or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Sony VPL-HW10 Owners AND Calibration Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Sony VPL-HW10 Owners AND Calibration Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 780
Thread Starter 
1) adjust your range of side to side screen position from one extreme to the other, then make sure you are in the center of this range of movement. Then physically rotate the projector to center the image on the screen. It sounds like you may have your projector aimed to the right and are compensating with the lens side/side adjustment. This will allow for (+) vertical keystone on the right side of the screen, which you have noted.

You must always have the projector vertically and horizontally square to the screen to eliminate keystone and allow the lens shift to work properly.

When a projector has keystone when perfectly square to the screen, the solution is to move or rotate or elevate the projector in the direction of the (+) keystone and then use the lens shift to center the image back on the screen. You will begin to see the keystone reduce.

It's a little confusing, but you might get a better handle on the relationship if you experiment with various projector angles and screen position settings on a larger white wall, then you will be able to see keystone changes and how they relate projector alignment and screen position controls.

Good luck
post #62 of 780
I'm trying to setup my HW10, which is my first projector, and I'm having a bit of trouble. I'm trying to use the alignment grid to setup the lens shift, focus, and zoom so the image fits my screen properly. However, the top right corner seems to be out. I can get the bottom grid line to be parallel to the bottom of my frame but the top grid line veers off of the screen in the top right corner. It starts okay on the right side but angles up until its actually on the frame of the screen on the right side. Does this mean that my screen isn't hanging plum? Is there any other possible explanation?

Just to give some details about my setup. the unit is table mounted and the screen I'm using is a Da-Lite Cinema Contour fixed-frame.

I'd appreciate any help/tips anyone could give me on setting this up properly.

Thanks.
post #63 of 780
I just tried that Glose Reg Iris trick and I think I like it! I haven't figured out how to objectively measure it, but subjectively the blacks look deep now. Together with great colors the picture looks just... well, stunning.
post #64 of 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post


It was only my eyes that would have offered critiques on a few of the extreme high and low APL scenes which exhibit the weaknesses in the projector's ANSI and native contrast. In general, unless the AE3000 offers something really special, I believe I am going to be an official HW10 owner.

Bytehoven,

I would be interested in comments on the "refinement" of the Sony image vs. the Panasonic (or *any* LCD) assuming all things equal. I had hoped to move from a current LCD to LCOS via the JVC but the whacking of the Cdn dollar in the past two months has me revising my strategy.

For me LCDs (inclusive of the Smoothscreened Panasonic) offer an image that is not as "subtle" or "elegant" (for me) as LCOS based boxes. I've never completely concluded that it is simply an image structure thing, the quality is simply different - a matter of taste.

I know that what I am asking is not quantifiable but as a gent whose music I can hear (and your obvious experience) I am interested in these "squishy" subjective impressions.

ted
post #65 of 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvted View Post

Bytehoven,

I would be interested in comments on the "refinement" of the Sony image vs. the Panasonic (or *any* LCD) assuming all things equal. I had hoped to move from a current LCD to LCOS via the JVC but the whacking of the Cdn dollar in the past two months has me revising my strategy.

For me LCDs (inclusive of the Smoothscreened Panasonic) offer an image that is not as "subtle" or "elegant" (for me) as LCOS based boxes. I've never completely concluded that it is simply an image structure thing, the quality is simply different - a matter of taste.

I know that what I am asking is not quantifiable but as a gent whose music I can hear (and your obvious experience) I am interested in these "squishy" subjective impressions.

ted

Refined and elegant are words I can relate to when comparing the picture of the HW-10 to an Epson 1080ub. The LCD still has more of a "digital" feel for me, whereas the SXRD has a smooth yet sharp look that is more pleasing to my eyes.
post #66 of 780
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizm View Post

I just tried that Glose Reg Iris trick and I think I like it! I haven't figured out how to objectively measure it, but subjectively the blacks look deep now. Together with great colors the picture looks just... well, stunning.

Whew! ... I'm glad it's not just me!

Do you have any calibration DVDs like DVE or Avia?

I ask because, while a full black out scene on a movie might work, there is no way to be sure it's full 0 IRE black and not a higher value. Could be 7.5 IRE.

To be safe, you might increase the CLOSE REG to the point where you just start to notice a change in projected brightness as you switch between auto iris 2 and Manual Iris .
post #67 of 780
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbickle View Post

Refined and elegant are words I can relate to when comparing the picture of the HW-10 to an Epson 1080ub. The LCD still has more of a "digital" feel for me, whereas the SXRD has a smooth yet sharp look that is more pleasing to my eyes.

Refinement, is a great word.

LCD as on the Espon 1080UB does not have the fill pattern of the Sony SXRD. I expect the AE3000 to be similar to the Espon. In this regard, the better fill on the SXRD/LCos/DLIA pixel structure provides a smoothness with out loss of detail.

At a long enough distance from the screen, the difference is hard to notice. But as you move closer to the screen, the SXRD/LCos image continues to remain smooth while the LCD begins to change and eventually reveal SDE.

I don't think we are ever going to be close enough to the LCD projected image for SDE to be a real issue. However, the quality of perceived refinement is something you might notice at typically viewing distances, and thus SXRD/LCos/DLIA have an advantage.
post #68 of 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

Refinement, is a great word.

LCD as on the Espon 1080UB does not have the fill pattern of the Sony SXRD. I expect the AE3000 to be similar to the Espon. In this regard, the better fill on the SXRD/LCos/DLIA pixel structure provides a smoothness with out loss of detail.

At a long enough distance from the screen, the difference is hard to notice. But as you move closer to the screen, the SXRD/LCos image continues to remain smooth while the LCD begins to change and eventually reveal SDE.

I don't think we are ever going to be close enough to the LCD projected image for SDE to be a real issue. However, the quality of perceived refinement is something you might notice at typically viewing distances, and thus SXRD/LCos/DLIA have an advantage.

People tend to forget elegance is a concept utilized in physics and mathematics.....and music.

I'm not convinced its simply fill factor/image structure - the Panasonics do rather well in this regard. Uniformity is another quality where I feel LCOS is more consistent.

Regardless, this is not the thread - comparisons please, and if you are comfortable with elegiac terms, beat me DaddyO.

ted
post #69 of 780
I'm currently projecting from 18ft with my existing hc5000, I take it the sony would be unsuitable projecting from this distance,

regards,

Neil
post #70 of 780
how big an image were you trying to match??
post #71 of 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

Yes, the HW10 comes with Image Director 3, and but for the fact Sony still uses a RS232 (?) connection, it should be easy to dive into GAMMA tweaks.

Bytehoven... are you sure about this? My HW10 did not come with Image Director 3 CD-ROM (and it is not listed in the Operating Instructions either). If you DO have it and it works with HW10 how about sharing it with us that did not get it ?
post #72 of 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

1) adjust your range of side to side screen position from one extreme to the other, then make sure you are in the center of this range of movement. Then physically rotate the projector to center the image on the screen. It sounds like you may have your projector aimed to the right and are compensating with the lens side/side adjustment. This will allow for (+) vertical keystone on the right side of the screen, which you have noted.

You must always have the projector vertically and horizontally square to the screen to eliminate keystone and allow the lens shift to work properly.

When a projector has keystone when perfectly square to the screen, the solution is to move or rotate or elevate the projector in the direction of the (+) keystone and then use the lens shift to center the image back on the screen. You will begin to see the keystone reduce.

It's a little confusing, but you might get a better handle on the relationship if you experiment with various projector angles and screen position settings on a larger white wall, then you will be able to see keystone changes and how they relate projector alignment and screen position controls.

Good luck

Bytehoven,

Thanks for these tips in getting the projector lined up. It definitely was a bit more work than I thought to get the projector squared up to the screen but I think I am close now and have been able to reduce the keystoning.

Does anyone know if there is a way to get the alignment grid to stay up on the screen longer than what it does now? I'm constantly having to go into the menus to turn it on and then quickly do some adjustments before it turns off.

Thanks.
post #73 of 780
Updated light output readings in Auto Iris mode set to OFF with a Minolta CS100a probe

As far as the light output is concerned, in my setup from a distance of 12 feet on a 106 diag screen, I am getting those results with the Auto Iris set to OFF in 6500K calibrated Cinema mode:

On a Carada of 1.0 gain in high lamp mode : 558 lumens (16.7 F.L.), Low lamp : 381 lumens (11.4F.L.).

On a Carada of 1.4 gain in high lamp mode : 638 lumens (19.1 F.L.), Low lamp : 438 lumens (13.1 F.L.).


As you can see, the Carada BW is giving an increase of 15% over the regular white (and not 40% as the specification is suggesting…)

In Dynamic mode, color set to high I got 631 lumens with the Carada 1.0 and 725 with the Carada 1.4

I think that the Carada 1.0 is probably giving about 0.95 gain and the BW about 1.1 gain, since my beige wall with an very low gloss finish (lower than eggshell) is giving me more lumens than the Carada 1.0.

The Carada BW is giving a marginal increase, but also lifts a little bit the blacks. My personal choice would be to go with the plain white in order to keep the blacks as inky as possible.

Pierre
post #74 of 780
Pierre, thanks for the measurements. I've got a 1.0 gain 110" screen, throw distance is going to be 12,5 feet. Looks like i'll be using the bulb in high mode. It seems theres going to be enough punch with movies. For gaming my setup might lack brightness. We will see, hopefully i'll get my hands on a HW10 before Christmas.
post #75 of 780
Since i have my HW10 since Friday and many have asked about Gaming capabilities i figured i'd do ya all the favour and play a few hours of Bioshock (I know, how unselfish of me, it was purely scientific )
I had to play on 720p since my 10m HDMI cables all cr'pped out on me at 60Hz and i did not figure a way to fix the framerate to a lower level (suggestions welcome, please via PM, don't wanna go too far OT. )
The results i find very impressing: When trying to pay attention to it i beleive i noticed a really tiny, almost imperceivable lag which did not affect me during play at all, still had the aim spot on
When playing competitive shooters which i beleive to be the most lag-influenced way of gaming you might notice, but for me as a strategic and occasional shooter-gamer i find the PJ to be just great. Just gotta love it when the Splicers appear in life-size in front of you^^ I actually found it very much fun to sit only about 5-6 feet from the screen (only 4:3 filled due to the reduced resolution of 1290x720) and really being emersed. I wouldn't wanna try it with F.E.A.R. or similar though^^
Enough OT, i just can tell you that i find the PJ very suitable for gaming, i will try to run the Input-Lag as well (would be against my Asus VW221U, afaik one of the fastest LCDs on the market...)

Cheers, to all the other happy owners.

BTW: What serial number does your PJ have? mine seems to be the 996th, i wonder if anyone here has the 1000th
post #76 of 780
Thanks Mr. Pyro for the gaming feedback, and that would be great if you did the input lag test!
post #77 of 780
Here's my measurements after greyscale calibration. I had to push red up a lot with Red Gain and had to lower Contrast from 90 to 86 to compensate because red was running out at 100 IRE. I should mention that these measurements have been made using full field test screens and all settings at their defaults in Cinema mode except Lamp Control was set to Low i.e. Gamma1, Auto1 and Recommended, etc. Had no time to adjust colors at all but they are almost perfect as they are now.
LL
LL
LL
LL
post #78 of 780
Given the RED run out, does anyone think this box is a cadidate for a CC filter calibration?

Is the lens threaded, and if so, does anyone know the filter size?

I'm one of those oddballs who is happier with low ftl (room is a coal mine) so lumens loss is not a major issue.

ted
post #79 of 780
Thread Starter 
The lens is not threaded, but with the right size filter, it could be taped in place because the front edges of the lens used for adjustment are a 1/2" or so. Plenty of area to use metal tape.

HOYA FL DAY might be a good filter to supplement RED and bring down black levels just a tad.
post #80 of 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

tarking..

Would you mind posting what RGB bias/gain and RCP changes you made?

Also, what probe/software and test patterns did you use for your calibration?

Thanks

RJ
...

I do not have the numbers right now, I'll post them later. However I noticed that with greyscale ramp there was a red tint at 90 IRE that was not evident when displaying 90 IRE test pattern only. I had to lower the contrast to 80 - 81 to get rid of the red tint so I started over.

I lowered blue and green gain, increased red a little and put contrast back up to 90. This time I got even better greyscale measurement and gamma tracks better 2.22 target.

I tried to play with RCP too but it ruined my "perfect" greyscale (too much red now).

I have i1 Display 2 probe, ColorHCFR SW and AVS HD test pattern disc (HD DVD version). Player is Toshiba HD-XE1 (i.e. HD-XA2) and screen fabric is HCG (Projecta = Da-lite).

I am a novice in calibration so all tips and help are welcome. I am not sure if I should measure/calibrate with dynamic iris off and using window patters or can I measure/calibrate with dynamic iris on and using full field patterns? I plan to use iris on Auto1.

EDIT: I used no RCP when measuring these or with my earlier measurements.
LL
LL
post #81 of 780
After going back and forth, and speaking with several competent screen gurus at Da-Lite and a few others, I decided to go with the Cinema Contour with the Cinema Vision Screen. Although this screen is very slightly gray, I chose it because of the 1.3 gain.

Again, this will be on a 96" screen from about 9' 9". I am hoping that I can switch to low light mode and still have enough brightness. Either way, I should have some options. Most I spoke with did NOT recommend a pure white screen, but also not a pure gray screen. So there you have it. I should have some reviews to share about my decision later this weekend.

Mark
post #82 of 780
I think I have got this projector dialed in! I did not touch or measure the colors but I am very happy with the picture!!!

The only problem I now face is that on bright scenes I can see the holes in my screen from the front row 13' away. I could before with my Sony HS20 but now the picture is so perfect the holes are more of an eye sore. I need to put my center speaker behind the screen, if anyone has any screen recommendations let me know. I like the 1.3 gain of the HCCV but not the hole pattern.

Here's the specifics:

Meter:\tX-Rite i1Pro spectrophotometer
Display:\tSONY VPL-HW10
Screen:\t110" Da-Lite Cinema Perf HC
Hours:\t20
Input:\tHDMI 1
Picture Mode:\tCinema
Iris Setting:\tOff
Lamp:\tLow
Contrast:\t80
Brightness:\t50
Color:\t53
Hue:\t50
> Gain:\t1\t0\t-9
> Bias:\t1\t6\t3
Sharpness:\t42\t\t
Noise Reduction:\tOff\t\t
Film Mode:\tAuto\t\t
Black Level Adj.\tOff\t\t
Gamma Correction:\tGamma 3\t\t
x.v. Color\tOff\t\t
Color Space:\tNormal\t\t
RCP: \tOff\t\t
Wide Mode:\tFull\t\t
Over Scan:\tOff

 

2008-11-02_SonyVPL-HW10_Gamma.pdf 45.755859375k . file

 

2008-11-02_SonyVPL-HW10_GS.pdf 99.3642578125k . file
post #83 of 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepsi View Post

I like the 1.3 gain of the HCCV but not the hole pattern.


You should try to find a weaved screen, I do not know who makes them and if they are available with gain, but they look better than the ones with holes when you need an acoustically transparent screen...
post #84 of 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

Hey pepsi... what calibration software is that? Is that CalMAN?

yes it's CalMAN v 3.1.1
post #85 of 780
Here's my numbers as promised earlier.

Cinema Mode
Iris: Auto1, Recommended
Lamp Mode: Low
Black Level Adj.: Off
Color Space: Normal
Gamma Correction: Gamma1
x.v.Color: Off
RCP: Off

Contrast: 90 (default)
Brightness: 50 (default)
Color: 50 (default)
Hue: 50 (default)

Color Temp: Custom 3

Gain

R: +5
G: -8
B: -9

Bias:

R: -2
G: 0
B: 0

Haven't tweaked colors yet because they look really good and natural to me. Color should be around 47 instead of 50 but then I should calibrate greyscale again and I want to watch movies for a while .
post #86 of 780
Thread Starter 
post #87 of 780
As a HW10 owner and projector newb I have a question:

Why are the black bars, when displaying 2.35:1 material on a 16:9 screen, brighter than the blacks in the source material? I was watching The Brave One tonight and there was a lot of dark material that was much darker than the bars that were above and below. Obviously the projector can display deeper blacks than what the bars are at so why can't the bars be darker? Is there a way to make those bars darker?

Thanks
post #88 of 780
lorenmc
That is perception for you.
I doubt that there would be a significant difference if you measured black above and below and compared with black in the picture.
For this reason masking the top and bottom with black velvet material gives a good percetual boost to the picture. You can do a Do It Yourself style masking solution or buy screens with electrical masking for 2.35:1 content.
post #89 of 780
What sharpness setting are you running?
I have be told by someone I trust to set sharpness at between 10-20 depending on the source. Isn´t sharpness of 40+ oversharpening the picture. What is your experience? Did you set a 40+ with DVE or any other calibration disc?
post #90 of 780
Thread Starter 
Iorenmc...

the difference in black is an optical illusion, however it's one of the reasons many folks chose to have some form of screen masking for 2.35:1 format viewing.

Ohlson... I did an informal check for sharpness/ringing on movie titles, and <25> was the value at which ringing went away. The number may be lower with a clean resolution/sharpness test pattern.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Sony VPL-HW10 Owners AND Calibration Thread