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Will I Blow Out My Speakers at 100+ dbs?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
Hi there! Newbie to the Forum here, and I thought I would seek the wisdom of those who, unlike me, have a clue about Home Theater issues. I posted this at the Home Theater section, but no one seemed to have suggestions.

So I got a new system and I was using the Avia DVD for calibration. When it came to the speakers, the test tones were designed to be set at a volume that would be 85 dbs for replicating the sound level in theaters. After getting a headache listening to tones and tweaking, my new Onkyo 606 receiver was set to volume level 69 (range is from 0-79). I know that for home theater one can tweak it down to 75 dbs for a slightly less room-shaking experience. But I have to admit I love huge volume when watching films, and would prefer to watch movies at the higher sound level.

So I decided to give the system a test run by popping in 300. WOW! The TruHD was absurdly amazing, even though I only have a 5.1 set-up. But I could only watch for about 5 minutes. I did not stop due to impending deafness (although maybe that could have been an issue). Rather, I started freaking out that I might blow my speakers and/or my receiver. While normal sounds were clocking in at about the 80-85 db level, the more dramatic crashes were in the 100+ db level. On one hand, I understand that in theater the 85 db level is meant for normal sounds levels, but it is designed to peak at 105 dbs. So the 102 level I was registering was fine.

On the other hand, do I risk damaging the equipment watching a movie at that level??? My speakers are the KEF KHT-3005 5.1 system. The main, center and surround speakers are meant to be powered by receivers up to 100 watts (the Onkyo is 90 I believe), and the sub is of the 250 watt variety. I did not notice any clipping, or distortions.

So is it ok to run this system at 87% of its volume capacity??? Or do I need to crank this baby down?

Thanks for your input!
post #2 of 25
If you destroy your hearing, you will never be able to enjoy your system again! Be careful!
post #3 of 25
As long as your amp can deliver enough power without clipping, your speakers should be OK with peaks slightly over 100db.
post #4 of 25
kef says that your speakers are good for 108-109dbl so go ahead but remember if you hear any distorsion turn it down and please take care of your ears you only have 2.
post #5 of 25
+1 on the no distortion; as long as the receiver is putting out clean power your speakers are fine for the short bursts needed to achieve 100+db
post #6 of 25
Thread Starter 
Thanks for everyone's sound advise. And especially thanks to Audio0947 for knowing the max db level for the speakers!! Very helpful.
post #7 of 25
it has been mentioned several time in the responses, but while you may "enjoy" the high volumes now, a few years in the future it won't make any difference, between the nerve deafness and constant ringing in your ears (tinnitus), music and movies just won't be the same. You won't even know what you are have lost until it's too late to prevent it.
post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 
Thanks, I have tried to be somewhat careful about protecting my ears up to this point in life. Although I guess I am curious about movie theater reference levels (85 dbs for normal dialogue, with peaks in sound at 105 dbs). Is this leve harmful to human hearing if viewing movies on a semi regular basis (say 3-4 a week)?

Thoughts?
post #9 of 25
A quick google search brought me to this:

http://www.abelard.org/hear/hear.php

If you spend more than the 2 seconds I did on google you'll probably find an actual scientific publication. IMO just don't listen to things stupidly loud, it's a fast route to deafness if you do. Take pride in your hearing ability and enjoy the subtleties and quality of sound rather than amplification thereof.

-Ex
post #10 of 25
Sometimes you just NEED it loud.
post #11 of 25
LOL its about 105db peaks Per Channel. And 115Db for the LFe only. Its something like 120db peaks put together. And remember every 3db increase is a doubling of watts. So if you were using like 50 watts at 98db to get 101db you would need a 100watts and so on. Every 10db seems like something is twice as loud. So from 100db to 110 db it seems like double the volume. So as you can imagine your not close to reference with with all your speakers and subs peaking at 102db.
post #12 of 25
It would help to know how far each speaker is from your listening position. Based on the distance and 88db efficiency rating for your left and right speakers ,rears, and 90db rating for your center it is possible to calculate the maximum spl for each speaker based on the amount of power your receiver is able to dish out. Im not sure but i think you speakers can only take a maximum of 100 watts. The kef site does not state real specific specs on the power handling.
http://www.kef.com/Kefamerica/ht3000...fications2.htm

Here is some interesting test.http://hometheatermag.com/compactspe...ef/index2.html You should be safe but my guess your very close to the limits of your equipment.
post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakewash View Post

Sometimes you just NEED it loud.

I will agree in the case of loud peaks, but not continuous loudness (music, for example).

-Ex
post #14 of 25
mwhitmoe -- That 85dB in a movie theater is for average program level, not dialog. Shouting is 75dB dialog, not normal speaking level. You don't have a movie theater, you have a home theater - a big (like over 10 times the room volume) difference. AVIA is wrong, correct home calibration should be done at 75dB average sound levels "at the listening position". The fact that AVIA has recorded their calibration tones at 85dB, doesn't mean you have to use it at 85dB at your listening position. That's 10 times louder than you should be using.

BTW, 145dB is the sound level on the top of an Atlas rocket and would destroy your hearing in under 5 minutes. An actual 120db, at your ears, is the threshold of pain.

a3plew -- Your numbers are incorrect. A 3dB (actually 3.01dB) increase in sound level is a doubling of the sound power (and apparent loudness). A 10dB change is an increase of 10 times the apparent loudness and sound power. The equation is dB = 10 x log (Power2 / Power1) - base 10 logarithms.

jakewash -- But you need your hearing for a lifetime (hearing aids are a pain in the a** to wear). No one "needs" it loud, you may like it loud, but you don't "need" it. A lot of musicians in Rock Bands are hard of hearing, and the older ones are almost deaf.

A lot of the local teenagers, in my neighborhood, that run their car stereo woofers loud enough to hear a block away will be deaf in 10 years.
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

mwhitmoe -- That 85dB in a movie theater is for average program level, not dialog. Shouting is 75dB dialog, not normal speaking level. You don't have a movie theater, you have a home theater - a big (like over 10 times the room volume) difference. AVIA is wrong, correct home calibration should be done at 75dB average sound levels "at the listening position". The fact that AVIA has recorded their calibration tones at 85dB, doesn't mean you have to use it at 85dB at your listening position. That's 10 times louder than you should be using.


No, 85dB is correct. The fact that internal tones in many receivers are implemented 10dB low is the same as using Avia at 85dB for the SPL meter. Dynamic Range should be implemented for ref level (0dBFS) for 105dB/115dB-(LFE) peaks. For those who prefer to listen at more reasonable SPL's, lower the output gain. This does not change the calibration method.

P.S.: It would be perceived as twice as loud, not 10 times as loud, calibrating to 85dB opposed to 75dB

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

a3plew -- Your numbers are incorrect. A 3dB (actually 3.01dB) increase in sound level is a doubling of the sound power (and apparent loudness). A 10dB change is an increase of 10 times the apparent loudness and sound power. The equation is dB = 10 x log (Power2 / Power1) - base 10 logarithms.



No, his numbers are correct.

1dB is the smallest perceivable change.

3dB is more noticable but not a significant perceivable change. There will be variables pending the source, and current SPL.

6dB is a very noticable change.

10dB is perceived as twice as loud.

+3dB is a doubling of SPL/acoustical energy. This is not a doubling of perceived loudness.

+6 dB is a doubling of electric voltage thus current. Quadrupling of Power.

SPL at double distance (far field, no reflections) = a loss of 6dB.

If we double the number of speakers we will increase the SPL by 3dB, up until we reach +6dB (phase cancellation).

Ex.: Speakers rated at 88dB 1w/1w yield the following @ 1m:

88dB/1w
91dB/2w
94dB/4w
97dB/8w
100dB/16w
103dB/32w
106dB/64w
109dB/112w

A 3dB increase from 88dB to 91dB requires a doubling of power.

A 6dB increase from 88dB to 94dB would require a quadrupling of power.

A 10db increase from 88dB to 98dBdB would require 10x power. Perceived as twice as loud

To get this change in dB Multiply starting power by:
1dB x 1.25
2dB x 1.6
3dB x 2.0
4dB x 2.5
5dB x 3.15
6dB x 4.0
7dB x 5.0
8dB x 6.3
9dB x 8.0
10dB x 10.0
post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbunnysoulja View Post

--- SNIP ---
A 3dB increase from 88dB to 91dB requires a doubling of power.

A 6dB increase from 88dB to 94dB would require a quadrupling of power.

A 10db increase from 88dB to 98dBdB would require 10x power. Perceived as twice as loud

To get this change in dB Multiply starting power by:
1dB x 1.25
2dB x 1.6
3dB x 2.0
4dB x 2.5
5dB x 3.15
6dB x 4.0
7dB x 5.0
8dB x 6.3
9dB x 8.0
10dB x 10.0

These numbers are correct and contradict your other statements. The 88dB sensitivity rating of the speaker you quoted is at 1' from the speaker and not at the listening position. 85dB is 10dB more than 75dB and is, therefore, 10 times the output power. The logs (dB) is additive, power requirements multiply. Since our ears hear logarithmically, a 3dB increase in sound pressure is heard as twice as loud.
post #17 of 25
Quote:


BTW, 145dB is the sound level on the top of an Atlas rocket and would destroy your hearing in under 5 minutes. An actual 120db, at your ears, is the threshold of pain.

Only at the certain frequencies. 120db is the bass region 60-20htz shouldn't create any pain.
post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

These numbers are correct and contradict your other statements. The 88dB sensitivity rating of the speaker you quoted is at 1' from the speaker and not at the listening position. 85dB is 10dB more than 75dB and is, therefore, 10 times the output power. The logs (dB) is additive, power requirements multiply. Since our ears hear logarithmically, a 3dB increase in sound pressure is heard as twice as loud.

Sorry to disagree yet again.

To keep it simple, please find me 1 article agreeing with you.

Here are a few to back my statement that 10x power, 10db is required for a doubling of perceived loudness:
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/how...eloudness.html
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0907/
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/489484.html
http://www.videomaker.com/article/2323/
http://www.audiojunction.com.au/Page...0Articles.html
http://www.discjockey101.com/apr2004.html
post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

These numbers are correct and contradict your other statements. The 88dB sensitivity rating of the speaker you quoted is at 1' from the speaker and not at the listening position. 85dB is 10dB more than 75dB and is, therefore, 10 times the output power. The logs (dB) is additive, power requirements multiply. Since our ears hear logarithmically, a 3dB increase in sound pressure is heard as twice as loud.

Isn't it 1 meter and not 1 foot?
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe741 View Post

Isn't it 1 meter and not 1 foot?

Yes.
post #21 of 25
Joe741 -- My bad - it is 1 meter and not 1 foot.

gunbunnysoulja -- Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel for starters. I read a number of your referenced links (and about half of them are duplicates of an identical article in a different reference).

I do see what you are talking about = perceived loudness vs. measured sound power. This is a function of the response of the human ear (psychoacoustics), and not the measured power levels (which I was referring to). The way in which you presented it was not very clear.

The best reference, to back up your point is the chart in: http://www.audiojunction.com.au/Page...0Articles.html. This article is duplicated in the "gcaudio" link.

You have apparently done more research into the perception of the human ear, than I have. But your references to perceived power and measured power should be separated more distinctly. Or just refer to one of the articles. Don't confuse the issue with a plethora of numbers, which can be misleading.

BTW, I found the article quoted in http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/489484.html to be very interesting. It is a very good illustration of the effect of the listening room acoustics on the listening experience.

gooki -- The frequency range on top of the Atlas is 5Hz to 250Hz (average power level) - at least that was the range specified for testing.
post #22 of 25
Sorry for the confusion.

I agree, "The Decibel (dB) and the Violin/Piano Recital" is a great article.
post #23 of 25
Here is a link to Crown's Power required calculator

http://www.crownaudio.com/apps_htm/d...ct-pwr-req.htm

It is a reasonable estimate of what the required power will be for the speaker sensitivity and desired listening levels for the distances required.
post #24 of 25
what volume would you ran 35-50WPC into an 88Db speaker? I usually sit 6 feet from the speakers
post #25 of 25
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
I like to use this calculator for power requirements.
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