Brightness of plasma displays

Originally Posted by DerekNJND

Now, as a matter of personal preference, I just like to have a TV picture that really "pops" - brightness is critical to me liking my TV. I've had these sets hooked up to the same exact source in a local electronics shop (actually done this at a few places) and no matter settings I play with or adjustments I make, the image is always duller on plasmas. Is this just an inherent strength of LCD's, the fact that they shine so brightly? Frankly, I can't stand the motion blur of an LCD since I watch alot of sports, but my living room where the new tv will be ranges from extremely bright to dark at times...so I really need to have a bright set.

So to recap - first question - are plasmas just inherently "darker" than LCD's? Will whites always be "greyer" on a plasma? Do any plasmas, besides the ones I've toyed with above, do a better job?

Originally Posted by xb1032

Plasmas are dimmer than LCDs in store which is obvious but thankfully they don't look dim in home. I still would prefer a brighter image than most plasmas put out but they are much brighter in home than what you see in store. Not to mention that both Panasonic and Samsung plasmas are pretty bright so in home I'm sure they'd appear pretty bright.

Originally Posted by oldcband

XB
Your one of the few (plasma owners) that members should listen to.

That being said is your plasma in a dark environment?

How would it work in a highly lit room?

I see you were corrected last week on white levels, (funny huh), and want to say that I will listen to you before any of the fanboys. You tell it straight.

And store settings washout the white levels because of the high lighting conditions. So plasma must be in dark conditions?

My biggest problem with plasma I owned one.

Originally Posted by oldcband

and want to say that I will listen to you before any of the fanboys. You tell it straight.

And store settings washout the white levels because of the high lighting conditions. So plasma must be in dark conditions?

My biggest problem with plasma I owned one.

Originally Posted by xb1032

I appreciate the complment oldcband. Yes, mine is in a home theater room in the basement with no windows.



I'm sure it probably depends on how much light there is in the room and what a person's preferences are. If I were to guess, I'd say for a typical type day it would work OK. But then again, it depends on how bright the viewer wants the display to be. If the sun is rising or setting on the same side of your windows then at those times IMO it wouldn't do well at all unless you were blocking the sunlight well. I have an SXRD in my family room with a fairly decent sized window and when the sun is on that side of the room it's not bright enough at that particular time (the SXRD is probably close or brighter than my 6020 and has a matte screen).

My opinion on brightness is that I believe there are a lot of people in the plasma forums that were into CRT RPTVs before hand and likely were already accustomed to having brightness and contrast low already so from their viewpoint plasmas are bright enough already.



Advanced members here at AVS focus on technical information and guidelines such as SMPTE-C above common sense. I understand the reasoning for using standards, however, shouldn't the standards be to display all the eye can see? If a display cannot display the whiteness of snow then I'm sorry. There's a problem with these standards. I've not done any research but I'm guessing that these standards were set some time back and displays probably could not display the types of whites that todays LCDs can display without crushing white level details. Just like the vast majority of plasma owners will tell you that black levels is EXTREMELY important in color reproduction, I think people turn their heads the other way when it comes to white levels (or bright enough whites). I fully understand that when video is shot that if standards aren't kept with things such as brightness, gamma, etc, that things will change. However, not everyone is content with accepting standards that don't incorporate white levels that you can see if real life.

The Kuros really are nice TVs but there is without a doubt room for improvement. I find it rather amusing that people keep saying they are bright enough. Last year I said whites and brightness could have room for improvements on my 6010 and I was told several times they were fine. However, people were so excited about not only the black levels had improved but whites are brighter, the picture is brighter, and there's more shadow detail as well. The same is happening this year too. I guarantee you that people will enjoy the added brightness and IMO if Panny, Pioneer, and Hitachi plasmas with 5 lumens are as bright as we hear, then I bet plasma will make a big comeback over LCD.

And I haven't even mentioned the power limiter and how plasma displays dim the picture in bright scenes. All someone has to do is hookup their PC to most plasmas and bring up Windows Explorer and you'll see how whites are gray. Shrink that screen to about 25% of the size with a black background and the white background in Windows Explorer will get a bit whiter. Anyone who thinks this isn't a problem is a lover of plasma and not PQ. I live with it, but in no way whatsoever do I enjoy that!



Many plasmas look terrible in bight store lighting like BB which is one of the big reasons why LCDs sell better. If my room were really bright I'd get an LCD. If there's a mixture of lighting conditions I think it'd all come down to the individuals PQ taste. Plasma and LCD really have a different look to them and what one person may prefer another may not. If plasma overcame the brightness issues then I think many would likely prefer plasma if they got over the myth of burn in.

OK my rant is done now.

Originally Posted by oldcband

I'm a fan of none just want a TV that works right.

If you wrote that it was time to buy an plasma from your experience I would do it. I trust your judgement.

Originally Posted by sharpbandaid



Plasmas are perfectly capable of bright images, but only when there's next to none content on screen. For example when displaying small white circle on the screen. However I watch real content with my displays and this is when plasma brightness limiter kicks in. Instead of showing bright whites, white level will float according to overall scene brightness. For example if source ask for bright white(first circle on my image), plasma will display greyer white (next circles on my image). LCDs don't have this limitation and whites will always look like as director intended.

Originally Posted by oldcband

XB
Well there you go. Someone like you thats a plasma proponent and honestly states his opinion and shot down again.

I'm a fan of none just want a TV that works right.

Originally Posted by D-Nice

xb1032,

The standards are the standards. True white for the HD colorspace and the NTSC SD colorspace is x.3127 y.3290 period. If you don't like it, that's personal. Create your own and be happy. Your issue is with the brightness of white....which by the standards would be the Y plot (and for the boneheads out there, don't confuse y with Y). Well, there isn't a specific number for Y. On your 6020, do you like the brightness of Performance mode (strictly the brightness )? If so, you can achieve the same brightness of Performance with the correct definition of white on the Elites.

I know this brightness solution I provided doesn't help with your 6020, but if you truly like bright whites and do not care for standards, your next display should be a LCD.

Originally Posted by sharpbandaid



Plasmas are perfectly capable of bright images, but only when there's next to none content on screen. For example when displaying small white circle on the screen. However I watch real content with my displays and this is when plasma brightness limiter kicks in. Instead of showing bright whites, white level will float according to overall scene brightness. For example if source ask for bright white(first circle on my image), plasma will display greyer white (next circles on my image). LCDs don't have this limitation and whites will always look like as director intended.

Originally Posted by xb1032

Yes, I think my issue is the brightness of whites. And the other part is the power limiter in plasmas which dims the picture on bright scenes. Even if you adjust the Kuros to standards, the white levels fluctuate depending on how much bright content is on screen. I'm guessing 5 lumen technology will help in both of those areas.

I've not really used the performance mode but I'm guessing it's like Dynamic. And yes, at times I do like that type of brightness. For movies and TV I use Movie mode and like the brighter punchier picture of the other modes with the exception of the DRE and color temp that those modes force. For video games I use Standard but I have to turn up the brightness to avoid black crush. I know I would probably be a bit happier with the Elite since Pioneer crippled the 20 series this year but since I've upgraded yearly I've avoided the added cost for the time being.



I'm not sure if you are taking my comments as intended. I'm only complaining about the standards in regards to white levels only. If understand your post correctly then I took it that you said in regards to the Y plot that there isn't a set specific on white type brightness correct? This is limited by your contrast setting which is adjusted to the point where whites don't start clipping detail.

Also, while I do like bright whites, I care more about black levels. The main reason I complain about plasma brightness isn't because I like LCD more, it's because I generally like the look of the plasma better but I prefer brighter whites. Hopefully one of the NeoPDPs will suit me better (If I can afford them).

Originally Posted by D-Nice

Ok, cool. Now with the 5 lumen PDPs that are coming out next year, keep in mind that they will not eliminate the brightness dip on full screen white fields (they still have a APL circuit). However, they will make those type of instances brighter (if implemented correctly).

Originally Posted by xb1032





Advanced members here at AVS focus on technical information and guidelines such as SMPTE-C above common sense. I understand the reasoning for using standards, however, shouldn't the standards be to display all the eye can see? If a display cannot display the whiteness of snow then I'm sorry. There's a problem with these standards. I've not done any research but I'm guessing that these standards were set some time back and displays probably could not display the types of whites that todays LCDs can display without crushing white level details.

Originally Posted by borf

I was gonna mention this...I think the standards were (still are?) developed and set to optimal CRT performance (what broadcasters/post production still use for reference afaik). So when calibrating whites for exampe you are only mimicking CRT (and its limitations) rather than some objective standard. If there are "whiter" displays I too welcome them, especially considering my eyes aren't nearly at light sensitive as they used to be..