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Theories on the pervasive BD playback failures?? - Page 3

post #61 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

All electronic devices use microprocessors, which are programmed, and therefore updatable. The update process can be as crude as pulling a chip out of a socket and putting an updated chip in, or as simple as clicking on "yes" when prompted to update firmware.

I've had two different DVD players (a Toshiba and a Pioneer) that needed firmware updates because of incompatibilities with newer discs. I even had a portable CD player that needed one. My TV (a Sharp) has had three firmware updates in less than a year. I've done firmware updates on my GPS, my heart rate monitor, and two different cars (an 02 Mazda and an 06 Scion).

People who say they won't buy things that need firmware updates are living in a dream world. The only thing that's new about BD players is that the process is easy and routine, and not being hidden from the consumer by having to go through "authorized dealers" to get them.

Most of the time people don't realize that their gadgets need updating until they fail. Then they take them in for repair and get them back and they work... because the firmware was updated. This might be disguised as "replaced IC 132456B" on the repair tag, but it's still a firmware update.

I'm not excusing lazy disc authoring, inadequate testing, or the practice of using paying customers as beta testers. I'm just saying that any piece of programming can be improved and updated, so be glad that BD players don't need a visit to the shop for their updates.

I have to agree with your point as well.

The blue ray association must revise the standards of testing and have better communication between hardware and software manufactures so that the code they write works on the universal hardware out in the consumer market.
post #62 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I think long term this is what may actually take Blu-ray mainstream and it certainly has the ability to offer a lot of return for the studios. Unfortunately the growing pains really hurt.

As an example TiVo now has all kinds of offers and promotions available right from their menu (although they are still in the early stages). A few clicks and the new Audi catalog arrives in a couple of days (after watching a spot or two)... Norton 360 wants to help my PC and Bounty can't wait to send me coupons.

Down the road you watch Batman IV and at the end of the movie it allows you to purchase discounted tickets for Batman V for use at your local IMAX. There are way cool things that can be done and a lot of them can be the reason to use Blu-ray (for mainstreamers).

...

OH MY GOD! NO THANK YOU!

As to the problems, my 2 cents.

1 - The format isn't working 'period' Who cares why.

2 - Most BluRay players have trouble loading normal dvd's or music CD's within a reasonable time frame. Ergo: there is a fundamental problem with most players as cheapo dvd players have no problems.
post #63 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

Nice dream. It's fine to imagine that everyone you buy a disc from will use those capabilities in only the ways you approve of but there ain't a thing in the world gonna stop them from SPAMming us. I have two words to illustrate the point...

Forced
Trailers

Enough said? A forced trailer is a low-tech form of SPAM. Given them more technology will result in more SPAM.

Actually being online can prevent your so called SPAM to a large degree. Instead of providing information you have no interest in (their only option now is to make everyone view it) they will have the ability to provide you with only the information you are interested in (such as you have requested not to play chick flick trailers). In your case instead of having forced trailers as my example before they have a menu option for trailers... you can view only the ones that interest you.

For some reason people think companies are out to SPAM them. Actually outside of the real SPAMmers (online junk mail) they aren't at all. Rather they want to provide you with information that interests you. That is the only way they benefit and up to now they haven't had any means of addressing your desires... now they can begin to with the interactivity of Blu-ray.

From my previous post neither TiVo or Apple TV SPAM you to any degree. However they make a lot of additional stuff available to you should you go looking for it.
post #64 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTsin1983 View Post

blue ray

What is this "blue ray" of which you speak?
post #65 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


What these problems seem to indicate is that the problems goes beyond BD-Java code. If a player is stumbling on DVD's, the choice of chipsets, video processors and how decoding software is written also all play an important role.


ss9001
Steve

Again, excellent point.

As I said in my other posts in this thread, a lack of communication between the hardware and software people.

I would hope that the blue ray association is reading this excellent material here and call for a conference as soon as possible.


I would like to thank everybody for their excellent prospectives on this important issue.
post #66 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by tai4de2 View Post

What is this "blue ray" of which you speak?

If you are refering to the sentence:

"Otherwise, the IP solution will over take blue ray." from post # 59.

I meant -- blue ray media.

The other night at BB, I looked at the Vudo player using the internet to receive it's movie source. It is an interesting concept.
post #67 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTsin1983 View Post

If you are refering to the sentence:

"Otherwise, the IP solution will over take blue ray." from post # 59.

I meant -- blue ray media.

The other night at BB, I looked at the Vudo player using the internet to receive it's movie source. It is an interesting concept.

It's Blu-ray.
post #68 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaun View Post

Most BluRay players have trouble loading normal dvd's or music CD's within a reasonable time frame. Ergo: there is a fundamental problem with most players as cheapo dvd players have no problems.

Nonsense.

Our Blu-Ray player plays Blu-Ray discs correctly, loads standard DVD's and gets the menu up in under 30 seconds and plays music CD's as well as our old DVD player ever did. And it's a relatively inexpensive Panasonic that's available most anywhere you look.

If by "most Blu-Ray players have trouble..." you mean that somewhere on an Internet forum you can find someone complaining about every player on the market that's certainly true. But lots of people, including me, have bought the first player they saw on the shelf at Circuit City and found it works great right out of the box. I can't speak to the situation a year or two ago but right now there are completely reliable players on the shelf at any decent store and you can bring one home, plug in an HDMI cable and have no problems.
post #69 of 210
So Brent you are pretty sure that if I pick up a $200 Sony, Samsung or Panasonic, I really shouldn't have any worries?
Some people were complaining about Ironman and Bond. Those worked for you?
post #70 of 210
I haven't watched either of them on the BD30. And it's entirely possible there would be some kind of a problem with one or both of them I suppose. But of the 20 or so Blu-Ray discs and half-dozen regular DVD's, no problems. So naturally I find it hard to believe that every player out there is incapable of playing those discs given that I've not seen any problems at all.
post #71 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

I haven't watched either of them on the BD30. And it's entirely possible there would be some kind of a problem with one or both of them I suppose. But of the 20 or so Blu-Ray discs and half-dozen regular DVD's, no problems. So naturally I find it hard to believe that every player out there is incapable of playing those discs given that I've not seen any problems at all.

Hey, there does not seem to be any problems with 90% of Blu-ray players out there (PS3 and Panasonic). It's the other 10% that seem to have issues. Similarly, there does not seem to be any issues with 98% of Blu-ray movies out there. But when there is issue with prominent titles (such as Bond series), it raises a ruckus.
post #72 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

I haven't watched either of them on the BD30. And it's entirely possible there would be some kind of a problem with one or both of them I suppose. But of the 20 or so Blu-Ray discs and half-dozen regular DVD's, no problems. So naturally I find it hard to believe that every player out there is incapable of playing those discs given that I've not seen any problems at all.

Thanks.
post #73 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Now the Panny BD-10a which came out at 1/2 the price of the BD-10 (replacing it), has been plagued with playback issues. It weighed less, was half the price and likely had a smaller percentage of the memory (but an equal number of firmware updates relative to the BD-10). But the list of bugs with the 10a is / was long..

I'm not sure I'm reading this right...It makes it sound like the BD10a is glitchy (news to me) and the BD10 isn't. Aren't these the same player?
post #74 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

If it's not time now it will never be time. We bought a Panny BD30 (which you can get real cheap right now BTW) and it has played every disc (standard or Blu-Ray) that we've placed in the tray, first try every time. Don't know about the Samsung, probably a good player, but ours is a pretty cheap player and it works great!


BD30 and PS3 are probably the players that are mostly used for testing.

Now that the BD30 is replaced testing will shift to the replacement models.

BD30 owners will get their fair share of issues in the future too.
post #75 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTsin1983 View Post

However, the real issue is the requirements of end-user, us the consumer. Their are units out their that have over 95% of success.

Just to mention this but with the latest firmware I think that the best stand alone Blu-ray players have a playback success rate of at least 99% and that even the worst stand alone Blu-ray players have a playback success rate of at least 98%. With almost 1000 Blu-ray titles released in just the US that helps put the issue into context.
post #76 of 210
OK, with what looks like a more positive perspective of Bluray performance, which players are playing Ironman and Bond without the need for firmware updates?
post #77 of 210
Great thread. I think must of us agree on just about everything said here.

My major complaint is the fact that these "issue" players are still being sold today to further confuse consumers. Its one thing to buy an Insignia BD player for $199 (that plays ever disc), but its a real shame Sony, Samsung and Sharp still sell these outdated players in retail stores that consumers might get tricked into buying simply because they are a few bucks more then the Insignia ones and they "trust" the brand new vs. off-brand. These players should have been pulled months ago leaving only 1.1/2.0 units on shelves.
post #78 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post

Nonsense.

Our Blu-Ray player plays Blu-Ray discs correctly, loads standard DVD's and gets the menu up in under 30 seconds and plays music CD's as well as our old DVD player ever did. And it's a relatively inexpensive Panasonic that's available most anywhere you look.

If by "most Blu-Ray players have trouble..." you mean that somewhere on an Internet forum you can find someone complaining about every player on the market that's certainly true. But lots of people, including me, have bought the first player they saw on the shelf at Circuit City and found it works great right out of the box. I can't speak to the situation a year or two ago but right now there are completely reliable players on the shelf at any decent store and you can bring one home, plug in an HDMI cable and have no problems.

Before accusing me of going on hearsay consider this:

I ran intensive tests at local dealers wanting to buy one to replace the PS3.
I tested a number of players, among them the newer sonys ( 350 - 550 ) and the new Pioneer (call LX71 over here). I spent a total of app. 4 Hrs testing, not including the time to drive to the stores or the time researching.

Load times for CD's and DVD's were not up to par as of what cheapo DVD players can do.
post #79 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaun View Post

Load times for CD's and DVD's were not up to par as of what cheapo DVD players can do.

Blu-ray players have to load operating systems far more complex than the ones used that are used by DVD players.
post #80 of 210
I suspect our cheap, five-year-old DVD player was not "up to par" either then. But if I can have the menu up 25-30 seconds after putting in the disc that's acceptable to me. The fact that one of the better DVD players can do it in 10 seconds doesn't much matter.

It's the same thing as our plasma television with "only" 1366x768 pixel count. The picture looks really good, better than I expected when I went shopping. The fact that some 1920x1080 pixel count displays look noticably better doesn't mean our television is sub-par in any way. It's good enough for our purposes, just as ther performance of our BD30 is good enough.

Anywhere except Internet forums, certain magazines and advertising material it isn't a race to see what player is fastest or what display has the most pixels. If a Blu-Ray player will play 99% of new releases and will load up all types of media that it plays in half a minute or so that's pretty good. And for 300 bucks "pretty good" is about what people expect, not absolute perfection.

I too despise the mediocre level of quality assurance that we've all become accustomed to in high-tech products but Blu-Ray players seem to work about as well as an iPod, a cell phone or a television and a darned sight better than most PC software. And the picture quality is awesome!

P.S. The more time I spend on these forums, the less I believe that I'm just the luckiest buyer in the world. I keep reading horror stories, yet I keep on buying stuff with a bare minimum of pre-purchase research and it all works as advertised. At some point it dawns on me that the horror stories are much overstated. What was the guy's epitaph? Rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated.
post #81 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

So Brent you are pretty sure that if I pick up a $200 Sony, Samsung or Panasonic, I really shouldn't have any worries?
Some people were complaining about Ironman and Bond. Those worked for you?

Iron Man, Indiana Jones, all six Bond films, Incredible Hulk and all the other latest releases within the past 2 months have played without a hitch in my Panasonic BD30 player. I have no worries with the Panasonic.
post #82 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post

BD30 and PS3 are probably the players that are mostly used for testing.

Now that the BD30 is replaced testing will shift to the replacement models.

BD30 owners will get their fair share of issues in the future too.

I doubt that will happen.
post #83 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by badboi View Post

I doubt that will happen.

+1

Panasonic has proven to be a company I can trust. They have kept up on their services. I have yet to have a complete lockup/not play on any of my players in two years including Indy, Iron Man, Bond, etc. I have a 10, 30, and now a 35 and 55. I have had some minor issues such as the TrueHD momentary audio drop on a few discs, but it was addressed fairly quickly.

S~
post #84 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

+1

Panasonic has proven to be a company I can trust. They have kept up on their services. I have yet to have a complete lockup/not play on any of my players in two years including Indy, Iron Man, Bond, etc. I have a 10, 30, and now a 35 and 55. I have had some minor issues such as the TrueHD momentary audio drop on a few discs, but it was addressed fairly quickly.

S~


You are missing the point. It has less to do with what brand you can trust, and more to do with what players they software manufacturers test against. As a player becomes outdated it is more likely that the disk makers move on and test against newer players.

There's a big difference between having a glitch fixed quickly, and not needing a fix at all.
post #85 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

You are missing the point. It has less to do with what brand you can trust, and more to do with what players they software manufacturers test against. As a player becomes outdated it is more likely that the disk makers move on and test against newer players.

There's a big difference between having a glitch fixed quickly, and not needing a fix at all.

Not missing the point at all. It is all about who you trust. Some of the players and Manufacturers have always been suspect with playback issues, lack of support, abandonment, etc. Panasonic has not been one of those manufacturers. The BD10 didn't need a fix od firmware update for over 8 months. When it did, I don't know what for, it was released.

S~
post #86 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

So here we are 3 years later, and it is still not time to pull the trigger on a blu-ray player?

I was about to order the sammy 1500 because its so cheap, but it seems like I would be disappointed?

I have a Samsung 1500 and a PS3. The Samsung has played every single Blu-Ray and DVD I have thrown at it without a problem except for one (For Your Eyes Only) which seems to be giving a lot of players fits. I have played well over 200 Blu-Ray movies and DVD's on my PS3 and have not had a single issue. It has been more consistent than any DVD player I have owned. My first Blu-Ray player was a Samsung 1000 which was more problematic than the 1500 and the PS3, but as a whole it was only minor issues that would pop up once in awhile. But I sold it for a PS3, and never looked back. I bought into DVD the first year it came out and I had numerous issues over the years with playback of various discs. Obviously Blu-Ray is much more complicated and is more likely to have issues. I think the studios and CE's will work through these issues, but clearly they need to get their act together if they want Blu-Ray to be mainstream. I do tend to recommend Sony, and Panasonic players, but I think Samsung has definitely improved when I compare the 1500 to the 1000. In another year or two I expect most issues will be a thing of the past. It was about the same with DVD for me.
post #87 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by tai4de2 View Post

What is this "blue ray" of which you speak?

The proper spelling of blue vs. the sony mispelling.
post #88 of 210
Had my first lockup on my BD30 with FW 2.4. Had to unplug unit to get disc out. FW 2.5 should come from Panny tomorrow and we'll see if it locksup again.
post #89 of 210
So it looks like Sammy's 1500 and Panny's BD30 may be good choices. I'll assume the glitches reported for both players here are the exception.
post #90 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

So it looks like Sammy's 1500 and Panny's BD30 may be good choices. I'll assume the glitches reported for both players here are the exception.

1500 no.... BD30 yes

Stay away from Samsung, Panasonic is your friend.
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