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So what is your take on burn in these days - Page 2

post #31 of 67
10/13/08 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

While new PDPs employ many techniques that help to protect the integrity of the display, if IR/BI is just a myth, why does AVSF feel compelled to maintain the Master Burn-In/IR/Break In Thread?

HD DVD format is dead with no firmware updates, nor new releases ever hitting the scene, why do they still have multiple formats regarding the tech?

CRT's, are no longer being manufactured, why do the forums still exist?

Let me answer this for you, its for those seeking knowledge of said tech, or issues that may have arisen, but are new to those individuals. It is there for educational purposes, which if anyone who had a clue, or bothered to read them, would see that the Master BI/IR thread is just that.

The only reports I have encountered of IR/BI on plasmas, are those with brands like Vizio, Insignia, etc. That, or a case of severe abuse such as a display with a static image for over 6months, or a 2 week gaming binge on a new display.
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post #32 of 67
10/13/08 at 3:18pm
i own the insignia 42" plasma from last yr and it is actually an lg 42pc3d which i have confirmed by going into the service menu. And the newer 50" insignia has a samsung panel. So while some tv's are made poorly and cheaply, some insignia plasmas are not. As far as burn in on my set goes. I get IR ONLY when i play tetris on xbox for more than 30 minutes, but it wipes away in about 2 minutes.
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post #33 of 67
10/14/08 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

The only reports I have encountered of IR/BI on plasmas, are those with brands like Vizio, Insignia, etc. That, or a case of severe abuse such as a display with a static image for over 6months, or a 2 week gaming binge on a new display.

Then we agree that IR/BI is possible and this risk can be minimized or eliminated if individuals will read & follow their PDPs instruction guide.
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post #34 of 67
10/14/08 at 4:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Then we agree that IR/BI is possible and this risk can be minimized or eliminated if individuals will read & follow their PDPs instruction guide.

the risk can also be further reduced by running the break-in DVD for the first 200 hours.
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post #35 of 67
10/14/08 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by plmn View Post

This does nothing for uneven wear. As I stated, I'm not concerned about IR, which is what you are talking about here. But uneven wear is real, there have been several complaints here about it on older TVs. The only dispute is how long it will take with the longer lifespans of today's plasmas. I think it has been established that a two-year old TV with normal use should not experience a problem.

If anybody has any evidence to show uneven wear can no longer happen, or will take so long it doesn't matter, just post it, I'd love to see it.

That's exactly why I bought an LCD; I don't watch much full-screen content. A handful of QAM channels and the 360, but the bulk of my usage (70% or more) is either 4:3 or letterboxed.

Is my worry misplaced? Because I would have prefered to buy a plasma.
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post #36 of 67
10/14/08 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-star View Post

the risk can also be further reduced by running the break-in DVD for the first 200 hours.

I don't see anything regarding the use of the break-in DVD in my Panasonic/Pioneer owner's manual nor have any professional calibrators gone on record recommending this method.
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post #37 of 67
10/14/08 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

I don't see anything regarding the use of the break-in DVD in my Panasonic/Pioneer owner's manual nor have any professional calibrators gone on record recommending this method.

that's b/c its not a required step, but it will speed up the phosphor aging process and reduce the risk of IR/burn-in during those first critical few hundred hours.

certain practices with one's electronics need not be explicitly stated by the manufacturer nor endorsed by a "professional" to have merit.
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post #38 of 67
10/14/08 at 10:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

While new PDPs employ many techniques that help to protect the integrity of the display, if IR/BI is just a myth, why does AVSF feel compelled to maintain the Master Burn-In/IR/Break In Thread?

Burn -in is not a myth.
It can and has happened on plasma's and LCD's.

The myth that keeps getting pushed is that it happens from normal use.

Now lets define "normal use".

With todays quality plasma's, If you use the anti-burn-in features (orbitor/pixel shifter) built into the TV, You won't get burn-in unless you do something really really stupid! (example: like pause a video game and then go on vacation.)

With todays top-end plasma's you can play hours and hours of Video games with HUDs, watch hours and hours of sports with tickers, and at worse case you might get a little I.R. (But I still haven't got any I.R. and I do both excessively)

You can also watch hours and hours of widescreen/standardDef with black bars and not have to worry about uneven wear.

Now, If all you watch is standard def with black bars on the side for months on end, you might get some uneven wear. But IT will take a very long time (maybe even a year).
But if you plan on watching nothing but standard Def, then IMO you should not have even bought a HD plasma.

I have only seen one case of Burn-in on a Kuro plasma. And this was When someone bought a floor model that had been showing the same channel for 6 months and the orbitor was turned off.

The bottom line is just turn on the pixel shifter/orbitor like it is reccomended and watch TV like you normally would and you do not have to worry about Burn-in or uneven wear.
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post #39 of 67
10/15/08 at 4:26am
Most PDP owners cannot afford a Kuro display. If your viewing habits lean primarily towards gaming, watching 4:3 content or PC monitor use... LCD is the better alternative.
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post #40 of 67
10/15/08 at 6:15am
That advice does not apply only to one specific brand, of course. People worry about burn-in not based on any evidence or first-hand experience but on hand-me-down rumors and a need to believe that there has to be some way of babying their expensive new possession.

It's no different than the guys who gets 200,000 trouble-free miles out of their Honda Civic and tell everyone who will listen that it's because they changed the oil every 2,500 miles and didn't go over 3,000rpm for the first month they owned the car. It makes no difference that another guy down the street drove the heck out of his from Day One and "only" did the recommended maintenance intervals yet also got 200,000 miles. The silly advice gets passed down forever.

Everyone around here seems to know somebody who saw a guy's plasma TV that had terrible burn-in after he had owned it for a couple months. Not much in the way of first-hand experience except the occasional Torch Mode Demo Loop floor model or similar but that doesn't stop the belief. And hey, since those guys with the Burn-In DVD and dim settings for the first month and stretch mode and whatnot don't get burn-in it must be because of their cargo-cult precautions and not just the simple truth that current-model plasma television don't do burn-in.

Not to mention the panic message when a guy plays a video game for 8 hours on his new plasma and notices 30 seconds after he quits that the display is retaining a hint of the video-game image. He goes online and posts that the sky is falling but then never seems to follow-up the next day when he sees it has faded away overnight...
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post #41 of 67
10/15/08 at 4:03pm
I've had my Panasonic P
z800U for 4 months now and I have noticed no IR. I've watched letterbox movies, had station logos, and news tickers. Zip, nada. I did follows break in for first 150 hours though
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post #42 of 67
10/16/08 at 6:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

That advice does not apply only to one specific brand, of course. People worry about burn-in not based on any evidence or first-hand experience but on hand-me-down rumors and a need to believe that there has to be some way of babying their expensive new possession.

Actually, many people, like myself, did experience burn in on old CRT-based sets we owned, and saw for ourselves the burn in on plasma display models, which was quite common a few years back. I also personally saw many plasmas in airport car rental terminal (DFW) completly ruined by burn-in when many people were starting to claim that was by then impossible.

I think some people have short memories. They believe modern technology has fixed all long-term faults inherent to itself with no basis for that belief other than their experience with a 1 or 2 year old TV. If you only plan on keeping your TV 2-3 years, then I agree you don't need to concern yourself. But TVs are considered durable goods and most consumers keep them for a pretty long time. It is years down the road when these problems will show up IF people don't follow basic manufacturer-recommended guidelines.

I think advice stating manufacturer recommendations should be largely dismissed is irresponsible, but there is a lot of such advice given out here.
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post #43 of 67
10/16/08 at 6:41am
you guys do worry too much about this: today's plasma panels are much more resistant to burn-in than just a few years ago [image retention is temporary and characteristic of plasma technology]

Here are some easier guidelines I would suggest you consider: and these are strictly my suggestions: others will still argue the point:

-New plasma displays are most susceptible to burn-in and IR [image retention] during the first 200 or so hours of use: during that time be sure you run full screen source material with no static scenes or logos as much as possible

-We used to suggest that plasma displays be adjusted out of 'torch mode' but today's displays are usually adjusted pretty well out of the box so this may not be an issue anymore

-I never used a break in DVD and I see no need for one

-as in the link to the Master Burn-In thread: just use common sense and you should be fine
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post #44 of 67
10/16/08 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

While new PDPs employ many techniques that help to protect the integrity of the display, if IR/BI is just a myth, why does AVSF feel compelled to maintain the Master Burn-In/IR/Break In Thread?

please give it a rest: this is AVS

we continue to maintain the thread because it is still one of the most common questions posted
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post #45 of 67
10/16/08 at 6:44am
Yes I have also seen commerical displays, plasma and CRT, with burned in fixed images after a few months or years of 24x7 display of the exact same fields of computer-generated information. That has IMO zero bearing on a television used at home to watch television. And there was no DVD that could be played or settings used during the first 100 hours or 250 hours or whatever that would have an effect on an airport departures board that runs for thousands of hours nonstop with one unvarying pattern on it.

And I'm not talking about 5+ years ago either. I'm saying that if you go buy a plasma television today, plug it in, take it out of torch mode and use it to watch television every day then burn-in is so far down the list of things to worry about as makes no difference. That television is far more likely to be stolen or hit by lightning or experience a random power-supply failure or have the glass shelf it's sitting on shatter or be toppled in an earthquake.

So I am certainly not claiming that a plasma display is metaphysically safe from getting an image burned into it. Hang it in an airport terminal or play the same video game eight hours a day or run it in torch mode around the clock and it seems entirely possible you'll eventually have a problem. I'm talking about a television being used as a television under normal (home) conditions. And if you're doing the stuff that's going to ruin your plasma display, there's no magic DVD that can inoculate it against damage while it's still a baby.
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post #46 of 67
10/16/08 at 8:31am
To minimize IR and BI on a NEWLY purchased plasma TV please follow these recommendations to properly break in your set:


1. If your set has the 'scrolling' capability, raise up your contrast and brightness to 80 or more and leave it run throughout the day. Once you hit ~150 hours your plasma is well broken into.

2. If your set has the 'white screen' capability, raise up your contrast and brightness to 80 or more and leave it run throughout the day. Once you hit ~150 hours your plasma is well broken into.

3. If you have a copy of the 'break in dvd', raise up your contrast and brightness to 80 or more and leave it run throughout the day. Once you hit ~150 hours your plasma is well broken into.

4. If you refuse to do any one of the above methods then watch FULL SCREEN CONTECT ONLY until you have reached the ~150 hours.

Surely you will have people who will say, options 1 - 3 are not necessary because by watching full screen content alone will give the same result. That is true, but notice that each option specifies to leave it run throughout the course of the day. Most of us work and are not home during the day. Within a week or so your set will be well broken into and you will then be able to use the Plasma as you wish. Options 1 - 3 are meant for a quick way to beak into your set.

Please note the word above 'minimize'. IR and BI will always be a lurking predator in the background, if you abuse the plasma it will certainly let you know it's been abused.

Also note the approximate hours for proper break in, I've referenced 150 hours, some will say 100 hours, and some will say 200 hours. I put 150 hours to be the middle man...

Happy TV watching and or gaming!!
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post #47 of 67
10/16/08 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RYAXIN View Post

To minimize IR and BI on a NEWLY purchased plasma TV please follow these recommendations to properly break in your set:


1. If your set has the 'scrolling' capability, raise up your contrast and brightness to 80 or more and leave it run throughout the day. Once you hit ~150 hours your plasma is well broken into.

2. If your set has the 'white screen' capability, raise up your contrast and brightness to 80 or more and leave it run throughout the day. Once you hit ~150 hours your plasma is well broken into.

3. If you have a copy of the 'break in dvd', raise up your contrast and brightness to 80 or more and leave it run throughout the day. Once you hit ~150 hours your plasma is well broken into.

4. If you refuse to do any one of the above methods then watch FULL SCREEN CONTECT ONLY until you have reached the ~150 hours.

Surely you will have people who will say, options 1 - 3 are not necessary because by watching full screen content alone will give the same result. That is true, but notice that each option specifies to leave it run throughout the course of the day. Most of us work and are not home during the day. Within a week or so your set will be well broken into and you will then be able to use the Plasma as you wish. Options 1 - 3 are meant for a quick way to beak into your set.

Please note the word above 'minimize'. IR and BI will always be a lurking predator in the background, if you abuse the plasma it will certainly let you know it's been abused.

Also note the approximate hours for proper break in, I've referenced 150 hours, some will say 100 hours, and some will say 200 hours. I put 150 hours to be the middle man...

Happy TV watching and or gaming!!


Forgot to mention, avoid static images as much as you can during the break in period.
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post #48 of 67
10/16/08 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RYAXIN View Post

To minimize IR and BI on a NEWLY purchased plasma TV please follow these recommendations to properly break in your set:


1. If your set has the 'scrolling' capability, raise up your contrast and brightness to 80 or more and leave it run throughout the day. Once you hit ~150 hours your plasma is well broken into.

2. If your set has the 'white screen' capability, raise up your contrast and brightness to 80 or more and leave it run throughout the day. Once you hit ~150 hours your plasma is well broken into.

3. If you have a copy of the 'break in dvd', raise up your contrast and brightness to 80 or more and leave it run throughout the day. Once you hit ~150 hours your plasma is well broken into.

4. If you refuse to do any one of the above methods then watch FULL SCREEN CONTECT ONLY until you have reached the ~150 hours.

Surely you will have people who will say, options 1 - 3 are not necessary because by watching full screen content alone will give the same result. That is true, but notice that each option specifies to leave it run throughout the course of the day. Most of us work and are not home during the day. Within a week or so your set will be well broken into and you will then be able to use the Plasma as you wish. Options 1 - 3 are meant for a quick way to beak into your set.

Please note the word above 'minimize'. IR and BI will always be a lurking predator in the background, if you abuse the plasma it will certainly let you know it's been abused.

Also note the approximate hours for proper break in, I've referenced 150 hours, some will say 100 hours, and some will say 200 hours. I put 150 hours to be the middle man...

Happy TV watching and or gaming!!

While I completely agree this is a good thing to do if it makes you feel better, gives you peace of mind, or you want to calibrate the display later on, I personally plan on doing none of the above with my 141 (whenever it comes ) I also advised my brother not to do anything of the sort with his 5020. He's even set it to Dynamic and left it there (yikes!!)
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post #49 of 67
10/16/08 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

While I completely agree this is a good thing to do if it makes you feel better, gives you peace of mind, or you want to calibrate the display later on, I personally plan on doing none of the above with my 141 (whenever it comes ) I also advised my brother not to do anything of the sort with his 5020. He's even set it to Dynamic and left it there (yikes!!)

While there is nothing wrong with that, I would not recommend leaving the set on any sort of static image for a long period of time, especially in Dynamic mode

Clearly many users with new sets have experienced BI, let alone IR due to abuse from the start.
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post #50 of 67
10/16/08 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RYAXIN View Post

Clearly many users with new sets have experienced BI

I would love to question that statement but I don't want to open a can worms. After all it is only my opinion And IMO the fear, the questions, most of the BI reports, and even the manurfacturers stance is mostly due to this fact: Phosphor burn in and plasma cell image retention (both short and long) look the same, and are the same to the consumer. Yet the occurance probability of phosphor BI is magnitudes lower.
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post #51 of 67
10/16/08 at 11:35am
If I believed that one-tenth of the dire warnings put forward on this forum were true I'd have certainly never bought a plasma TV. Then again I wouldn't have bought the CRT that we used for six years before that or the AVR that I'll be using tonight or that matter I'd have never bought a Blu-Ray player. Seriously, people like my parents or my grandmother or my sister's family or any of my in-laws would all have burned-in televisions in very short order if this stuff were a normal occurance. Are we supposed to believe that the twenty million people with large televisions who haven't been enlightened as to "break-in periods" and "break-in DVD's" are just not noticing that their TV's were ruined within a matter of months?

What's that old song say? Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear...
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post #52 of 67
10/16/08 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

If I believed that one-tenth of the dire warnings put forward on this forum were true I'd have certainly never bought a plasma TV. Then again I wouldn't have bought the CRT that we used for six years before that or the AVR that I'll be using tonight or that matter I'd have never bought a Blu-Ray player. Seriously, people like my parents or my grandmother or my sister's family or any of my in-laws would all have burned-in televisions in very short order if this stuff were a normal occurance. Are we supposed to believe that the twenty million people with large televisions who haven't been enlightened as to "break-in periods" and "break-in DVD's" are just not noticing that their TV's were ruined within a matter of months?

What's that old song say? Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear...

bingo... give that man a cigar...
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post #53 of 67
10/16/08 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

If I believed that one-tenth of the dire warnings put forward on this forum were true I'd have certainly never bought a plasma TV. Then again I wouldn't have bought the CRT that we used for six years before that or the AVR that I'll be using tonight or that matter I'd have never bought a Blu-Ray player. Seriously, people like my parents or my grandmother or my sister's family or any of my in-laws would all have burned-in televisions in very short order if this stuff were a normal occurance. Are we supposed to believe that the twenty million people with large televisions who haven't been enlightened as to "break-in periods" and "break-in DVD's" are just not noticing that their TV's were ruined within a matter of months?

What's that old song say? Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear...

I doubt your parents, in-laws or grandmother play video games for hours & hours with their PDPs and I guess you never had the misfortune to buy a Panasonic CT-36HL42 or a Samsung BD-UP5000. The $2200 I wasted on those product failures is enough to make me gun shy.

BTW... check out Onkyo's TX-NR905... it's well documented "heat issues" may make you re-evaluate the idea of using a video up-converting AVR.
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post #54 of 67
10/16/08 at 12:29pm
I know there are lemon products out there and that's one of the reasons for forums like this one. But over the several years I've been participating (on and off) here it sure seems that the endlessly repeated chorus of silly notions is starting to make it hard to be patient enough to sift through for real-world feedback and advice. It's the "boy who cried wolf" problem.

My Onkyo is an inexpensive TX-SR606 in which I had good confidence because it was replacing a totally reliable and excellent TX-SR505. But I'm glad I had that couple years experience with the '505 because honestly a casual reader or newcomer to this forum would have been convinced that it would overheat horribly and hum every time you turn the volume up. Of course it does none of those things although all the dire warnings made me glad to be buying it locally where a return would be simple if it turned out to be a lemon after all. But it wasn't.

I also do not play video games for hours on end and I don't have any need for more elaborate AVR's for upconversion and so forth. That's my point exactly. The vast majority of people who buy televisions buy them to...well, to watch television. Sure a lot of folks also have video games and whatnot but I'm not inclined to believe that all "100 hour" this or that makes any difference in whether a video game damages a plasma display. There are things you can do to damage a display and maybe you can nibble around at the margins to make that slightly more or less damaging but the notion of spending days or weeks in some elaborate ritual to render your new TV immune to damage from abuse is specious.
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post #55 of 67
10/16/08 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

I know there are lemon products out there and that's one of the reasons for forums like this one. But over the several years I've been participating (on and off) here it sure seems that the endlessly repeated chorus of silly notions is starting to make it hard to be patient enough to sift through for real-world feedback and advice. It's the "boy who cried wolf" problem.

My Onkyo is an inexpensive TX-SR606 in which I had good confidence because it was replacing a totally reliable and excellent TX-SR505. But I'm glad I had that couple years experience with the '505 because honestly a casual reader or newcomer to this forum would have been convinced that it would overheat horribly and hum every time you turn the volume up. Of course it does none of those things although all the dire warnings made me glad to be buying it locally where a return would be simple if it turned out to be a lemon after all. But it wasn't.

I also do not play video games for hours on end and I don't have any need for more elaborate AVR's for upconversion and so forth. That's my point exactly. The vast majority of people who buy televisions buy them to...well, to watch television. Sure a lot of folks also have video games and whatnot but I'm not inclined to believe that all "100 hour" this or that makes any difference in whether a video game damages a plasma display. There are things you can do to damage a display and maybe you can nibble around at the margins to make that slightly more or less damaging but the notion of spending days or weeks in some elaborate ritual to render your new TV immune to damage from abuse is specious.

Then I guess all those members who do claim to have BI are all imagining or hallucinating these BI images.

My brother has a Pioneer (2 months old) with a BI image, he's not a gamer of any sort but the constant watching of CNN (logo) did the trick.

As some other member had quoted in another thread, we tend to read up on the problems we experience and omit mentioning the good of what we have....this is what these forums tend to accomplish, if you have a problem/issue, post it so we can help you out.

For those who do have BI images, will seek advice/help from this thread or others....clearly you've never experienced BI so you automaticaly assume it is a non issue, at least for your set, which is a good thing.
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post #56 of 67
10/16/08 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RYAXIN View Post

For those who do have BI images, will seek advice/help from this thread or others....clearly you've never experienced BI so you automaticaly assume it is a non issue, at least for your set, which is a good thing.

Classic example of what I was trying to say. And how do you know your brother has phosphor burn-in? Because you see a residual image of CNN? This is the problem (please re-read the last two sentences in post # 50). If your brother truly has burn-in then the CNN image is permanent.
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post #57 of 67
10/16/08 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama127 View Post

My take is that on modern plasmas (made in the last 2-3 years or even before) you would have to try very hard and do something incredibly stupid to get permanent burn-in.

And you'd be dead wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama127 View Post

I'll go out on a limb and say that if you have a newer plasma that has developed burn-in (not IR) then it was probably defective out of the box.

Probably. I know mine was. But try getting Pioneer to believe it and replace your panel.
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post #58 of 67
10/16/08 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Classic example of what I was trying to say. And how do you know your brother has phosphor burn-in? Because you see a residual image of CNN? This is the problem (please re-read the last two sentences in post # 50). If your brother truly has burn-in then the CNN image is permanent.

I've had IR and so has my brother. The worst IR I have had has gone away after a day or two. The CNN logo is there to stay no matter what he does. It has not even ever so slightly gotten any better. In what category would one put this?

A co-worker of mine has a Pioneer 50" (purchased last year) and his set has had BI for several months now. What would we classify that under? We can not possibly rule out BI when each and every manual of any plasma (at least from the ones I know of) clearly state that if you abuse the set you will have permanent damage.

On my manual it states the following: 'A still image displayed too long may cause permanent damage to the PDP Panel.'
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post #59 of 67
10/16/08 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RYAXIN View Post

I've had IR and so has my brother. The worst IR I have had has gone away after a day or two. The CNN logo is there to stay no matter what he does. It has not even ever so slightly gotten any better. In what category would one put this?

A co-worker of mine has a Pioneer 50" (purchased last year) and his set has had BI for several months now. What would we classify that under? We can not possibly rule out BI when each and every manual of any plasma (at least from the ones I know of) clearly state that if you abuse the set you will have permanent damage.

On my manual it states the following: 'A still image displayed too long may cause permanent damage to the PDP Panel.'

LOL, your thinking "let's see his answer now....."

Well what you've told be above (true or not) only eliminates the possibility of short term IR (wall charge). Long term IR (sputtering) is not going to go away unless you use a uniform solid white screen for 24-100 hours straight. If after that you see no improvement then follow the solution instructions to Type 3 HERE

Cheers
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post #60 of 67
10/16/08 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

LOL, your thinking "let's see his answer now....."

Well what you've told be above (true or not) only eliminates the possibility of short term IR (wall charge). Long term IR (sputtering) is not going to go away unless you use a uniform solid white screen for 24-100 hours straight. If after that you see no improvement then follow the solution instructions to Type 3 HERE

Cheers

Well xrox, at least we can agree that BI is a threat towards any plasma if it is improperly used.

Cheers M8!
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