Panasonic EZ28 - recording OTA HD channel in widescreen

You must go into the settings menu and adjust the TV aspect ratio setting. Go to Functions, then under Seteup, go to the TV screen tab and change TV Type to 16:9.
All RAM recordings from the HD channels will be displayed in the letterbox shape on your pc's dvd software players.

Looks nice, though. A good example of the Panny's fine picture quality from it's ATSC tuner.

The whole 16:9, 4:3 thing is rather confusing and poorly explained in the manual IMO.
The Pannys, like all DVDRs will record 16:9 if fed that signal. What the Pannys and most other DVDRs will not do is to set the WS bit to tell the playback device to add the letterbox if you play the DVD on a 4:3 TV.
On my Pannys I record 16:9 all the time on all disc types and they play back just fine and in 16:9 on my 16:9 TV. For whatever reason Panasonic has limited setting the bit to RAM discs
If I try and play one of my own recorded WS discs on a 4:3 TV the whole 16:9 image will be inside the 4:3 frame. IOW everyone will be tall and skinny.

Since the manual says you can only record 16:9 WS on a RAM disc, you could be seeing 4:3 programs on your TV that's set for 16:9 WS. I record lots of 4:3 programs that my TV stretches to 16:9, but I know the program is actually 4:3.

The only way to know for sure is to record a digital WS channel like TNT, which has a perfect-circle logo, on a non-RAM disc and see if the circle isn't slightly oval-shaped on your TV set for 16:9.. You can also change your TV to "Normal" or "4:3" or whatever and the circle logo will be slightly squished, so you know the program is actually 16:9 WS.

Either that or you've discovered an "undocumented" feature... actually, a "counter-indicated" feature.

FWIW, with my Panny EZ17 I can record 16:9 WS on a DVD-R disc, but I have to manually change the TV setting to display it properly in 16:9, where the RAM disc automatically changes the TV. Otherwise they look the same.

What part of that is "undocumented"? Isn't it cited in the manual that dvd-ram is the only format that this recorder will set the flag?...unless you were referring to a different part of the statement? I'm just asking, to clarify.

I am gathering that "setting the flag" on a recorded disc is largely inconsequential for 16:9 users, anyway? (anybody please cite counter examples, as needed) If you have set the recorder to output to a widescreen display and you are recording from an "hd" channel, it will always come out looking the way it should, right?

The people that are definitely impacted by this little detail are the remaining 4:3 display users, no? If there is any inbound anamorphic content to the recorder (whether from the tuner or the inputs), then the flag will need to be set (and a disc that supports the flag being set needs to be used) or it won't appear correctly when played back and sent to a 4:3 display, right? (If you are recording sd letterboxed content, as opposed to anamorphic content, then I suppose you would get the opposite result where it looks correct on a 4:3 display, regardless of the disc used, and incorrectly squished on a 16:9 display, if using something other than dvd-ram?)

There does seem to be some interesting experiments implied by these questions. Like what if I tune to a "non-widescreen" channel over atsc, and record that to dvd-rw as opposed to dvd-ram. When I play it back, will it look correct on a 4:3 display? Will it look correct on a 16:9 display? Are there cases where the widescreen flag could be set when it shouldn't? What if I send anamorphic content through an input (from another recorder)? Will the Pana recorder detect any flags present in that signal, or does this only work when it comes through the atsc tuner?

This is slightly OT but what really confuses me on my EH-55 w/HDD is if I setup the recorder to be able to HS copy off the HDD to DVD the manual says it will not record 16:9. I've tried both settings and other than the fact that if I have it setup for WS I cannot HS copy off the HDD, they both record in 16:9
And yes they are both true WS, not stretched 4:3. I sure wish I knew why anybody would want it setup for WS since then you cannot HS dub that title. Kind of a mystery to me.

edit: MrHanky, I think what confuses people is the manual says it will "record 16:9 in the 4:3 aspect". To me that says it will not record 16:9 but that is incorrect.
As far as recording a HD 4:3 program, no it will look incorrect even on a 4:3 TV if set for 16:9. It will have black bars on the side and everybody will be tall and skinny. Note if your have a 4:3 TV that you can stretch the image, it will look OK, but they are very rare. I have a Sony 4:3 LCD monitor that I can do just that, but I've never seen another monitor that can do this.
I think the rule of thumb would be, if you plan on watching the DVDs on a 4:3 TV you should probably have it set to 4:3, which will then cut the sides off the 16:9 frame, never to be seen again.

You are saying you can realtime record anamorphic to disc, but not HS the same kind of content to disc? (I don't have a solution, I'm just asking for clarity)

On the EH-55 anyway if I setup the unit to be able to HS copy a particular title off the HDD to a DVD the manual says "16:9 content will be recorded in the 4:3 aspect". Like realtime recording to DVDs(eg. RWs) this is a incorrect statement. If the recorder is fed 16:9 material it will record it, just like to RW discs for example.

Well, it seems to go w/o saying that you better have it set for 4:3 if you plan to view stuff from it on a 4:3 display (otherwise, you will be assured of a distorted result). That will also affect how it records things (for better or worse), though.

If anamorphic content is fed to the recorder, and you want to keep it anamorphic, then you should set the recorder to 16:9 (as opposed to 4:3). It won't look right when you monitor it in realtime, but you are doing this to get the recording "right".

If anamorphic content is fed to the recorder, and you keep it set to 4:3, then the recorder will automatically letterbox that content, and then record that.

Now if you feed anamorphic content, and recorded the anamorphic content to disc, and then playback the anamorphic content, then you could still get a variety of things to happen on the display, depending on how you have set the dvd-r and dvd-ram playback settings (letterbox, fullscreen, original <=== those aren't the real names in the menu, but you should be able to get the concept).

I guess there are a lot of results that are possible depending on a combination of settings...

What I was referring to wasn't setting the flag, just plain recording 16:9 cuz pg 20 of the manual says this:

"Recording of
Widescreen
broadcasts

RAM
Recorded in 16:9 aspect (Widescreen)

-R -R DL -RW(V) +R +R DL +RW
Recorded in 4:3 aspect

If you have a regular 4:3 aspect TV and you receive 16:9 aspect images from a digital broadcast, they will appear in the letterbox format (➔ 77, Letterbox)."

Then, again, on pg 62, the chart of discs has only RAM indicated for "Recording 16:9 aspect"

while all other disc types show " (4:3 aspect)"

I agree Wajo
The manual is very confusing, which is why we seem to get this question quite frequently

There are 2 things happening here, and I agree that the instances of undocumented and poorly documented will be applicable.

As far as actual operation, we should be sure to maintain the prevailing logic of this forum that the recorder is certainly capable of recording whatever you feed it (4:3 sd, letterbox, anamorphic). As far as it distinguishing what you are recording and it playing back the material, that's where much variability enters the scene.

The most pertinent setting on the device will be how that output setting for 16:9 or 4:3 display. Besides the obvious intent of sending the appropriate signal to your particular display, it seems to also affect what actually gets recorded when you are feeding it an anamorphic signal (from the built-in atsc tuner, for sure, but from external inputs, I am curious to do more testing). Most importantly, the 4:3 output setting will cause it to also letterbox that anamorphic signal and record that letterbox result. Once it is letterboxed, those black bars will be stuck in there for good (as well as the loss in vertical resolution), for that content. For most 4:3 display users, this scenario will end up being the desired outcome, anyway.

If you set the output to 16:9, then it will retain that inbound anamorphic signal for the actual recording. If you are using a 16:9 display and/or you specifically want to capture that anamorphic content, as is, then this setting is where you want to be. Naturally, for 4:3 display users, realtime monitoring will not look right, but that is the penalty to be paid if you are adamant on capturing the anamorphic, as is. The pay-off comes when you playback the content from the recorded disc. Per the manual, the anamorphic content will be scaled to proper letterbox proportions to your 4:3 display (one caveat being you will have to be sure to switch the output setting to 4:3), if the disc you used was dvd-ram (the implication being, that the anamorphic content can be recorded to other kinds of discs, just fine, but the necessary flag will not be stored on the disc, such that any other machine that disc ends up in will necessarily recognize it is anamorphic content and scale accordingly). Using a dvd-ram, it is essentially achieving the same thing as if you played a typical (anamorphic) movie dvd disc that was bought from the store. Recording on other kinds of dvd-r/rw discs, it will be up to the display to display the content properly (you may have to adjust settings manually). 16:9 display users should be able to achieve some setting that does the trick. 4:3 display users may be out of luck, for this particular scenario. Such a display may not have the settings to scale the "dumb" anamorphic content properly (as opposed to "smart" anamorphic content that still contains the widescreen flag).

Well, that was a mouthful, eh? I suppose to answer your post more directly/shortly, the manual should read with the following modifications (italicized):

"Recording of
genuine Widescreen
broadcasts

RAM
Recorded in anamorphic w widescreen flag (when display output is set to 16:9)
Recorded in letterbox (when display output is set to 4:3)

-R -R DL -RW(V) +R +R DL +RW
Recorded in anamorphic w/o widescreen flag (applies the same to either display output setting)


If you have a regular 4:3 aspect TV (and the display output is set to 4:3) and you receive 16:9 aspect images from a digital broadcast, they will appear (and be recorded) in the letterbox format (➔ 77, Letterbox)."

Then, again, on pg 62, the chart of discs has only RAM indicated for
"Recording anamorphic content with preserved embedded widescreen flag"
(which admittedly will probably make even less sense to the average consumer)

while all other disc types show
"— (anamorphic content lacking any widescreen flag)
4:3 sd and letterbox sd material can be recorded on any recordable disc type"


I dunno- I tried my best!

I just want to clarify my previous posting regarding the EZ17. I only have a 16:9 HDTV connected so everything is set up accordingly. The EZ17 will record 16:9 WS HD programs via its digital tuner onto DVD-RAM or DVD-R, the two types I have used. Both discs will play back 16:9 WS on my TV. The RAM will behave essentially like a "typical (anamorphic) movie dvd disc that was bought from the store" just as Mr. Hanky mentioned. The DVD-R requires that I manually change the display setting from Normal to Full. The end result is that they look identical.

When I want to preserve the WS flag, on a DVD-R disc, on a program recorded on my EZ-28, first I record it to DVD-RAM (which sets the flag). Second, I HS dub that program on the DVD-RAM to the HDD of my Pioneer 640 (which reads and writes DVD-RAM). Third, I HS dub the program from the HDD of the 640 to a DVD-R disc.

The resultant program has the WS flag, because when I play it on one of my 4:3 TVs, it is letterboxed, but it plays full WS on my 16:9 TVs (plus I checked it on my PC).

This requires 2 extra steps and 2 different recorders, but it is worth it if I am creating the DVD for someone who only has a 4:3 TV. Works for me...YMMV.

I follow your logic and it's a nice procedure to trick your machine into setting the bit. Unfortunately I cannot duplicate the same outcome by doing the same thing on my Panasonic EH-55. That is if I record on RAM(on my EH-55) to set the bit then copy from RAM to HDD somehow the machine knows it's WS and sets yet another flag on the HDD that doesn't let me HS copy it back to a regular DVD a RAM disc would be OK though.
Also on the Pannys, as has been reported at AVS before, if I record to RAM on a non HDD Panny(such as your EZ-28) I cannot HS copy that disc to the HDD on my HDD equipped EH-55
I guess you found a way around it by using your Pio. If I cared more about it I guess I'd figure out how to change the bit on my PC, but the way I figure if the person I borrow a disc to doesn't have a WS monitor, well they can watch skinny people I watch fat people all the time on my 16:9 screens

Oh, and MrHanky-I agree pretty much with all your statements but I think once you have created that WS DVD that doesen't have the bit set, there is nothing you can do to your player to make it look correct on a 4:3 TV. That is unless you have one of the rare 4:3 TVs that allows you to add the letter box, such as my Sony PC monitor/TV. I don't think any analog TV is going to have this feature.

Have you tried feeding the output from the ez-28 (via s-video) to one of the inputs of the eh-55 (recording to hdd)? The widescreen flag should be embedded in the signal, itself, so hopefully the eh-55 will preserve that state as it records the signal? Then the next big question is, will you then be able to HS that to dvd-r?

This is actually the setup I usually employ between my Pana and Tosh recorders. Essentially, I am just using the Pana as the external atsc tuner to my Tosh (yes, it is just one more thing you have to sync for scheduled recordings, but it isn't that bad if it gets you what you want in the end). Another great perk to this is that I now can capture the anamorphic content and watch it in pseudo-realtime in proper aspect on a 4:3 display (via chaseplay mode).

Well the bad thing about recording with the EH-55 is their is one option in the setup that's called "enable high speed copying". If I have that set to allow me to dub that title HS from its HDD to DVD section it does not set the WS bit for that title I'm recording. If I have it setup to not allow HS copying for that title then it will set the bit
I guess I've never tried turning off the HS mode, then copying from a RAM that had the bit set to the HDD and then copying that title to a regular DVD since that would entail 2 reencodings of the title so I don't think it's something that I'd ever really do.
I just basically leave the setting to HS for all my recordings and don't worry about the bit. As has been mentioned the PQ is the same for either setting.

That is definitely a strange dynamic. I cannot figure what would make it need to be that way, either.

I am always amazed when this subject is discussed and usually learn a little bit more each time. I know for me for a long time it was the #1 reason not to buy the Panny. Eventually I relented (given the better PQ and Sony's CRM problems) but still wish Panny just would have set the %&$# bit for all formats.

I agree...it's probably the only real way for the consumer to finally figure this out (by going over it in discussion, again and again). It's definitely not a straightforward subject, which is probably how it ends up being poorly written in any given user manual, these days. It's not necessarily because the manual is poorly written, but this particular topic is very difficult to explain in words, altogether.

Another important distinction I wanted to bring up is the passive vs. active nature of a device that "supports" widescreen flags. There are 2 kinds of features to note here, but they both relate to 1 thing (the widescreen flag).

One feature is simply the ability to preserve/pass-on the widescreen flag if it is already present on an incoming signal. The Pana ez models seem to fall into this category (and are additionally finicky to supporting the flag for only certain kinds of recordable discs).

An entirely different feature is the ability to explicitly set the flag via some setting in a menu. This is most pertinent when recording or HS dubbing to a recordable disc (such as a dvd-r). I have found that on my Tosh, one has to be sure to explicitly set this on or off for the particular content you are writing to the dvd-r. I can do this on a program-by-program basis on a single disc. That is, a single dvd-r can contain combinations of 4:3, letterbox, "dumb" anamorphic, or "smart" anamorphic titles. They just have to be separate titles, and I enable/disable the menu setting as is appropriate, as I put each program onto the disc.

The good thing about this is you can control this explicitly.

The bad thing can be that it relies on you to set it correctly, if you want the correct result. (You can even create your own oddball results by "anamorphizing" conventional 4:3 material or "de-anamorphizing" 16:9 material. Naturally, there is no real need to do this (the exception being if you are "correcting" material that was incorrectly flagged, in the first place). I'm just saying that it is possible.) The relevance of this is that you may be feeding anamorphic material that already has an embedded flag enabled, but it will not be passed on to the dvd-r, if the menu setting is otherwise (the menu setting is the priority). It will pass through the flag in the realtime output to the display, I'm guessing, but the menu setting will govern the dvd-r recording operation (it will pass through the flag successfully and automatically, if recording to the hdd or dvd-ram, as well- no menu setting is involved).

Yeah, I tried it on my Panasonic E-500 and the same thing happened. The Pannys don't allow you the HS dub a program recorded on a DVD-RAM on a non-HDD DVDR to the HDD of another Panny DVDR, and to then HS that program to a DVD-R. This is a quirk of the Panny recorders. The HS "flag" must be set on the recorder, and this is not possible on the non-HDD Panny DVDRs.

Fortunately, my Pioneer has no such restriction, which allows me to "launder" the WS flag from DVD-RAM to DVD-R.

JJeff is correct in his reponse. Once you set the HS dub setting on the EH-55 (and on my E-500), you lose the ability to set the WS flag.

---stupid, I know...

I have the 47k and when I record a HD show from the QAM tuner to a RAM disk using the XP (1 hour) setting it plays back in widescreen and (to my eye) HD. Incredble picture.

You're welcome, and I am glad it worked out! It's that one little function that is so crucial to setting up how everything else operates on the machine.

The still pictures look pretty good; what recording mode are you using (e.g. XP, SP, LP, EP)?

Thanks,

Tony