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Theories on the pervasive BD playback failures?? - Page 6

post #151 of 210
Do you have any figures to support the idea that more people buy PS3's as Blu-Ray players than buy all the standalones combined? Because I don't think that's even close to being true. It's one thing to own a video game machine because you want to play games and oh, by the way you can watch movies. But I don't know a single soul who is not a video game player who has bought a PS3 just to watch movies instead of buying a $300-ish standalone player.

Don't confuse people who post on Internet forums with the consumer electronics market as a whole. Target don't have shelves of Blu-Ray players just for the heck of it.
post #152 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

I watched "Iron Man" on Blu-ray disc last night. My 40 GB PS3 loaded the movie quickly; play back was smooth/quiet, no problems whatsoever.

I watched Sleeping Beauty on my BD30 and it loaded quickly with no attempt to connect to the internet to download extras which extends load time.
post #153 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vmk2 View Post

I wonder what is the interest of CEs in producing BD players when obviously the vast majority is going to buy a PS3, which is a reliable machine and overrall a great machine ...at least they should have for SA BD players made an ethernet port mandatory for easier updates IMHO.

And..... where is your data that back up your claims that the VAST majority of people buy PS3's for blu-ray players?
post #154 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

I also used that 90%. I just guesstimated. I don't think we're too far off though. If you think about it, is anyone gonna buy a new player just so he can do stuff on the net!

Actually if and when Blu-ray goes mainstream I think this will be one of the driving forces. The interactivity the players offer will be a lot more noticeable than the improved image/sound on smaller sets. Regarding the 90% (of potential market base) since even 100% of current owners haven't seen what they will implement it sounds rather silly to me.

Again Blu-ray players were designed to not just offer better video and audio than DVD players. Rather it's a platform to deliver interactive media. One that's still a long ways away but they have to walk before they can run.
post #155 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by 24Plasmaman View Post

I watched Sleeping Beauty on my BD30 and it loaded quickly with no attempt to connect to the internet to download extras which extends load time.

I hear you.

It was inconvenient to press (2) buttons on my BT remote and select the "no" response for the Internet download prompt before watching the movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

And..... where is your data that back up your claims that the VAST majority of people buy PS3's for blu-ray players?

I will attest to that. The only gaming done on my PS3 is by my 10-year-old nephew.
post #156 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Blu-Ray was released before it was done due to the threat from "the other format which must not be named". As it turns out, that tactic worked.

But the Blu-Ray spec didn't actually stop changing until this year. And the DTS-HD MA portion of it is still struggling.

We are still very much in the "early adopter" period with Blu-Ray.
--Bob

+1 on all three points. The BDA didn't have much choice but to push it out when it did. They were in a classic "Damned if you do and Damned if you don't" situation. What we've been seeing lately are the repercussions of "damned if you do".

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

And..... where is your data that back up your claims that the VAST majority of people buy PS3's for blu-ray players?

I don't know that is the sole reason people buy a PS3, but it's hard to refute the fact that there are more PS3s out there than any other Blu-Ray player.

One thing's for sure, continuous stories about playback issues on are not going to encourage wider adoption. It doesn't matter if the issue is isolated to a handful of players on old firmware, because that part of the story doesn't get out, only that there was a problem.

BluFocus needs to get a move on.
post #157 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vmk2 View Post

I wonder what is the interest of CEs in producing BD players when obviously the vast majority is going to buy a PS3, which is a reliable machine and overrall a great machine ...at least they should have for SA BD players made an ethernet port mandatory for easier updates IMHO.

CEs can always pick some low hanging fruit -- customers who buy by brand name. Dealers also want to be able to sell a set of products to a customer, and that's always easier if a given brand offers a complete set of products.

You've also got to remember that the main reason for CE excitement with Blu-Ray is not the player sales, and not even the discs sales (only some CE's are also studios). It's the chance to entice customers to replace OTHER products -- receivers and displays primarily. Blu-Ray is a driver for early replacement of those product lines. Anything that gets people to re-buy something they've ALREADY bought sooner -- or become first time buyers sooner than they otherwise would, gets the manufacturers all tingly with anticipation.
--Bob
post #158 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

But I don't know a single soul who is not a video game player who has bought a PS3 just to watch movies instead of buying a $300-ish standalone player.

Ooh, Ooh, Ooh! *raises hand way up* Pick me! Pick me!

I did.
--Bob
post #159 of 210
From Engadget:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/04/22...se-until-2013/

Quote:


Analyst: PS3 to lead Blu-ray installed base until 2013
by Richard Lawler, posted Apr 22nd 2008 at 7:32PM

Blu-ray still has a lot of convincing to do before ABI believes it's the future, mostly because of upconverting DVD players. According to the analyst's figures, while 35% of DVD players sold today (that low?) upconvert, 60% will by 2013 (again, that low?). The state of Blu-ray hardware going forward isn't to their liking either, with principal analyst Steve Wilson stating "studios better hope that people are playing movies on their Playstations. Otherwise there's very little installed base." With PS3s accounting for 85% of Blu-ray players in 2008, ABI doesn't see things evening out until 2013, with high prices for dedicated players keeping sales volume lower than studios would like. Of course, ABI also saw combo drives as the next big thing in 2012, so we wouldn't return all of our high def discs just yet.

--Bob
post #160 of 210
From DVDFILE.COM:

http://www.dvdfile.com/article/blu-r...s-report-12500

Quote:


PS3 sales in the States hovered at about 3 million by the end at 2007; when surveyed, 87% of PS3 owners responded that they watch Blu-ray Discs on their game console. The EMA believes the PS3 will be surpassed in 2009 by dedicated Blu-ray Disc players. Market research firms estimate that by 2012, the worldwide installed base of Blu-ray Disc players will range from 100 to 130 million homes. Annual sales of Blu-ray Disc players of all kinds are estimated to reach 57.4 million units by 2012. Europe will lead with 26.4 million units, the U.S. will buy 22.6 million units, and Japan will buy 8.4 million units.

That 2009 estimate is, I believe, rate of unit sales going forward as opposed to catching up with the already sold installed base of PS3s.

--Bob
post #161 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

From DVDFILE.COM:

http://www.dvdfile.com/article/blu-r...s-report-12500



That 2009 estimate is, I believe, rate of unit sales going forward as opposed to catching up with the already sold installed base of PS3s.

--Bob

130 million units worldwide by 2012? How many billions of people are there in this world (6.7 billion)? I think HD downloads through a company like Blockbuster, or Netflix will be the norm by 2012.
post #162 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post


You've also got to remember that the main reason for CE excitement with Blu-Ray is not the player sales, and not even the discs sales (only some CE's are also studios). It's the chance to entice customers to replace OTHER products -- receivers and displays primarily. Blu-Ray is a driver for early replacement of those product lines. Anything that gets people to re-buy something they've ALREADY bought sooner -- or become first time buyers sooner than they otherwise would, gets the manufacturers all tingly with anticipation.
--Bob

bingo ! I absolutely agree with you on that.
post #163 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

130 million units worldwide by 2012? How many billions of people are there in this world (6.7 billion)? I think HD downloads through a company like Blockbuster, or Netflix will be the norm by 2012.

That's probably a debate for another thread.

The key item to take away from those two cited threads is that, at the moment, the PS3 really is the player studios need to concentrate on if they want to sell discs this year (and next year for that matter).

In addition, the PS3 is a stable platform while the stand-alone players are still going through significant generation churn. For example, Pioneer's latest players are an all new platform -- which means more chances for new bugs. Higher degrees of "standardized" chip integration will eventually solve that, but it hasn't happened yet.

The combo of studios concentrating on the PS3 and the very newness of the platforms sold as standalone are probably the key factors in the lack of robustness out there right now.

And then there's my personal bugaboo, which is that DTS-HD MA has been a disaster for the Blu-Ray roll out -- diverting WAY too much engineering (and authoring) attention and yielding only trivial advantage.

Somewhat to my surprise, HDMI has not been as big a problem for Blu-Ray roll out as I thought it would be.
--Bob
post #164 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

130 million units worldwide by 2012? How many billions of people are there in this world (6.7 billion)? I think HD downloads through a company like Blockbuster, or Netflix will be the norm by 2012.


I would love that too, except even by then which is really only 3 years away the infrastructure still isnt there to have quality HD downloads with better than 720p and DD 5.1 download withing a reasonable amount of time.
post #165 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

That's probably a debate for another thread.

The key item to take away from those two cited threads is that, at the moment, the PS3 really is the player studios need to concentrate on if they want to sell discs this year (and next year for that matter).

In addition, the PS3 is a stable platform while the stand-alone players are still going through significant generation churn. For example, Pioneer's latest players are an all new platform -- which means more chances for new bugs. Higher degrees of "standardized" chip integration will eventually solve that, but it hasn't happened yet.

The combo of studios concentrating on the PS3 and the very newness of the platforms sold as standalone are probably the key factors in the lack of robustness out there right now.

And then there's my personal bugaboo, which is that DTS-HD MA has been a disaster for the Blu-Ray roll out -- diverting WAY too much engineering (and authoring) attention and yielding only trivial advantage.

Somewhat to my surprise, HDMI has not been as big a problem for Blu-Ray roll out as I thought it would be.
--Bob

Your a PCM guy, do tell? I must not have been paying close enough attention? I still believe that PCM tracks are the way to go and when BD first came out the majority of the discs I bought had PCM and sound really good. While DTS MA and D Tru HD are good and lossless, blah blah I am more than content with and would even prefer PCM as a PS3 owner.
post #166 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

From Engadget:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/04/22...se-until-2013/



--Bob

This ARTICAL makes the ASSUMPTION that all PS3 owners player blu-ray discs.

Where is the data to back up this ASSUMTION ?

What is the attach rate of PS3 vs SAL blu-ray players?

Lets get some scientific data to back up that the PS3 base is buying 85% of disc titles to substanciate the 85% player base.
post #167 of 210
I'll bet the vast majority of gamers (e.g. my 10-year-old nephew) already have gaming consoles (e.g. WII, PS2, he does, Xbox, he does not) and many individuals buying a PS3 are looking towards that platform for Blu-ray disc not more EA renditions of Madden NFL.

It's hard to justify spending $999 for a BDP-95FD that can't render 1080p24fps any better than a $399 80 GB PS3.
post #168 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post


It's hard to justify spending $999 for a BDP-95FD that can't render 1080p24fps any better than a $399 80 GB PS3.

Does the PS3 have analog out yet? IR remote? Does it still crank out heat and look like a George Forman grill?
This PS3 cheer leading is getting tedious.
J
post #169 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big J View Post

Does the PS3 have analog out yet?

No, but I don't watch much SDTV on my PRO-150FD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big J View Post

IR remote?

No, but my PS3 bundle included Sony's $20 Blu-ray remote. It works great: starts the movie, stops the movie, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big J View Post

Does it still crank out heat and look like a George Forman grill?
J

I have a 40 GB PS3, which generates no more heat than any other A/V component in my rack. I'm more concerned about the heat being generated by some of the newer AVRs (e.g. TX-NR906) but this doesn't seem to stop anyone from buying those devices either.

You can nitpick yourself out of any purchase, but unless you have a PS3 you're really missing out.
post #170 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

The huge failure rate on the new Bond movies really intensified my curiosity ..............

I always see Samsung as a problem, but they are a lower end manufacturer.. so I can see many hardware cuts and less proactive firmware releases.

Am I right or totally out of my element as a theorizing troubleshooter??

Jeff, I agree with many of the points you made on the first post.
FWIW I do believe that this whole DTS MA "issue" could have been avoided, but that is water under the bridge..... and here we are, still waiting for this FW up-date on certain players....
As for the Samsung comment, well you may be correct that the company may not be the illustriuos, high end manufacture, but my BDP 1400, (temporary player- a gift from my electronics Dealer/friend) has yet to produce a dropped frame, audio glitch, freeze up or anything else.
Can you say that about the new Pioneers (which I do want the BD 51),Dennons of this world?

Paul
post #171 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

This ARTICAL makes the ASSUMPTION that all PS3 owners player blu-ray discs.

Where is the data to back up this ASSUMTION ?

What is the attach rate of PS3 vs SAL blu-ray players?

Lets get some scientific data to back up that the PS3 base is buying 85% of disc titles to substanciate the 85% player base.

This is precisely why I posted the second article in the very next post showing the survey results that 87% of PS3 owners play Blu-Ray on their PS3.

It took all of 5 minutes on Google to find these two reports. There's lots of this stuff out there. Check it out.

I think the belief that the PS3 is the dominant platform for Blu-Ray playback at the moment is pretty sound. The only serious disagreement is how much longer that will last.

-------------------------------------

And to the folks frustrated that the PS3 is once again being touted in this thread: You don't have to LIKE the PS3 to recognize that it is, nevertheless, the dominant platform at the moment. The studios act on that. And that's a major factor in why there are so few playback problems with new discs on the PS3 (presuming you are running the current firmware).
--Bob
post #172 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

No, but I don't watch much SDTV on my PRO-150FD. No, but my PS3 bundle included Sony's $20 Blu-ray remote. It works great: starts the movie, stops the movie, etc.I have a 40 GB PS3, which generates no more heat than any other A/V component in my rack. I'm more concerned about the heat being generated by some of the newer AVRs (e.g. TX-NR906) but this doesn't seem to stop anyone from buying those devices either.

You can nitpick yourself out of any purchase, but unless you have a PS3 you're really missing out.

I think he may have meant analog audio? I shared a PS3 that my roommate owned early on when HD-DVD was still around. It's a great machine, no denying. It's not as good for me as the S550 I just bought. If Sony didn't get this player right after pioneering the medium, I'll never buy Sony again including a PS3! That being said, I think the format is as temporary as DVD if not more so. I agree with a previous poster in that the future is HD VOD.
post #173 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big J View Post

Does the PS3 have analog out yet? IR remote? Does it still crank out heat and look like a George Forman grill?
This PS3 cheer leading is getting tedious.
J


not near as much as these "issues" which are not really issues for most of us and for those that they are issues they could be worked around and tolerated and accepted.
post #174 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big J View Post

Does the PS3 have analog out yet? IR remote? Does it still crank out heat and look like a George Forman grill?
This PS3 cheer leading is getting tedious.
J

bringing up these issues is getting tedious: it is a red herring in my opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slumberer View Post

That being said, I think the format is as temporary as DVD if not more so. I agree with a previous poster in that the future is HD VOD.

disagree: DVD has been around a long, long time and HD VOD still has a long way to go to be considered mainstream: BD audio and picture quality will trump any VOD for many years

I would not characterize the playback issues as pervasive: look for some new players to come to market soon that have most of these issues resolved
post #175 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

bringing up these issues is getting tedious: it is a red herring in my opinion



disagree: DVD has been around a long, long time and HD VOD still has a long way to go to be considered mainstream: BD audio and picture quality will trump any VOD for many years

I would not characterize the playback issues as pervasive: look for some new players to come to market soon that have most of these issues resolved

a voice of reason!
post #176 of 210
If by "soon" you mean a year or so ago I agree. A now under-$300 BD30 with up-to-date firmware plays darned near everything perfectly. And if one of the studios release a disc next week that has issues, there will soon enough be a firmware released that will make the BD30 play that perfectly, too.

No matter how many people you can find on the Internet shouting that ALL BLU-RAY PLAYERS HAVE ISSUES, it doesn't make it true.
post #177 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slumberer View Post

I shared a PS3 that my roommate owned early on when HD-DVD was still around. It's a great machine, no denying. It's not as good for me as the S550 I just bought.

Ah, the 'mighty' PS3 is surpassed only by the BDP-S550.

The BDP-S550 is on my radar, but I won't buy a dedicated player until after I get a new AVR (e.g. TX-NR906) & speakers (e.g. ?); therefore, reality dictates I will use the PS3 to watch movies on Blu-ray disc for a very long time.
post #178 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

b
disagree: DVD has been around a long, long time and HD VOD still has a long way to go to be considered mainstream: BD audio and picture quality will trump any VOD for many years

I would not characterize the playback issues as pervasive: look for some new players to come to market soon that have most of these issues resolved

Eleven years is not a "long, long time" in the history of home entertainment media formats. Indeed, even DVD's predecessor format is still in widespread use. huge numbers of consumers are still on their first DVD player.

Eventually the market will begin to reject any format that requires them to buy new equipment, if the cycle of replacement continues to get shorter. They will feel that they're being exploited.

The attraction of HD VOD using the equipment they already have from their primary video provider can't be underestimated. HD via cable or satellite, coupled with their existing DVD players, will satisfy the vast majority of average people, IMO. There's a lot of no-extra-charge stuff, there's rental stuff they don't have to wait for or leave the house to get, and their regular DVDs mostly look pretty decent on their new 32" LCD TV.

It's certainly true that there are more consumers now who recognize and will pay for the benefits of packaged HD media, certainly more than there were during the equivalent era of Laserdisc vs VHS. Those larger numbers will result in higher sales numbers for BD, enough to sustain the format. And those are largely consumers who will be comfortable enough with doing firmware updates, dealing with system configuration issues, and the other ancillary hassles of the new format.

But DVD attained dominance while it was clearly superiior in every way -- including price and convenience, which are the two most significant market drivers -- to the format it replaced.

BD will never be able to make that claim. It will never be cheaper or more convenient (let alone "and") than DVD or VOD. It simply isn't as compelling as the transition to DVD was.

Personally, as a veteran of the Laserdisc era, I'm entirely comfortable with a niche format that has the obvious high-end benefits and still relatively low cost of Blu-ray. But I am concerned that sales remain healthy enough that the continuance of the format isn't threatened. For this to happen, the platform has to be functionally mature.
post #179 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

But I don't know a single soul who is not a video game player who has bought a PS3 just to watch movies instead of buying a $300-ish standalone player.

I did.

I've had a PS3 for almost a year and it has not seen one game.... and never will.

But I do agree with you. (I'm most likely the minority). I actually bought it because it plays M2T files from hi def camcorders and I do a lot of shooting/editing. Of course I also bought because I did my research.... the players just aren't as advanced as they should be given the amount of time that Blu Ray has been out.

The truth of the matter is however that Blu Ray will not survive on the PS3 alone.

The PS3 is a machine that will sell to a specialized (and relatively small) crowd and NOT the average movie watcher who wants a normal stand alone player (which is most people).

Frankly I've always wondered why Sony hasn't taken the guts of the PS3, stuck it in a stand alone box with its own remote and called it a "player". It would be by far the best and most advanced "player" out there.
post #180 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

The huge failure rate on the new Bond movies really intensified my curiosity as to what is going on the Blu Ray world with so many failures in playback.

bland, here is your answer.

I have word from an insider close to the source that the playback failure of 007 For Your Eyes Only is due to an authoring error - a corrupt JAR file that some players can deal with and others cannot. Not due to BD+, lack of processing power, etc, but rather a problematic JAR file. FYI for all those involved.

If you have an issue with playback, I found this number to report disc issues that should help:
1-888-223-2FOX
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