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Your "World's Best Audio System" - Page 34

post #991 of 1216
3/5/09 at 10:04am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

sorry but once again I totally disagree.

I would hardly say that a pair of JL Audio Gotham subs are bad let alone the crossover filter

The JL Gothams are the overall best stand-alone subs I've had in my room. No question they are a fantastic product -- anyone that hears them properly set up will instantly know that. I will say that the new Paradigm Sub25 is probably the best deal in subwoofers today, however. My latest experience with it tells me it is a game changer at $4000, and easily better than the Fathom f113.

Even still, the Arrakis matches the low-end extension of the Gothams in my room, and wipes the floor with them in terms of low-end articulation and agility. I don't think I've reached anywhere near the output capabilities of either, so I can't compare there. They both have significant headroom for a two-channel system.
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post #992 of 1216
3/5/09 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Audyssey recommended all speakers but the rear surrounds set to large with 40 Hz crossovers and the rear surrounds set to small and a 60 Hz crossover.

Does your receiver have multiple LP filters for each main channel or only a single LP filter ?

Regards,
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post #993 of 1216
3/5/09 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

sorry but once again I totally disagree.

I would hardly say that a pair of JL Audio Gotham subs are bad let alone the crossover filter


I have not heard them. But I have heard couple of system that have the crossover at 80 hz without any problem of the problem you talked about.
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post #994 of 1216
3/5/09 at 12:45pm
I have always found it easy to close my eyes and pick out which of the X-2's drivers is making which sound, thats not a good quality for a loudspeaker to have is it?
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post #995 of 1216
3/5/09 at 12:51pm
NIN74, you are right, its all about proper setup. If the phase adjustment is set appropriately and the sub and the speakers are level matched, then you really shouldn't be able to hear the sub. Also, as far as the sub receiving some of the mid-bass frequencies that are directional, placing them in the same plane as the speakers as well as having them toed in towards the listening position will alleviate some of those issues.
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post #996 of 1216
3/5/09 at 1:01pm
Any chance we can keep this thread about the room Jeff is putting together??
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post #997 of 1216
3/5/09 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Fritz View Post

The JL Gothams are the overall best stand-alone subs I've had in my room. No question they are a fantastic product -- anyone that hears them properly set up will instantly know that. I will say that the new Paradigm Sub25 is probably the best deal in subwoofers today, however. My latest experience with it tells me it is a game changer at $4000, and easily better than the Fathom f113.

I believe it was the head of JL Audio who mentioned in print that two F113s in tandem are equivalent to a Gotham. The consideration for making the Gotham was for people that lacked adequate space for two F113s. Other than that, putting two F113s together and linking them gives the same results as one Gotham. If you look at the specifications for both, you can see the truth in that statement. I based my decision for buying four F113s and placing them in pairs together on that engineering information.

So, I guess two Paradigm Sub25s side-by-side would be a game changer over a Gotham as well...
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post #998 of 1216
3/5/09 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Does your receiver have multiple LP filters for each main channel or only a single LP filter ?

Regards,

I'm not certain. It is the Denon AVP. Some are linked and some aren't (e.g., the front left and right are linked together, the side right and left are linked together and the back left and right are linked together IIRC), but I'm not sure if that is just at the user interface level and then electronically they each have their own filter...
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post #999 of 1216
3/5/09 at 1:20pm
BTW, the owner of JL Audio also mentioned that if he had the choice of two Gothams or four F113s, he would use the four F113s in a cross layout, as per the Harman paper for a flatter overall room response.

I went for one of the other setups in the Harman paper, the one for lower frequency extension, pairing subs at middle wall positions at opposing sides of the room...
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post #1000 of 1216
3/5/09 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHTFRED View Post

I have always found it easy to close my eyes and pick out which of the X-2's drivers is making which sound, thats not a good quality for a loudspeaker to have is it?


too bad as in all likelihood they weren't set up properly. Mine are absolutely invisible in my room
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post #1001 of 1216
3/5/09 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I'm not certain. It is the Denon AVP. Some are linked and some aren't (e.g., the front left and right are linked together, the side right and left are linked together and the back left and right are linked together IIRC), but I'm not sure if that is just at the user interface level and then electronically they each have their own filter...

I was asking out of curiosity because if the Denon doesn't have individual LP filters then whatever frequency you set the LP filter to (either 40 Hz or 60 Hz) will be negatively affected. For example, if set to 40 Hz (and the corresponding LP filter is 40 Hz) then if setting the rear surrounds to 60 Hz will mean that there is a gap between 40 Hz-60 Hz.

Hence me asking if your amp had several LP filters.

Regards,
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post #1002 of 1216
3/5/09 at 2:08pm
I don't know what he's talking about either.. Unless it is clear that the highs have to come from the tweeter, the mid from the mid and the lows from the woofers... but if there is one thing that the X-2 do, is to blend the drivers blend seamlessly at the listening position...
But to follow Ryderfan advice let's keep the thread on-Topics... The Bass power of the Rockport new line of speakers is quite remarkable. I, also, have heard from a friend that the bass power of the Altair is as powerful and extended as the bass coming from the Gotham.. I have not yet heard the Arakis nor the Altair but any speaker able to put out the quality and amount of bass bass one gets from the Gotham has to be extraordinary, in this region.
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post #1003 of 1216
3/5/09 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

I was asking out of curiosity because if the Denon doesn't have individual LP filters then whatever frequency you set the LP filter to (either 40 Hz or 60 Hz) will be negatively affected. For example, if set to 40 Hz (and the corresponding LP filter is 40 Hz) then if setting the rear surrounds to 60 Hz will mean that there is a gap between 40 Hz-60 Hz.

Hence me asking if your amp had several LP filters.

Regards,

I would assume they are separate. I doubt Denon would let you set them individually if they didn't work...
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post #1004 of 1216
3/5/09 at 2:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

So, I guess two Paradigm Sub25s side-by-side would be a game changer over a Gotham as well...

My guess, having heard them in separate rooms, would be a tentative "maybe." Two Sub25s would have more output than a Gotham. For a large HT intstallation, I'd take two Sub25s. For two-channel, I'd have to make the comparison -- the Gothams have set the standard for me in my room for subwoofers. But I would not be surprised if two Sub25s took the crown.
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post #1005 of 1216
3/5/09 at 3:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Fritz View Post

My guess, having heard them in separate rooms, would be a tentative "maybe." Two Sub25s would have more output than a Gotham. For a large HT intstallation, I'd take two Sub25s. For two-channel, I'd have to make the comparison -- the Gothams have set the standard for me in my room for subwoofers. But I would not be surprised if two Sub25s took the crown.

If you are using two Gothams, you would probably be better off getting four sub25s and stack them in pairs where you had the Gothams.
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post #1006 of 1216
3/5/09 at 3:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Fritz View Post

My guess, having heard them in separate rooms, would be a tentative "maybe." Two Sub25s would have more output than a Gotham. For a large HT intstallation, I'd take two Sub25s. For two-channel, I'd have to make the comparison -- the Gothams have set the standard for me in my room for subwoofers. But I would not be surprised if two Sub25s took the crown.

Back to the thread topic . . .

One additional note on the Arrakis: Since it is a four-way system, the pair's 15" bass drivers do operate as true subwoofers. They are crossed over at 80Hz. Four 15s in my room get, as Andy Payor calls it, lots of "traction." And that would be an understatement.
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post #1007 of 1216
3/5/09 at 3:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

If you are using two Gothams, you would probably be better off getting four sub25s and stack them in pairs where you had the Gothams.

I agree.
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post #1008 of 1216
3/5/09 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Fritz View Post

Back to the thread topic . . .

One additional note on the Arrakis: Since it is a four-way system, the pair's 15" bass drivers do operate as true subwoofers. They are crossed over at 80Hz. Four 15s in my room get, as Andy Payor calls it, lots of "traction." And that would be an understatement.

Hi jeff

I wonder if you are able to comment on an 'observation' of mine. (just by way of illustration, I use 18's as my bass driver)

Unlike most audiophiles, you have had the luxury of auditioning many many speakers in your own room (must have been a saint last lifetime and are now getting your rewards!) and also unlike most audiophiles you have seen many measurements of them in the room.

My observation? there is nothing like large woofers (in this case two 15's a side is it?) when it comes to the subjective bass experience.

We can take two systems that 'measure identically' in the bass region, one say having a ten or twelve inch woofer, the other having say two 15's a side (or in my case an 18 each side). looking at the measurements there 'should not be too much of a difference', yet in practice there is just that 'something' about the big woofers.

Has that been your experience? Have you had, for example, another pair of speakers (maybe not going as low as these, but to 30-35 hz even) with more conventional bass layouts, yet the weight and solidity which 'should' be the same, do they differ?
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post #1009 of 1216
3/5/09 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Fritz View Post

Back to the thread topic . . .

One additional note on the Arrakis: Since it is a four-way system, the pair's 15" bass drivers do operate as true subwoofers. They are crossed over at 80Hz. Four 15s in my room get, as Andy Payor calls it, lots of "traction." And that would be an understatement.

So your Watchdog is not participating as an active room treatment for this setup? You certainly don't need it for bass reproduction, but, then again, you didn't need it with the X-2s either.
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post #1010 of 1216
3/5/09 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Fritz View Post

Back to the thread topic . . .

One additional note on the Arrakis: Since it is a four-way system, the pair's 15" bass drivers do operate as true subwoofers. They are crossed over at 80Hz. Four 15s in my room get, as Andy Payor calls it, lots of "traction." And that would be an understatement.


Jeff, I find the crossover at 80Hz very interesting with respect to midbass especially when we consider an article you did on the Wilson XS with respect to this very issue.
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post #1011 of 1216
3/6/09 at 2:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Jeff, I find the crossover at 80Hz very interesting with respect to midbass especially when we consider an article you did on the Wilson XS with respect to this very issue.

The difference is that the subwoofers in the Arrakis are integrated into the speaker by the designer. It is an integral part of the full-range speaker. In fact, consider this: the woofers on your X-2s are crossed over even higher, somewhere in the neighborhood of 125Hz -- it is essentially a three-way speaker with a supertweeter. If you removed those woofers and replaced them with a sub playing to 125Hz do you think you'd get the same quality of sound? Of course not.

Contrast that with adding a subwoofer: Placement in relation to the main speaker's drivers, the phase relationship, etc., are all end-user defined, and therefore you stay out of trouble by choosing a crossover much lower in frequency. That's not to say you can't use an 80Hz crossover, many do and are successful, but IMO that perfect integration is part of what you're paying for when you buy something like an Arrakis -- you get super subwoofer extension and perfect integration with the whole, all in one package.
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post #1012 of 1216
3/6/09 at 3:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

Hi jeff

I wonder if you are able to comment on an 'observation' of mine. (just by way of illustration, I use 18's as my bass driver)

Unlike most audiophiles, you have had the luxury of auditioning many many speakers in your own room (must have been a saint last lifetime and are now getting your rewards!) and also unlike most audiophiles you have seen many measurements of them in the room.

My observation? there is nothing like large woofers (in this case two 15's a side is it?) when it comes to the subjective bass experience.

We can take two systems that 'measure identically' in the bass region, one say having a ten or twelve inch woofer, the other having say two 15's a side (or in my case an 18 each side). looking at the measurements there 'should not be too much of a difference', yet in practice there is just that 'something' about the big woofers.

Has that been your experience? Have you had, for example, another pair of speakers (maybe not going as low as these, but to 30-35 hz even) with more conventional bass layouts, yet the weight and solidity which 'should' be the same, do they differ?

This is a great question, and likely requires an answer from someone with more speaker-design and room-acoustic knowledge than me. Perhaps I can get Andy Payor to give me an answer on this I can post.

But yes, I do notice exactly what you describe. I have been told that larger drivers couple to the air better than smaller drivers, and that's what I need more information on. But I'm also finding that four-ways with dedicated subwoofers have an advantage over three ways with woofers that play much higher in frequency, but that also try to play low.

And one more, quoted form an online source: "When two or more subwoofers are positioned close to one another mutual coupling is the fortunate byproduct. This is due to the long wavelengths, associated with low frequencies, causing constructive superposition. For mutual coupling, the subwoofers must be placed within 1/2 a wavelength of one another (85Hz upper crossover frequency 1/2 wavelength is approximately 2m). For example, two subwoofers give a 6dB increase in acoustical output at the listening position." The point is that multiple large subs are really cool.
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post #1013 of 1216
3/6/09 at 3:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_Morr View Post

So your Watchdog is not participating as an active room treatment for this setup? You certainly don't need it for bass reproduction, but, then again, you didn't need it with the X-2s either.

Actually, he did need low frequency room correction with the X-2s, Bill*. Electronic room correction (equalization) was not an option with that system. We did not want to insert another piece of equipment into the reproduction chain.

But the current TWBAS contains the Behold APU768, which can do equalization via the ADP192 module. It should resolve the room's low frequency modal issues.

With your Meridian system, we face the same issue that Jeff originally had. No EQ. So we must resort to other means to perform low frequency room correction.

Regards,
Terry

* Sorry, I reread your posting more carefully, and realized that you clearly said "for bass reproduction." That is certainly true. Anyway, the above info may still be useful. - T
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post #1014 of 1216
3/6/09 at 4:40am
The SigTech AEC-1000 used to be a good solution for Meridian systems.
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post #1015 of 1216
3/6/09 at 5:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Fritz View Post

The difference is that the subwoofers in the Arrakis are integrated into the speaker by the designer. It is an integral part of the full-range speaker. In fact, consider this: the woofers on your X-2s are crossed over even higher, somewhere in the neighborhood of 125Hz -- it is essentially a three-way speaker with a supertweeter. If you removed those woofers and replaced them with a sub playing to 125Hz do you think you'd get the same quality of sound? Of course not.

Contrast that with adding a subwoofer: Placement in relation to the main speaker's drivers, the phase relationship, etc., are all end-user defined, and therefore you stay out of trouble by choosing a crossover much lower in frequency. That's not to say you can't use an 80Hz crossover, many do and are successful, but IMO that perfect integration is part of what you're paying for when you buy something like an Arrakis -- you get super subwoofer extension and perfect integration with the whole, all in one package.

One more point that just came to me: you're not just optimizing low bass response with a large four way that includes integral subs, but the designer has the ability to optimize what goes on above. So in a speaker like the Arrakis, the midbass is reproduced by dedicated midbass drivers -- they aren't handling low bass. And the mids are then optimized for midrange frequencies, because they aren't doing midbass, etc.

Now of course there's more opportunities to screw up as the speaker becomes more complex, but that's another issue altogether . . .
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post #1016 of 1216
3/6/09 at 5:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

The SigTech AEC-1000 used to be a good solution for Meridian systems.

Actually, I have something more sophisticated and interesting in mind. But tapping into Meridian's proprietary SpeakerLink connection is an issue. This is being worked on.

- Terry
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post #1017 of 1216
3/6/09 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

The SigTech AEC-1000 used to be a good solution for Meridian systems.

It was indeed. I remember when we set that system up in your home when you had Meridians. Digital out of the source to digital into the SigTech to digital out the the Meridian speaker.

It's still a great product but not easy to set up and of course, the company went due south. I still have 4 of them, only one of which still works.

A better solution is to be able to start from scratch on a custom room where the ONLY criteria is to make the best room acoustically as possible ... regardless of the size of the room or the acoustic treatment required. I have only heard one such room and it is an eye-opener. No room correction required. You would have to see the Impulse Response and Frequency Response to believe it ---- and then listen to it.

I'm anxious to hear what the TWBAS room sounds like when all is complete. Ought to be a killer.
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post #1018 of 1216
3/6/09 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Montlick View Post

Actually, he did need low frequency room correction with the X-2s, Bill*. Electronic room correction (equalization) was not an option with that system. We did not want to insert another piece of equipment into the reproduction chain.

But the current TWBAS contains the Behold APU768, which can do equalization via the ADP192 module. It should resolve the room's low frequency modal issues.

With your Meridian system, we face the same issue that Jeff originally had. No EQ. So we must resort to other means to perform low frequency room correction.

Regards,
Terry

* Sorry, I reread your posting more carefully, and realized that you clearly said "for bass reproduction." That is certainly true. Anyway, the above info may still be useful. - T

It has got to be incredibly cool to have that much "surface area" (4 x 15") in that listening room for bass. It kind of reminds me of my gigging days. Still, their position in the room is fixed based on the need to have the higher frequency drivers in particular positions. I didn't realize the Behold was applying EQ. Does it report out what filters it applies? That would be very interesting data.

OT Re: Meridian Speakerlink - It's balanced digital audio so it may be as simple as building a RJ45 to XLR adapter and finding a balanced digital audio delay. Still working on it.
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post #1019 of 1216
3/6/09 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_Morr View Post

I didn't realize the Behold was applying EQ. Does it report out what filters it applies? That would be very interesting data.

Generically, any filtering applied to a signal for room correction is termed EQ. I don't know the first thing about the signal processing details of the ADP192 module. However, if it is state-of-the-art (and I can't imagine it is not), it is implementing a multi-rate FIR filter with a large number of taps. The concept of specific 2nd order resonances, as on a parametric equalizer, typically does not apply.

In some multi-rate filtering schemes, though, the lowest rate uses a digital implementation of a set of conventional biquad filters (each with a Q, center frequency, etc.). One reason is to assure minimum delay at low frequencies.

Regards,
Terry
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post #1020 of 1216
3/6/09 at 3:27pm
Hi

What would it take to make an acoustically ideal room? The sole purpose of this room would be Music Listening. 2-Channel for now but with an eye toward MC. Would thaat become a lab or a livable space? ... How you Terry, would rate Jeff's room in that regard? What were the constraints that made it difficult/impossible to achieve this goal?
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