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Beyond Neutral Gray - Page 2

post #31 of 242
10/22/08 at 8:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

I have Lowes, H.D., Sherwin Williams and True Value to choose from.
Which?

Since kingjamez is already going to try it with the Valspar Flat Enamel, then maybe you could try the Behr Premium Plus Ultra Exterior Flat #4850 (self-priming) or the Valspar Duramax® Exterior Flat House Paint (self-priming). Both of these paints are self-priming and therefore easier to apply to your PVC panels.

Again I would say that if you are going to compare more than the visibility of the surface to BW then you will need to go with a darker tint. For the Valspar that would be ICI Paints (Glidden) "Veil" 00NN 53/000 (RGB 190 190 190, L*ab 76.99 -0.02 -0.11). I would also suggest you make 2 paint+poly samples, 3:1 and 4:1 should get you in the same ball park as the BW-AAA (4:1) mix. If you want to try the Behr Ultra 4850 then use the following tint to get it a little closer in shade:

~N7.5 DIY Tint {Extra Dark Gray}

Quart Custom Tint
Behr UPW 4850
0 12 0 Lamp Black
0 02 1 Brown Oxide
0 01 0 Medium Yellow

Gallon Custom Tint
Behr UPW 4850
0 46 1 Lamp Black
0 10 1 Brown Oxide
0 04 1 Medium Yellow

Again I would ask that you make samples of anything you try and send them to Harpmaker so he can check the effect of the Minwax Satin Polycrylic on the color of the paint.

Thanks again folks for being willing to give this a try.
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post #32 of 242
10/22/08 at 8:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Not looking for ambient light performance. I am in the minority in that even with a relatively high ansi contrast PJ with damn deep black levels I like grey screens. My theater is completely dark for the major majority of viewing, yet I still like grey screens.

If you are mostly going to use your screen in a darkened room and not too interested in how this paint + polycrylic compares in blacks and white levels to the BW then stick with the N8 shade of gray. For paints from Lowes they can color match to True Values "Winter Mountain" or ICI Paints "Universal Gray". If you are going to try out the Behr 4850 then use this tint for a near N8:

~N8 DIY Tint {Dark Gray}

Quart Custom Tint
Behr UPW 4850
0 8 0 Lamp Black
0 1 1 Brown Oxide
0 0 1 Medium Yellow

Gallon Custom Tint
Behr UPW 4850
0 31 0 Lamp Black
0 07 0 Brown Oxide
0 03 0 Medium Yellow

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post #33 of 242
10/22/08 at 8:39am
Perhaps I should do both? One for direct comparison of IQ and one just to see how it shakes out?
I can easily paint some samples and send them to Harpmaker, but what should I use as sample cards?
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post #34 of 242
10/22/08 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjamez View Post

So let's give this a try. Give me a mix for a neutral grey that doesn't require AAA. I'll mix some up, put varying amounts of Polycrlic, and compare the mixes to my bone stock BW screen.

-Jim

Another option would be to use Valspar clear protector in the flat finish. The sheen should not be a problem even with a half and half mix.
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post #35 of 242
10/22/08 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjamez View Post

Ok, I'll give this a try. I'll use 1/8" hardboard with Kilz2 primer. I've got the Wagner Control Spray so I should be able to produce a smooth surface. First test will be:

Valspar Ultra Premium Interior Flat Enamel tinted to Glidden "Universal Grey". I'll do 2 panels to start with. One with the straight grey, one with 4:1 polycyrlic added. I'll compare these two to my BW screen.

It'll probably be the weekend before I can make all this happen, but I'll post my results when I get done.

-Jim


You might consider tinting the primer as well.
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post #36 of 242
10/22/08 at 10:16am
Ok, given Tiddlers recommendation, I'm going to use:

Valspar Ultra Premium Interior Flat Enamel tinted to Veil instead of Universal Grey as I am interested in ambient light performance. I'll do a panel of stock Veil, 3:1, and 4:1 polycyrlic.

-Jim
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post #37 of 242
10/22/08 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Perhaps I should do both? One for direct comparison of IQ and one just to see how it shakes out?
I can easily paint some samples and send them to Harpmaker, but what should I use as sample cards?

Do you have a good range of adjustability on the projector brightness and contrast settings, that will allow you to adjust for the different screen shades?
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post #38 of 242
10/22/08 at 10:40am
Sure.
Low and high lamp....brightness and contrast have huge ranges, and I can adjust the gamma.(several options)
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post #39 of 242
10/22/08 at 1:52pm
Ok, went to Lowes today and picked up a quart of flat enamel in Veil. That minwax Polycrylic was more expensive than I expected at $16.00 a quart. But oh well, it'll be fun to experiment.

Any suggestions for methods for accurate measurement so that i get the mixes right?

-Jim
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post #40 of 242
10/22/08 at 2:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjamez View Post

Ok, went to Lowes today and picked up a quart of flat enamel in Veil. That minwax Polycrylic was more expensive than I expected at $16.00 a quart. But oh well, it'll be fun to experiment.

Any suggestions for methods for accurate measurement so that i get the mixes right?

-Jim

First and foremost mix the polycrylic well before drawing any out of the can.

I found that using a 2oz. or 60ml feeding syringe works well for mixing paint. You may be able to get one at the local pharmacy or try the local veterinary office. They use these syringes to feed sick animals.

Otherwise you are stuck trying to use measuring cups. Very messy with the paint but not too bad for the watery polycrylic.
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post #41 of 242
10/22/08 at 2:33pm
Lowes sells small plactic clear buckets with measuring marks for just a couple dollars.
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post #42 of 242
10/22/08 at 6:38pm
Thanks E-A-G-L-E-S. I picked up a "graduated" plastic cup at Lowes. That'll make things easier. That will let me do the 4:1 first, then add some more polycrylic to do a 3:1, and even a 2:1 if the results prove it worthy. I'll be priming the boards tomorrow morning. Maybe I can spray on Friday. We'll see.

-Jim
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post #43 of 242
10/23/08 at 6:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Not looking for ambient light performance. I am in the minority in that even with a relatively high ansi contrast PJ with damn deep black levels I like grey screens. My theater is completely dark for the major majority of viewing, yet I still like grey screens.

I used to use flat paint, and prefered a medium to dark gray screen. I started experimenting with sheen and some very dark gray screens. In one of his posts, Bud mentioned that beyond a certain shade of gray, he saw no additional improvements in the blacks. That prompted me to try a very light shade , and even white screen, but with sheen pushed just short of hotspotting. He was right about the blacks, and now I like the lighter shades better. Mostly for the improvement in flesh tones and colors. My room walls are essentially black now, so that is part of the reason I can use the lighter shades. If your walls are dark, take Tiddlers advice and try something close to N8 as well.
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post #44 of 242
10/23/08 at 8:13am
My current screen is a 8.5/9.0 C&S light grey....but my walls and ceiling are off white.(though my ceiling is vaulted so I don't get much reflection off of that.
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post #45 of 242
10/23/08 at 8:49am
Well I finally got around to redoing my screen last night. My screen a was a few years old and still a product of the ambient light improvement thread days. IMO it had a lot of shortcomings in the form of shimmering from the mica flakes. It had fairly good blacks and outstanding whites, but at times I could catch myself watching the screen instead of the image on it. Then I squished a spider on it a while back and even after cleaning could still see the spot. SO it was time for sure.

I ended up using Glidden "universal gray" (N8) as my color of choice. The base paint I used is imo the best flat finish paint on the market in terms of drying with a uniform finish. The product is Dulux Lifemaster flat. It is product number 59170 and is only available through Glidden ICI company stores. Its quite pricey as well, but worth it imo. It is also VOC free, so it is safe for use in any environment.

I mixed the paint at a 3-1 ratio with the minwax poly and then added 10% of the total mix in water. I rolled it with a 5mm lint free roller and then with a dense foam roller. The paint went on very, very smooth, and stayed wet for a long time allowing a lot of work time if a person should need it. This finished product is uniform as could possibly be.

Playing around this AM with a few Blu movies and some telvised HD the difference from the old screen is night and day. Colors are better, skin tones are better, and the image has a tremendous amount of depth. It really does get that looking out a window feeling. No shimmering, and screen door effect is also noticeably less than before. At this point I really see no reason at all to try anything else as any improvement would be minimal at best. It really is amazing to me how one of the simplest DIY paint solutions I have tried, also appears to be the best one I have tried.
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post #46 of 242
10/23/08 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

My current screen is a 8.5/9.0 C&S light grey....but my walls and ceiling are off white.(though my ceiling is vaulted so I don't get much reflection off of that.

I thought you were going to compare with BW. I think C&S is a good mix, but I think I would prefer a darker gray in a room with light colored walls. At least in a small room like mine. In a big room where the walls are not too close, I could go either way.
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post #47 of 242
10/23/08 at 9:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

. . .
Playing around this AM with a few Blu movies and some telvised HD the difference from the old screen is night and day. Colors are better, skin tones are better, and the image has a tremendous amount of depth. It really does get that looking out a window feeling. No shimmering, and screen door effect is also noticeably less than before. At this point I really see no reason at all to try anything else as any improvement would be minimal at best. It really is amazing to me how one of the simplest DIY paint solutions I have tried, also appears to be the best one I have tried.

I am glad, and I must admit somewhat relieved, to hear that you have produced results that are satisfactory to you.

Please give us an update after about a week when the paint has cured fully.

It's good to still be conscious!
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post #48 of 242
10/23/08 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl View Post

I thought you were going to compare with BW. I think C&S is a good mix, but I think I would prefer a darker gray in a room with light colored walls. At least in a small room like mine. In a big room where the walls are not too close, I could go either way.

Yeah, this room is rather large and open to an adjoining kitchen, plus the vaulted ceilings.
I had BW until about a week ago when Istarted my testing of as many grey screens as possible kick.
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post #49 of 242
10/23/08 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjamez View Post

Thanks E-A-G-L-E-S. I picked up a "graduated" plastic cup at Lowes. That'll make things easier. That will let me do the 4:1 first, then add some more polycrylic to do a 3:1, and even a 2:1 if the results prove it worthy. I'll be priming the boards tomorrow morning. Maybe I can spray on Friday. We'll see.

-Jim

If you get hotspotting, but like what you see otherwise, you could add some of the Valspar protector to reduce the sheen a little.
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post #50 of 242
10/23/08 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Yeah, this room is rather large and open to an adjoining kitchen, plus the vaulted ceilings.
I had BW until about a week ago when Istarted my testing of as many grey screens as possible kick.

I think I painted over 30 screens before deciding to stick with my latest. I've done a few test panels too, but I think full screens are the best way to evaluate picture quality. Mine are painted on 1/8th inch hardboard.
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post #51 of 242
10/23/08 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I am glad, and I must admit somewhat relieved, to hear that you have produced results that are satisfactory to you.

Please give us an update after about a week when the paint has cured fully.

It's good to still be conscious!

Its funny really. Over the last 3-5 years I have spent over a $1000 on paint, just so I can tinker with screens. I have tried almost everything, including some mixes that had 20 ingredients. Some looked good, some not so good. Looking back over the years I can honestly say the difference has never been huge. From plain old flat white, all the way to the most complicated mix going, to the simple mix I have now. The results are all similar. Take away a basis for comparison and most people would be happy with any screen as long as it is smooth, doesnt hotspot or shimmer and allows for good color. Everything else becomes a victim of perception. This screen is as good as any I've tried. Took 5 minutes to mix, and less than 5 minutes per coat. I have finally realized that the seacrh for that final 5% in performance gain just isnt worth the effort. With a new son on the way, and a life going good, I think its time to sit back and enjoy and stop fussing over that ever elusive 5%.
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post #52 of 242
10/24/08 at 5:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

Its funny really. Over the last 3-5 years I have spent over a $1000 on paint, just so I can tinker with screens. I have tried almost everything, including some mixes that had 20 ingredients. Some looked good, some not so good. Looking back over the years I can honestly say the difference has never been huge. From plain old flat white, all the way to the most complicated mix going, to the simple mix I have now. The results are all similar. Take away a basis for comparison and most people would be happy with any screen as long as it is smooth, doesnt hotspot or shimmer and allows for good color. Everything else becomes a victim of perception. This screen is as good as any I've tried. Took 5 minutes to mix, and less than 5 minutes per coat. I have finally realized that the seacrh for that final 5% in performance gain just isnt worth the effort. With a new son on the way, and a life going good, I think its time to sit back and enjoy and stop fussing over that ever elusive 5%.

I'm sure I have spent that much too. I don't really think of it as money spent on a screen as much as money spent to entertain myself for the last couple of years. In the last two years the contrast and brightness of projectors that most of us can afford, has increased dramatically. This has lead to there being much less need to try and compensate for projector shortcomings with exotic screen surfaces.

I think the current requirements of a DIY Screen solution boils down to the following:
  1. Color Neutrality
  2. Smooth Finish
  3. Adequate Gloss

After that there seems to be some subtle enhancement to the image depth or transparency of the screen by adding some degree of translucency to the surface. The control of gloss and addition of some translucency is of course contributed by the Minwax Clear Satin Polycrylic. There may be other products such as the water base Varathane Satin that will work but the Minwax I am sure of.

It was mentioned that a quart of the Minwax Satin Polycrylic is a bit pricy. This is true but keep in mind that it also comes in 1/2 pint cans (8oz.). Therefore a quart of one of the matte (not flat) paints and a 1/2 pint of the satin polycrylic is all you need to apply two, possibly three coats to a 100+ inch screen.

One addition quality that the satin polycrylic adds is the ability for the paint to level out and significantly reduce the roller texture. Of course the underlying surface must be smooth to begin with.

There is still one last advantage that many anxious new projector owners may appreciate. All the ingredients can be purchased at Lowes or Home Depot. One stop on the way home on a Friday night.

I'm looking forward, with less trepidation, to the results that E-A-G-L-E-S and
kingjamez will report. Now that biglyle has tried a 3:1 flat paint + satin polycrylic, it will be interesting to see if E-A-G-L-E-S and kingjamez find the 4:1 or 3:1 ratio more suitable for the matte paints.
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post #53 of 242
10/24/08 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

well i finally got around to redoing my screen last night. My screen a was a few years old and still a product of the ambient light improvement thread days. Imo it had a lot of shortcomings in the form of shimmering from the mica flakes. It had fairly good blacks and outstanding whites, but at times i could catch myself watching the screen instead of the image on it. Then i squished a spider on it a while back and even after cleaning could still see the spot. So it was time for sure.

I ended up using glidden "universal gray" (n8) as my color of choice. The base paint i used is imo the best flat finish paint on the market in terms of drying with a uniform finish. The product is dulux lifemaster flat. It is product number 59170 and is only available through glidden ici company stores. Its quite pricey as well, but worth it imo. It is also voc free, so it is safe for use in any environment.

I mixed the paint at a 3-1 ratio with the minwax poly and then added 10% of the total mix in water. I rolled it with a 5mm lint free roller and then with a dense foam roller. The paint went on very, very smooth, and stayed wet for a long time allowing a lot of work time if a person should need it. This finished product is uniform as could possibly be.

Playing around this am with a few blu movies and some telvised hd the difference from the old screen is night and day. Colors are better, skin tones are better, and the image has a tremendous amount of depth. It really does get that looking out a window feeling. No shimmering, and screen door effect is also noticeably less than before. At this point i really see no reason at all to try anything else as any improvement would be minimal at best. It really is amazing to me how one of the simplest diy paint solutions i have tried, also appears to be the best one i have tried.



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post #54 of 242
10/25/08 at 10:04am
A small update.

Watched 3 movies last night and am really impressed with this. Considering how simple this is in every regard, the results are quite amazing. I have tried so many different mixes over the last few years and I can honestly say, this simple mix is the best of the bunch. It may be the first mix I have tried that appears to be shortcoming free. Colors are excellent, no hotspotting, no shimmering, no blurring, blacks are deep, whites are truly white. The thing that still impresses me most however is the image depth. This is what has surprised me to the point of going WOW. No mix I have ever tried in the past has given this much of a realistic appearance of depth. I am not sure why, but my eyes do not lie. Its hard to believe that something so simple is working this well. I guess sometimes the easiest solutions really are the best.
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post #55 of 242
10/25/08 at 11:52am
What are some of the mixes you have tried previously?
I wanted to start today, but my young neighbors had a very loud party until 4am so I am dead tired today.
Basically waiting for him to get home to "talk".
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post #56 of 242
10/25/08 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

What are some of the mixes you have tried previously?

I have tested almost every mix here over the last 3-5 years. I was very active during the ambient light development thread and have honestly tried over 100 mixes. So you name it, I have probably tried it.
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post #57 of 242
10/25/08 at 8:18pm
Some favorites?
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post #58 of 242
10/25/08 at 9:21pm
I did a couple test panels of this today. I made a mistake and got the polycrylic clear gloss instead of the satin. So i did 2 panels one with the clear gloss, the other of the satin.
I did a 3:1 mix with "veil" and compared that to my BW screen. The clear gloss and satin panels are 100% identical with no noticeable difference between the 2. The colors were also not quite as vibrant as the BW screen, this mostly showed up in skin tones. Over all, it was good at everything else. Additionally, I didn't get the depth that others have spoken about. There wasn't much "gloss" to my panels. They both still looked rather flat. There was zero hot spotting. I'm considering going to a 2:1 mix next just to see what happens.

However, I don't believe that a test panel can give the overall since of depth as it is simply too small. That seems like something that you may just have to paint your whole screen in order to observe. It's hard for a panel to "disappear" when it's stuck in front of your screen.

-Jim
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post #59 of 242
10/25/08 at 10:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjamez View Post

. . . I did a 3:1 mix with "veil" and compared that to my BW screen. The clear gloss and satin panels are 100% identical with no noticeable difference between the 2. . . .

-Jim

Jim, What base paint did you use?

Did you mix the polycrylic well before drawing any off to mix with the paint?

How does the shade of the "Veil" compare to the shade of the BW?

Did you calibrate the projector to the Veil shade or is it still calibrated for the BW?
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post #60 of 242
10/26/08 at 3:15pm
Thread Starter 
Jim, one other thing I am curious about is what projector you are using and how it is mounted?
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