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Need help with antenna in remote area

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
We have a Channel Master CM3671 and CM7778 set up on our property near Clare Michigan to get the football games etc. when we're up there camping. We have a 19" HDTV and an old Voom satellite box that we use as a digital tuner. It all runs on a generator as there is no electricity, plumbing, buildings, anything. We do have the basics though... food, shelter, TV.

This was all put together on the cheap as it gets used on a limited basis. We've lived with mostly analog for a few of the big networks but that needs to change or we have to find an alternative. The cost of the solution has to be considerably cheaper than the backup plan which is to buy a satellite dish/box and pay for service a couple months out of the year.

We're very close to getting the major networks out of Flint. Which is about 55 miles to the south east. We can watch ABC in full HD glory but the signal drops out so much that it's actually better to watch it in analog.

I think our problems are twofold. First, the antenna is only about 8' above the ground. We've attached a 10' piece of 1 1/2" conduit to a post that was already there. It's very stable but not very tall. Second, there is a stand of at least 40' pine trees 75' to the west. It's about 100' wide and about a 1/4 mile long, running north-south. It's essentially a wall of trees. From what I've been reading, I'm thinking there might be some multi-path interference from the trees.

I'm planning on being up there next weekend with the intention of doing something about the antenna. I can move it about 75' to the east to get it further away from the trees or I can come up with some way to raise the antenna up another 10'. What's going to give me the best chance at bagging those stations? What's going to do me the most good?

post #2 of 14
I used TVFool.com to check the channel assignments post-transition (after Feb 17). The ABC channel WJRT will be moving to channel 12 (VHF-Hi) from it's current channel 36 (UHF). Trees in the path are much more of a problem with UHF than VHF, so you might see an improvement after Feb 17. On the other hand, WJRT is only a, 18KW transmitter, so it will still be tough.

If the trees are on your property, is there any chance you can use the trees themselves as your antenna mast, getting the antenna on the transmitter side of the trees?
post #3 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktulu_1 View Post

I can move it about 75' to the east to get it further away from the trees or I can come up with some way to raise the antenna up another 10'. What's going to give me the best chance at bagging those stations? What's going to do me the most good?

Getting the antenna up another ten feet should definitely help but getting it to about 25-30' above ground level would probably be best. Do you have room and the budget for guy wires. If it increases the cable length 75' moving the antenna to the east probably isn't worth it.
post #4 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammer View Post

Getting the antenna up another ten feet should definitely help but getting it to about 25-30' above ground level would probably be best.

I loaded tvfool for that location and tried increasing the height. The signal level didn't go up as much as I expected.
post #5 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlp95129 View Post

I used TVFool.com to check the channel assignments post-transition (after Feb 17). The ABC channel WJRT will be moving to channel 12 (VHF-Hi) from it's current channel 36 (UHF). Trees in the path are much more of a problem with UHF than VHF, so you might see an improvement after Feb 17. On the other hand, WJRT is only a, 18KW transmitter, so it will still be tough.

If the trees are on your property, is there any chance you can use the trees themselves as your antenna mast, getting the antenna on the transmitter side of the trees?

The trees are not in the path. They are to the east. I like your idea of using a tree as a mast. I might consider topping one of the pines and mounting the antenna on it. It would be quite the little adventure. It would probably look like hell though and I'm sure the tree wouldn't like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammer View Post

Getting the antenna up another ten feet should definitely help but getting it to about 25-30' above ground level would probably be best. Do you have room and the budget for guy wires. If it increases the cable length 75' moving the antenna to the east probably isn't worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post

I loaded tvfool for that location and tried increasing the height. The signal level didn't go up as much as I expected.

Am I asking too much from this antenna without a 40' tower?

I'm thinking I'm going to try and raise it up just to test it and go from there. If it improves markedly, I can come up with a sturdy solution with guy lines. If it doesn't, I'll try moving it to the east and see what happens.
post #6 of 14
I like your idea of using a tree as a mast. I might consider topping one of the pines and mounting the antenna on it. It would be quite the little adventure. It would probably look like hell though and I'm sure the tree wouldn't like it.


Hopefully you won't look like hell after the adventure.
post #7 of 14
Quote:


I like your idea of using a tree as a mast. I might consider topping one of the pines and mounting the antenna on it.

Ever see treetops swaying and bending in high winds? A tree-mounted antenna would be along for the ride: Rising and falling above and below horizontal, or swaying left and right, or a combination of both. This might not be such a big deal for VHF signals, but UHF is a lot more picky about aim -- and almost all of the signals are UHF. This could cause a lot of dropouts on windy days. And where would you mount the antenna pre-amp so that it doesn't ever get drenched in pine sap? (Hint: "Near the TV" isn't a valid answer with signals that weak. It's gotta be up at the antenna to do any good.)
post #8 of 14
10 feet higher is not going to do much for you - 30-40 feet higher should help quite a bit. I don't know if I would go tree topping though - other posts explained the reasons why. If you are using a single pole - make sure it is guyed every 10 feet. And if you need a preamp (it looks like you do) - put it right next to the antenna.

You may also find a rotator useful.
post #9 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

10 feet higher is not going to do much for you - 30-40 feet higher should help quite a bit.

Looking at tvfool.com for Clare, the difference between 25' and 40' looks fairly insignificant. Yes a 45' or 50' tower would make a big difference but it doesn't seem to be in the budget.
post #10 of 14
You didn't mention any of the other digital stations. How do Fox and CBS come in?

I would try raising 5-10 feet and see what happens. More than once, I have raised, and sometimes even lowered an antenna as little as 6 inches and seen a dramatic improvement.(Especially with UHF). A separate UHF only antenna to augment the 3671 would be your next best bet if that doesn't work.

The ABC station you are referring to is going back to VHF 12 in February, so that 3671 should have a much better shot at it.
post #11 of 14
Thread Starter 
I was able to raise the antenna up another 8 feet or so this last weekend. The signal strength meter on the Voom box that I use as a digital tuner went from 81 to 89 for channel 36. The box claims it needs 85 or better to get a lock on the signal.

There are times when it still drops out but it was working perfectly for a few hours. I'm very happy with the results. I still cannot get the FOX station in Flint but that might be something I have to live with.

Thanks for all the help.
post #12 of 14
Have you tried using one of the coupon-eligible D/A converter boxes as your tuner. You'd end up with a standard def picture, of course, but the tuners in these boxes are really excellent, especially the Zenith/Insignia ones. I use one to pick up San Francisco DTV stations from the Sierra Nevada foothills, 120 miles away. It works most of the time.
post #13 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlp95129 View Post

Have you tried using one of the coupon-eligible D/A converter boxes as your tuner.

I don't know how good an old Voom box is, but a CECB is worth a try (if SD only is acceptable), especially with a coupon defraying most of the cost.
post #14 of 14
Thread Starter 
Good idea. I'm interested to see what a different tuner will do.
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