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The Official Sherwood Newcastle R-972 With Trinnov Optimizer Thread - Page 37

post #1081 of 1103
11/2/09 at 10:30am
"That the Sherwood factory/technical team builds 1000s' & 1000's of AVRs for Best Buy, Denon, Harman/Kardon, Marantz and Pioneer...."

"Inkel Corporation based in Korea has a long history of building AVRs for the major Japanese brands..."

So it's not Sherwood building all those AVR's, it's Inkel and they also build them for Sherwood - correct?
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post #1082 of 1103
11/2/09 at 10:45am
Inkel is Sherwood America's parent company.

Jeff
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post #1083 of 1103
11/2/09 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdS View Post

Shouldn't the question be "Whom is designing the Sherwood AVR's?", vs. who is the manufacturer. I've no doubt that the Sherwood factory is capable of turning out a solid, quality product with respect to manufacturing. But I'm guessing that Denon, Yamaha, etc. perform their AVR design in-house then transition the build to a capable manufacturing facility. Does Sherwood have the in-house capability to design their own AVR's, are they subcontracting the design out, and if so to whom? It seems to be design and engineering issues that are driving the R-972 release more so than manufacturing.

Inkel Corp has a significant pool of capable, experienced AVR design engineers in Korea...

Just my $0.015...
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post #1084 of 1103
11/4/09 at 7:30am
Anyone with the 972??

Please give a recap of opinions; Pro & Con.
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post #1085 of 1103
11/4/09 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desmo888 View Post

Anyone with the 972??

Please give a recap of opinions; Pro & Con.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1179978
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post #1086 of 1103
11/23/09 at 11:37am
WOW.

I'm not going to crap in the user thread, but I wanted to express my complete disgust after reading Noah's latest post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post17587651

You can read in this thread that I am not a Sherwood hater. I've tried to give Sherwood the benefit of the doubt. But no more. I'll be looking to pick up an Integra in the next couple of months.

Jeff, I hope you read this. That is the whole point of my post.

I find it totally unacceptable that you sent Noah three different firmwares for different bass trim levels. That is the most idiotic, half-ass work around that I've ever seen (maybe I don't get out enough). And the fact that the receiver still has other issues is just not acceptable.

I don't know why or how these problems exist, but the room correction might as well be turned off and the unit sold without it. Free is probably the only price I'm willing to pay.

Sorry that I had to vent. Hopefully, I misread something in Noah's post. If so, I'll edit my response.

Noah must have a much better temperment for dealing with things like this than I. My hat is off to him. Good luck Noah.
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post #1087 of 1103
11/23/09 at 11:47am
K, IMO you're not out of line. People have been waiting 3 yrs and the few people that have a 972 are being used as beta testers. This was the same thing that happened with the P-965 users. It's totally not acceptable. Trinnov isn't panning out to be anything great and now there are other choices on the market like the new Integra DTC 40.1 receiver and DHC 40.1 pre/pro and even the Emotiva is starting to ship supposedly by the end of the month. Sherwood has missed the boat and allowed others to surpass them in features. Trinnov may be great, but if the receiver doesn't work and you have to deal witih all the firmware patch it's not worth. No use paying $1800 to be a beta tester.
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post #1088 of 1103
11/23/09 at 12:49pm
I'm not a happy camper and don't mean to defend Shewood, but everything you gus are saying has been said before and seems to ignore this:

"Update done and seems to have addressed the issues, but I can't get lossless audio so can't say much."

You may not have noticed, but I wasn't getting down on them for the setup problems, just asking for help.

I've had similar problems w/my last 3 receivers, it's just that this manual is so bad.
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post #1089 of 1103
11/23/09 at 1:27pm
Noah,
I saw that. It made me optimistic. But then I saw that they sent you three different firmwares with three different bass trim levels. This seemed really half-assed. That is where most of my outrage lies.

I guess it goes back to the with Trinnov turned on, you shouldn't be messing with the bass levels. Turn Trinnov on and turn off all options to tweak. Okay, I get that theory. But then the product isn't for me. I might as well just keep using my 3-yr old Pioneer, since I'm not using the room correction and have an external amp.

That is where I'm coming from. I don't care about them missing deadlines or other junk, that is no skin off my nose. I care about how it performs.
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post #1090 of 1103
11/23/09 at 1:35pm
"But then I saw that they sent you three different firmwares with three different bass trim levels. This seemed really half-assed. That is where most of my outrage lies."

OK, though I don't see the point in wasting outrage on something so inconsequential; as I pointed out to Jeff, most of us can do that a lot easier w/our sub level controls.

"I guess it goes back to the with Trinnov turned on, you shouldn't be messing with the bass levels. Turn Trinnov on and turn off all options to tweak."

That's worth getting upset about, and I am, though more for the treble than the bass.

BTW, I forgot to say I appreciate you guys keeping this out of the users thread.
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post #1091 of 1103
11/23/09 at 3:27pm
But it shows a lack of testing on SN part and they are using people as beta tester without their knowlede. Integra just released their DHC 40.1 pre/pr and people in that thread are posting how great it sounds and that they aren't experiencing any problems. Why in the world do Sherwood customers go through all the hassle when others release and things works as they should.
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post #1092 of 1103
12/2/09 at 7:55am
Shame. Been on the Denon train for a few years now, since the first (second?) delay of this unit WAY back when. Just discovered this thread.
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post #1093 of 1103
1/20/10 at 12:41pm
I don't think it's a question of availability, it's that people are gunshy of buying them.
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post #1094 of 1103
3/17/10 at 5:56am
Outlaw pulled the plug on their own version of the Sherwood R972 because of ongoing problems with the unit and its development by Sherwoods mother Inkel. Quite unusual that a company speaks up on an issue like this.
But they have been quite clear about the problems and that they waited to long to drop it and restart completely with their own development.

I still think (unfortunately) that one should stay away from this as long as those ongoing problems haven't been resolved. To bad for Trinnov too. The competitions next generation AVRs are showing up already and the R972 looks already somewhat dated by its specs...


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post18297981
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post #1095 of 1103
3/17/10 at 9:16am
I saw that. Can't really blame them though. The 972 has been a disaster, years behind schedule, outdated, and full of bugs. Outlaw really went out of their way to explain the situation and make an apology. The way they handled the situation will go a long way towards how they are viewed for future buyers.
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post #1096 of 1103
2/25/13 at 7:55am
How good is Trinnov with in ceiling speakers?
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post #1097 of 1103
2/25/13 at 9:46am
Good question.

In any case, getting a successful setup could be difficult to impossible unless they have aimable tweeters.
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post #1098 of 1103
2/26/13 at 10:30am
Let's separate Trinnov into two separate functions: equalization and remapping.

With ceiling speakers there is no issue with the equalization function. Trinnov will hear all of the in-ceiling speakers and calculate the appropriate filters to synchronize first arrival time and to equalize, at least within its capability, frequency and time response for each channel. In my opinion, Trinnov's EQ function is good enough that EQ, alone, will offer a large sonic improvement in the accuracy of the sound.

If Trinnov receives an unambiguous signal from each speaker at around 5kHz, (which is where Noah's suggestion of "aimable" tweeters comes into play), it can locate the speaker in 3 dimensions and then has the ability to "re-map" the sound stage--to change the apparent location of the sound. There are limitations. Trinnov cannot lower the apparent soundstage to below the level of the lowest speaker, (or raise it above the level of the highest speaker) so if all of your speakers are in the ceiling, Trinnov cannot lower the image However, if you were to put your center speaker below the display screen with your L/R speakers still in the ceiling, Trinnov can offer a completely stable center channel image centered on the screen. You would still face a panning discontinuity where an image moving from left to right would appear high on the left, move lower into the center of the tv and then climb to the ceiling on the right. Whether this is preferable to having all information at ceiling level would depend, IMO, on the listener.

Jeff
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post #1099 of 1103
2/26/13 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post


1. With ceiling speakers there is no issue with the equalization function...

2. If Trinnov receives an unambiguous signal from each speaker at around 5kHz, (which is where Noah's suggestion of "aimable" tweeters comes into play), it can locate the speaker in 3 dimension...

Jeff,

I haven't done a setup in quite some time, but IIRC 2) is necessary for a speaker to be found and if it isn't there will be no EQ for it.
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post #1100 of 1103
2/27/13 at 5:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Let's separate Trinnov into two separate functions: equalization and remapping.

With ceiling speakers there is no issue with the equalization function. Trinnov will hear all of the in-ceiling speakers and calculate the appropriate filters to synchronize first arrival time and to equalize, at least within its capability, frequency and time response for each channel. In my opinion, Trinnov's EQ function is good enough that EQ, alone, will offer a large sonic improvement in the accuracy of the sound.

If Trinnov receives an unambiguous signal from each speaker at around 5kHz, (which is where Noah's suggestion of "aimable" tweeters comes into play), it can locate the speaker in 3 dimensions and then has the ability to "re-map" the sound stage--to change the apparent location of the sound. There are limitations. Trinnov cannot lower the apparent soundstage to below the level of the lowest speaker, (or raise it above the level of the highest speaker) so if all of your speakers are in the ceiling, Trinnov cannot lower the image However, if you were to put your center speaker below the display screen with your L/R speakers still in the ceiling, Trinnov can offer a completely stable center channel image centered on the screen. You would still face a panning discontinuity where an image moving from left to right would appear high on the left, move lower into the center of the tv and then climb to the ceiling on the right. Whether this is preferable to having all information at ceiling level would depend, IMO, on the listener.

Jeff

I hear that with Trinnov you can't hear the sound coming out of the speakers unless you get up close because of the remapping. Is this so?
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post #1101 of 1103
2/27/13 at 8:46am
Noah:

Let's distinguish between a speaker being "heard" and a speaker being "found". Trinnov in the R-972 has no problem "hearing" all of the speakers. This is easily accomplished within the first 3 tone bursts and all of the information necessary to time delay and equalize the speaker is captured in the first 3 bursts. "Finding" the speaker is harder. If there is an unambiguous signal from the speaker with a wavelength of about 3", then Trinnov can locate the speaker in 3 dimensions and remapping is possible. This is a separate function in Trinnov as can be verified via the user selectable parameters. This includes Delay, Level, EQ, 2D and 3D remapping. Only the latter two require "found" speakers.

Asere:

Certainly the speakers can be heard from anywhere in the room whether remapping is engaged or not. Otherwise, having a receiver would be pointless. When listeners say the speakers have disappeared with remapping engaged I believe they mean the speakers are no longer hearable as a discrete source. Instead it now seems as if the entire wall is playing.

Jeff
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post #1102 of 1103
2/27/13 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Noah:

Let's distinguish between a speaker being "heard" and a speaker being "found". Trinnov in the R-972 has no problem "hearing" all of the speakers. This is easily accomplished within the first 3 tone bursts and all of the information necessary to time delay and equalize the speaker is captured in the first 3 bursts. "Finding" the speaker is harder. If there is an unambiguous signal from the speaker with a wavelength of about 3", then Trinnov can locate the speaker in 3 dimensions and remapping is possible. This is a separate function in Trinnov as can be verified via the user selectable parameters. This includes Delay, Level, EQ, 2D and 3D remapping. Only the latter two require "found" speakers.

Asere:

Certainly the speakers can be heard from anywhere in the room whether remapping is engaged or not. Otherwise, having a receiver would be pointless. When listeners say the speakers have disappeared with remapping engaged I believe they mean the speakers are no longer hearable as a discrete source. Instead it now seems as if the entire wall is playing.

Jeff


I understand the sound has to of course come out of the speaker I wondering how it works because with Audyssey you hear the sound just out of the speakers from any distance. I see what you mean since it is 3d remapping while the sound comes out of the speakers the remapping disguises where its really coming from. That's neat!!! I have Audyssey and might make a leap to Trinnov!

Can someone please send me a link for the manual so I can read how to set up Trinnov?
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post #1103 of 1103
2/28/13 at 5:10am
With the Trinnov does bass start to diminish when you turn the volume level down?
Edited by asere - 4/11/13 at 6:24am
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The Official Sherwood Newcastle R-972 With Trinnov Optimizer Thread