to change the picture brightness but I think AMP/Motionflow make the picture look unnatural and I just think the Elite is the best. Just because you don't like plasma doesn't mean its any less than lcd. I've seen this in a domestic environment with the brighness down a bit and it looked superb.

The dynamic brightness of Plasma versus the static brightness of LCD has both benefits and drawbacks for both. There is a good thread on this in the Flat Panel area. We should keep the PDP vs LCD out of here as it quickly gets out of hand.
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post #188 of 5404
10/16/08 at 6:57pm
From the review, it looks like the blooming (actually called crosstalk) issue is more mitigated on the XBR8 vs the 950. If so that is a big step for me. I really hope the zones are not visible like I saw on the 950. Because of the viewing angle this can't be my primary display (it is also a little small and way way way too fat). Right now, my favorite LCD is still the 850/860. Can't wait to demo the XBR8 here in Canada.

Cheers
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post #189 of 5404
10/16/08 at 7:03pm
Are you aware of the new update on newer 950's xrox? This is interesting.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...?tag=mncol;txt
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post #190 of 5404
10/16/08 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

Are you aware of the new update on newer 950's xrox? This is interesting.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...?tag=mncol;txt

I didn't realize. Thanks....
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post #191 of 5404
10/16/08 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

Meh, I wouldn't call 2.07 perfect gamma. The black level performance part of the review was based on the dark room results, not the bright room results.But I agree with most of your points... Except your persistence that the 950 is equal to or better than the xbr8.

2,07 is the post-calibration gamma. A german review had a post-calibration gamma of 2,2.

I don't understand why the reviewer calibrates to 2,07 and then goes on complaining about details being "a tad too light" on the Sony. Perhaps with a 2,22 gamma the pioneer would have lost the black level battle?

Clearly the quoted gamma is a calibration problem, not a problem with the display. If shadow details are too light, then there is room for even better gamma and black level....

I did not pretend the Samsung has better picture quality. I posted a test that claimed this but refuted it! M ypoint of view is the picture quality is equivalent. The Samsung only wins by virtue of the price.

Blooming was not raised as an issue in European testsd concerning the Samsung. People in Europe were actually quite surprised that CNET thought it was a real issue. But then there are different software version with different M-Gamma and LD Level values in the service menu.

Increasing LD Level to 50 or 100 (instead of 32) elimiates the blooming almost completely. I am guessing that the Service Menu manipulation mentioned about the update are tackling this particular parameter.
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post #192 of 5404
10/16/08 at 10:16pm
As a gamer, this paragraph in the CNET review scared me a bit:

"One final video processing note: we noticed significant delay with the Sony XBR8 compared with other displays (including the XBR6) when connected to the same source. We recommend that gamers take advantage of the Game mode, which bypasses all processing and eliminated the delay in our tests, to avoid frustrating lag between the controller and the onscreen action."

If they noticed significant delay compared to other displays and turning on the game mode and elimenated the delay, is there still a chance that there is still some delay? I mainly am a gamer and want the best possible set and the Xbr8 is what I have been eyeing, but that scared me a bit.

By turning off everything, I wonder what is till able to be adjusted...can you turn on certain things or is it just on or off?

I hope someone that is a gamer plays a bit more with the set before I pull the trigger...if I pull the trigger.
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post #193 of 5404
10/16/08 at 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by puremind View Post

2,07 is the post-calibration gamma. A german review had a post-calibration gamma of 2,2.

I don't understand why the reviewer calibrates to 2,07 and then goes on complaining about details being "a tad too light" on the Sony. Perhaps with a 2,22 gamma the pioneer would have lost the black level battle?

Calibrating a display to 2,07 will indeed result milkier picture that looks flatter(greyer) and lacks some of 2,2 gamma punch.
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post #194 of 5404
10/17/08 at 3:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpbandaid View Post

Calibrating a display to 2,07 will indeed result milkier picture that looks flatter(greyer) and lacks some of 2,2 gamma punch.

It was a rethorical question

In other words, I think CNET reviews are biased.

Why calibrate an LCD to 40ft / 137cd/m² and 2,07 gamma. CNET claim higher luminance would cause a strain on the eyes in a completely dark environment. I find the contrary to be true...focusing on such low luminance levels of luminance for a long period causes the iris strain. It is like reading a book in low light conditions.

We all know plasma have limited peak luminance and LCDs are optimized for higher luminance levels. So in fact CNET tests fatally favour plasmas.
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post #195 of 5404
10/17/08 at 4:36am
What gamma controls does the XBR8 have?? But it may be a review mistake. On the 111, the HDGURU used gamma one (sub 2.00 gamma) instead of 2, which has a 2.20-2.24 gamma (or close).
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post #196 of 5404
10/17/08 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon View Post

If they noticed significant delay compared to other displays and turning on the game mode and elimenated the delay, is there still a chance that there is still some delay? I mainly am a gamer and want the best possible set and the Xbr8 is what I have been eyeing, but that scared me a bit.

By turning off everything, I wonder what is till able to be adjusted...can you turn on certain things or is it just on or off?

Game mode should take care of lag because there is so much more video processing going on in other modes that it would slow the processing from controller to screen and make it slower than on game mode which i think turns off the unnecessary things for gaming itself but i still heard the lag is not as bad on other modes as well... I am also a gamer and looking at this model for it's awesome shadow detail and pq...
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post #197 of 5404
10/17/08 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon View Post

As a gamer, this paragraph in the CNET review scared me a bit:

"One final video processing note: we noticed significant delay with the Sony XBR8 compared with other displays (including the XBR6) when connected to the same source. We recommend that gamers take advantage of the Game mode, which bypasses all processing and eliminated the delay in our tests, to avoid frustrating lag between the controller and the onscreen action."

If they noticed significant delay compared to other displays and turning on the game mode and elimenated the delay, is there still a chance that there is still some delay? I mainly am a gamer and want the best possible set and the Xbr8 is what I have been eyeing, but that scared me a bit.

By turning off everything, I wonder what is till able to be adjusted...can you turn on certain things or is it just on or off?

I hope someone that is a gamer plays a bit more with the set before I pull the trigger...if I pull the trigger.

It makes sense that you would have input lag on games since you don't have game mode on. I can tell the difference between it on an off on my XBR3. As for more delay than the xbr6 comment, there could be more video lag with some of the advanced picture options on.
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post #198 of 5404
10/17/08 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wease View Post

Game mode should take care of lag because there is so much more video processing going on in other modes that it would slow the processing from controller to screen and make it slower than on game mode which i think turns off the unnecessary things for gaming itself but i still heard the lag is not as bad on other modes as well... I am also a gamer and looking at this model for it's awesome shadow detail and pq...

Game mode disables local dimming of the LED backlight on the XBR8 series... So, I really wonder how much benefit there is over the XBR6 series if a person uses a XBR8 with game mode on. Perhaps Sony will allow for game mode with "sequential backlighting" on the '09 LED backlit LCDs (KDL-55XBR100... )

Perhaps the KDL-52XBR6 or 7 might be a better solution for Game Mode usage?
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post #199 of 5404
10/17/08 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

Game mode disables local dimming of the LED backlight on the XBR8 series... So, I really wonder how much benefit there is over the XBR6 series if a person uses a XBR8 with game mode on. Perhaps Sony will allow for game mode with "sequential backlighting" on the '09 LED backlit LCDs (KDL-55XBR100... )

Is this confirmed that game mode shuts down the local dimming effects of the XBR8? That would compromise the black level considerably correct? With ME and cinemotion and all other processing turned off EXCEPT for the led local dimming feature, would games suffer lag?

I never used game mode on my XBR4 and ps3, I simply shut off cinemotion and ME.
I would be saddened to hear the LED Dynamic control standard setting would affect gaming.

Any confirmed thoughts on this?
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post #200 of 5404
10/17/08 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Burn View Post

Is this confirmed that game mode shuts down the local dimming effects of the XBR8? That would compromise the black level considerably correct? With ME and cinemotion and all other processing turned off EXCEPT for the led local dimming feature, would games suffer lag?

I never used game mode on my XBR4 and ps3, I simply shut off cinemotion and ME.
I would be saddened to hear the LED Dynamic control standard setting would affect gaming.

Any confirmed thoughts on this?

I've confirmed that game mode disables local dimming when checking out the KDL-55XBR8 in person:
1. Verify Game Mode is off for the current input
2. Verify LED Dynamic Control is set to "Standard" for the current input.
3. View content with black regions (e.g. widescreen movie) and observe pitch black horizontal bars when viewed on axis.
4. Enable game mode
5. Observe that the whole screen brightens (horizontal black bars exhibit a glow - not locally dimmed)
6. Navigate to the LED Dynamic Control setting
7. Observe that the control is disabled (effectively set to "OFF")

The LED backlight brightens just like a CCFL backlight when game mode is enabled (static backlight). That's why with the XBR8, there doesn't appear to be much benefit if the primary usage of the TV is with game mode enabled... get it? If you don't, try the steps above...
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post #201 of 5404
10/17/08 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

I've confirmed that game mode disables Local dimming when checking out the KDL-55XBR8 in person. The LED backlight brightens just like a CCFL backlight when game mode is enabled (static backlight). So, thats why with the XBR8, there doesn't appear to be much benefit if the primary usage of the TV is with game mode enabled... get it?

got it, but the Dynamic LED settings has no connection to game lag correct? I know that Cinemotion and ME can affect games this way, but I assume the LED local dimming does not right?
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post #202 of 5404
10/17/08 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Burn View Post

got it, but the Dynamic LED settings has no connection to game lag correct? I know that Cinemotion and ME can affect games this way, but I assume the LED local dimming does not right?

Input lag between:

Game Mode: Off
LED Dynamic Control: On (Standard/Low)
Cinemotion: Off
Motion Enhancer: Off

and

Game Mode: On
LED Dynamic Control: Disabled
Cinemotion: Disabled
Motion Enhancer: Disabled

is TBD
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post #203 of 5404
10/17/08 at 2:33pm
Cnet's picture settings for the 55xbr8
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10065972-1.html
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post #204 of 5404
10/17/08 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

Input lag between:

Game Mode: Off
LED Dynamic Control: On (Standard/Low)
Cinemotion: Off
Motion Enhancer: Off
is TBD

I have to imagine that there wont be lag with these settings. The number one selling point of this set is the local dimming, and with PS3 and XBR8 both being Sony products, I cant imagine they would produce such a fatal flaw for gamers. I am happy to keep cinemotion and ME off, I usually do, but the dynamic led isn't altering the source material like those other settings are, game lag should not be a symptom.

My xbr8 isnt in yet as I live in Canada, I hope someone can test this out before I pick mine up on nov 1
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post #205 of 5404
10/17/08 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Burn View Post

I have to imagine that there wont be lag with these settings. The number one selling point of this set is the local dimming, and with PS3 and XBR8 both being Sony products, I cant imagine they would produce such a fatal flaw for gamers. I am happy to keep cinemotion and ME off, I usually do, but the dynamic led isn't altering the source material like those other settings are, game lag should not be a symptom.

My xbr8 isnt in yet as I live in Canada, I hope someone can test this out before I pick mine up on nov 1

If the noted delay was caused by setting Cinemotion to "Auto 1" instead of "OFF" (per CNet's review settings), then there shouldn't be much of an issue.

Do you experience much of a delay when you enable Cinemotion on your XBR4?
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post #206 of 5404
10/17/08 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

I've confirmed that game mode disables local dimming when checking out the KDL-55XBR8 in person:

I guess the xbr 8 would work to hard with it on so instead it shuts down everything and turns into an ordinary backlight but i am sure with nice pq and detail but not as much as with local dimming on???
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post #207 of 5404
10/17/08 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Burn View Post

I have to imagine that there wont be lag with these settings. The number one selling point of this set is the local dimming, and with PS3 and XBR8 both being Sony products, I cant imagine they would produce such a fatal flaw for gamers. I am happy to keep cinemotion and ME off, I usually do, but the dynamic led isn't altering the source material like those other settings are, game lag should not be a symptom.

My xbr8 isnt in yet as I live in Canada, I hope someone can test this out before I pick mine up on nov 1

The Samsung has a pc mode with very little input lag that preserves LED Local Dimming. Maybe there is somethign equivalent on the Sony?
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post #208 of 5404
10/17/08 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

If the noted delay was caused by setting Cinemotion to "Auto 1" instead of "OFF" (per CNet's review settings), then there shouldn't be much of an issue.

Do you experience much of a delay when you enable Cinemotion on your XBR4?

To be honest, I never used my ps3 with cinemotion due to reports of lag.
But I have seen posts regarding this with games that require twitchy controls like FP shooters. I certainly never had an issue with lag with these settings turned off.

Because the Dynamic LED settings are not filters of any kind like ME and Cinemotion are, they should not affect gaming any more than they would movies or television. The LED settings are not altering frame rate or artificially enhancing the source signal, only dimming when the source is darker.

Sounds logical to me anyway, and again I cant imagine a company that puts out a game system, alienating its audience with its flagship television.
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post #209 of 5404
10/17/08 at 6:07pm
Speaker grills now instock at sonystyle for XBR8. Looks like no changeable bezels this year.
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post #210 of 5404
10/17/08 at 7:46pm
^^ Thanks for the heads-up Mugen. I found about that yesterday when I was reading the Cnet review. I forgot to mention (here) about the speaker grilles being available.

BTW, did anyone here have chance to investigate more about the supposed auto dimming of the picture we talked about. You know when you turn off ACE (and was there something else?)...

MUGEN: I'm looking at the online manual now and I remember you telling me that you can turn off the Light sensor on this TV. Because I remember asking you if you recommended covering the light sensor on front of the TV (when were discussing auto dimming one time).

1. The only thing I see in the manual in regards to picture adjustment functions, that has the word LIGHT in it is, 'AUTO LIGHT LIMITER'. Which reads:
"Reduces glare as such as in scenes where the entire screen is white."

I don't see an option to turn off the Light Sensor. AM I JUST MISSING IT? Thanks.
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