AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Question 2 Pb10-Nsd's
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Question 2 Pb10-Nsd's

post #1 of 29
10/28/08 at 8:46pm
Thread Starter 
I was wondering and maybe lalakersfan can help me here. I am still considering 2 Pb10-Nsd's for my room. I was contemplating the notion of what I had heard about not wanting to run a sub setup larger than the speakers that accompany them. Is there any truth to that? See I have Monitor Audio Radius 250 on wall plasma speakers and although they're not small for what they are they're not large either. (as large goes with some mains) Will getting a 2nd Pb 10 be ill advised considering my mains or is that concern insignificant? Thanks,Jerry.

As an afterthought what does anyone think about collating?/stacking a Pb12Nsd underneath my Pb10nsd (conflict)? ; would or would that not work? I considered a 12 intially but didn't think I had the room, upon further review I think it's do able. I already have a Pb10. I'd appreciate any and all thoughts. Thanks, Jerry.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 29
10/28/08 at 9:14pm
Well you got your wish...I saw your thread . Not sure exactly what you mean when you say "...not wanting to run a sub setup larger than the speakers that accompany them." If you are afraid of having too much subwoofer so that your mains are eclipsed or overpowered, then you don't need to worry. Calibration should cover that. Now it's true that if you have very small speakers and huge sub(s) and insist on extremely loud listening levels, the speakers will run out of gas before the sub(s) do. However, up to the point that your mains hit their limits, as long as your subs are level matched with your speakers you should have balanced sound. If you meant something else, try to clarify and I'll see if I can help
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 29
10/29/08 at 9:21am
Thread Starter 
Looks like I did get my wish. Appreciate the response la. I respect your opinion and considering as you have said in past posts our situations were similar ie; room size and the question of Pb10's. You actually having done the dual Pb10's. I thought you could best answer the question for me. And I believe you have said my sub won't outrun my speakers unless the speakers were real small (I guess like rear surrounds?) and the subs were big (like those Epik's and Ed's you were telling me about) Thanks for the clarification, Btw, What's your thoughts on stacking a Pb12 under my Pb10 or should I stay with 2 Pb10's? I really wanted the 12" Pb in the first place but thought it'd be too big, now that the 10"Pb is in the spot I think the 12 would fit also. Can I stack or use 2 different sub sizes of the same style in my room? Thanks, Jerry.
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 29
10/29/08 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

Looks like I did get my wish. Appreciate the response la. I respect your opinion and considering as you have said in past posts our situations were similar ie; room size and the question of Pb10's. You actually having done the dual Pb10's. I thought you could best answer the question for me. And I believe you have you said my sub won't outrun my speakers unless the speakers were real small (I guess like rear surrounds?) and the subs were big (like those Epik's and Ed's you were telling me about) Thanks for the clarification, Btw, What's your thoughts on stacking a Pb12 under my Pb10 or should I stay with 2 Pb10's? I really wanted the 12" Pb in the first place but thought it'd be too big now that the 10"Pb is in the spot I think the 12 would fit also. Can I stack or use 2 different sub sizes of the same style in my room? Thanks, Jerry.

Hey Jerry,

It's not necessarily true that a sub won't outrun certain speakers unless they're really small. My point was that a subwoofer doesn't have to overpower a given speaker if it is calibrated to be level matched. As an (oversimplified) example, if a given speaker can play up to 100dB and a given subwoofer can reach 115dB, obviously the subwoofer has the ability to overwhelm that speaker if the sub is run "hot". However, if the subwoofer and speaker are calibrated to play at the same level, when you raise the volume things should sound balanced. If you get to a level higher than 100dB, then obviously the speaker won't be able to keep up, because it will have hit its limit while the subwoofer still has more in the tank. But within its output limits, the speaker should do just fine with the sub. Of course, if you had a very powerful speaker and a tiny sub, you could run into the opposite issue of the speaker being able to overpower the sub. Again, if they are calibrated correctly, sound should be balanced until you reach the limits of the less powerful component.

As for adding a PB12-NSD, I think that would work well. In fact, in my discussions with Ed Mullen he actually recommended that I purchase the PB12-NSD and stack my PB10 on top. Unfortunately, I didn't have the space for the larger footprint (my room was set up differently then). For some reason, I was under the impression you couldn't fit a sub that is 18" wide. If you can (and can afford a wait), I think you'd be better off with an Epik Knight. The footprint of the PB12-NSD (18"w x 25"d x 21"h) is almost the same as that of the Knight (18"w x 26"d x 26"h) - the Epik is only 1" deeper. My guess is that an Epik Knight would probably match or slightly outperform a PB12-NSD with a PB10 stacked on top. It would also be cheaper, as you could sell the PB10. Ultimately, I think either setup would work well. For your small room, a PB12/PB10 combo or an Epik Knight should produce serious tactile bass .
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 29
10/29/08 at 10:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Hey Jerry,

It's not necessarily true that a sub won't outrun certain speakers unless they're really small. My point was that a subwoofer doesn't have to overpower a given speaker if it is calibrated to be level matched. As an (oversimplified) example, if a given speaker can play up to 100dB and a given subwoofer can reach 115dB, obviously the subwoofer has the ability to overwhelm that speaker if the sub is run "hot". However, if the subwoofer and speaker are calibrated to play at the same level, when you raise the volume things should sound balanced. If you get to a level higher than 100dB, then obviously the speaker won't be able to keep up, because it will have hit its limit while the subwoofer still has more in the tank. But within its output limits, the speaker should do just fine with the sub. Of course, if you had a very powerful speaker and a tiny sub, you could run into the opposite issue of the speaker being able to overpower the sub. Again, if they are calibrated correctly, sound should be balanced until you reach the limits of the less powerful component.

As for adding a PB12-NSD, I think that would work well. In fact, in my discussions with Ed Mullen he actually recommended that I purchase the PB12-NSD and stack my PB10 on top. Unfortunately, I didn't have the space for the larger footprint (my room was set up differently then). For some reason, I was under the impression you couldn't fit a sub that is 18" wide. If you can (and can afford a wait), I think you'd be better off with an Epik Knight. The footprint of the PB12-NSD (18"w x 25"d x 21"h) is almost the same as that of the Knight (18"w x 26"d x 26"h) - the Epik is only 1" deeper. My guess is that an Epik Knight would probably match or slightly outperform a PB12-NSD with a PB10 stacked on top. It would also be cheaper, as you could sell the PB10. Ultimately, I think either setup would work well. For your small room, a PB12/PB10 combo or an Epik Knight should produce serious tactile bass .

I was the one that gave you that impression I remeasured the space and eventhough I didn't remove the Pb10 to get the most accurate measurement, it looks as though I have at least 18" there.(I'd be right up against the wall). My concern about overpowering subs comes from what you speak of db wise. My MA's mains are rated for 108db max spl a piece, considering you said one gets a 6 db increase with 2 Pb10's my concern was that 2 would be too much for my speakers. But I like the idea of running 2 subs or 1 larger sub, because from what I read that set up provides less effort on said sub, ie; the sub doesn't have to work as hard. Seems as though you really enjoy the Epik Knight. I like the Pb10, I have no experience with Epik, but then again I had none with SVS until I took a chance with them.
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 29
10/29/08 at 10:54am
Jerry,

Keep in mind that the subwoofer is required to reproduce higher SPL than your regular speakers. For example, Dolby "Reference Level" for movies states that your main channels need to be capable of dynamic peaks of up to 105dB. Your subwoofer should be able to produce peaks of 115dB. Our ears are less sensitive to deep bass than to upper frequencies [try listening to something like crashing cymbols at 100dB (OUCH!!!) and then run a 30hz sine wave test tone and you'll see what I mean] and movies require more of the subwoofer in terms of maximum output than they do of the other speakers. BTW, very few people listen at reference levels - "reference" is considered very loud and is uncomfortable for most people.

I agree with what you said about running one larger sub or two subs. Running a more powerful sub (Epik Knight) or multiple subs (dual PB10's) results in more headroom than a single PB10. They have the ability to play louder than the single PB10 if they need to. And even if you aren't listening at their limits, the Knight or dual PB10's should sound better than the single PB10 because, as you put it, they aren't "working as hard." You'll have lower distortion and decreased dynamic compression, which make a very big difference.
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 29
10/29/08 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

My concern about overpowering subs comes from what you speak of db wise. My MA's mains are rated for 108db max spl a piece, considering you said one gets a 6 db increase with 2 Pb10's my concern was that 2 would be too much for my speakers. But I like the idea of running 2 subs or 1 larger sub, because from what I read that set up provides less effort on said sub, ie; the sub doesn't have to work as hard.

Headroom is ALWAYS a good thing to have. Of course I mean this within reason. There's no point in getting a sub that is capable of 120dB of output if you're using small 3" satellite speakers that can barely get to 85dB. But it's always better to have "too much" sub than not enough. As I just mentioned, you'll probably recognize audible improvements due to decreased distortion and increased dynamic capabilities, even if you don't run the bigger/multiple subs to their limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

Seems as though you really enjoy the Epik Knight. I like the Pb10, I have no experience with Epik, but then again I had none with SVS until I took a chance with them.

Actually, I have the Castle, not the Knight. But I'd imagine the Knight is a heck of a performer for the price. To be fair, I might have to retract my previous statement. I said that a Knight would probably outperform a PB12-NSD and PB10-NSD stacked together. I doubt it would outperform them, but it would likely be very close in overall output - maybe trading blows at different frequencies. The one area it would more likely win out would be in sound quality. Don't get me wrong...the SVS's sounded great. But the Castle I have is on a completely different level, and I think the Knight might be a bit better as well.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 29
10/29/08 at 12:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Jerry,

Keep in mind that the subwoofer is required to reproduce higher SPL than your regular speakers. For example, Dolby "Reference Level" for movies states that your main channels need to be capable of dynamic peaks of up to 105dB. Your subwoofer should be able to produce peaks of 115dB. Our ears are less sensitive to deep bass than to upper frequencies [try listening to something like crashing cymbols at 100dB (OUCH!!!) and then run a 30hz sine wave test tone and you'll see what I mean] and movies require more of the subwoofer in terms of maximum output than they do of the other speakers. BTW, very few people listen at reference levels - "reference" is considered very loud and is uncomfortable for most people.

I agree with what you said about running one larger sub or two subs. Running a more powerful sub (Epik Knight) or multiple subs (dual PB10's) results in more headroom than a single PB10. They have the ability to play louder than the single PB10 if they need to. And even if you aren't listening at their limits, the Knight or dual PB10's should sound better than the single PB10 because, as you put it, they aren't "working as hard." You'll have lower distortion and decreased dynamic compression, which make a very big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Headroom is ALWAYS a good thing to have. Of course I mean this within reason. There's no point in getting a sub that is capable of 120dB of output if you're using small 3" satellite speakers that can barely get to 85dB. But it's always better to have "too much" sub than not enough. As I just mentioned, you'll probably recognize audible improvements due to decreased distortion and increased dynamic capabilities, even if you don't run the bigger/multiple subs to their limits.



Actually, I have the Castle, not the Knight. But I'd imagine the Knight is a heck of a performer for the price. To be fair, I might have to retract my previous statement. I said that a Knight would probably outperform a PB12-NSD and PB10-NSD stacked together. I doubt it would outperform them, but it would likely be very close in overall output - maybe trading blows at different frequencies. The one area it would more likely win out would be in sound quality. Don't get me wrong...the SVS's sounded great. But the Castle I have is on a completely different level, and I think the Knight might be a bit better as well.

Stephen,

So you believe I would benefit from a larger sub or 2 subs even if I don't run them to thier limits? I guess that's why I've been considering this for a while. Something always told me I'd probably be better off with a larger sub, hence originally wanting the Pb12. I logged on to the Epik website to check 'em out, I can't see how they look with grills on. Maybe I'll Google picture search them to see more definitive views of them.
I also noticed the Knight and the one you have the Castle are pretty similar spec wise. Two differences I noticed though is the $ on the Castle v.s. the Knight, and the larger amp on the Castle. I suppose that's part of why the Castle's more expensive.
Btw, The Knight looks like a better deal than the Pb12 same $ but the Knight has that larger driver and bigger amp.
And you say the Epik you have is on a completely different level than your SVS'S. Is that just the difference in size or overall sound ? I know from reading your posts you have had several different subs. So your judgement on that would be valued.
Also, how's the finish on the Epik's it's hard to tell by the website. Thanks, Jerry
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 29
10/29/08 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

Stephen,

So you believe I would benefit from a larger sub or 2 subs even if I don't run them to thier limits?

Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

I guess that's why I've been considering this for a while. Something always told me I'd probably be better off with a larger sub, hence originally wanting the Pb12.

Yeah, I've found out the hard way that it's cheaper and more satisfying to go for the bigger sub in the beginning. I would have saved a ton of money if I hadn't done so many incremental upgrades over the past year or two. Don't get me wrong, the PB10 is a very respectable sub, but for us bass heads, it's only a matter of time before we're left wanting more .

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

I logged on to the Epik website to check 'em out, I can't see how they look with grills on. Maybe I'll Google picture search them to see more definitive views of them.

Here's what a Conquest looks like with the grill. Don't worry, if the picture has a "purple" look to it, the actual grill looks totally black.



Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

I also noticed the Knight and the one you have the Castle are pretty similar spec wise. Two differences I noticed though is the $ on the Castle v.s. the Knight, and the larger amp on the Castle. I suppose that's part of why the Castle's more expensive.

The Knight and Castle use the same enclosure. According to Chad, the driver in the Castle is significantly more capable than that in the Knight (not that the Knight's driver is any slouch). As you mentioned, the amplifier is also more powerful in the Castle. In the upper bass frequencies, Chad made it sound like the Castle doesn't have much of an advantage over the Knight. However, he said that below 35hz, the Castle has a good ~4-5dB increase in output over the Knight. I mainly went for the Castle for a couple of reasons. First, the upgrade in sound quality from the better driver sounded like a good thing. Chad said the Knight has great sound quality, but the Castle really does step it up to another level. Another reason I went to the Castle is because I figured that this time, if I was going to upgrade, I'd make the upgrade big enough that I wouldn't be left wanting more for a long time. I decided I was through with "incremental upgrades," and springing for the Castle removed the "what if?" factor. Finally, the increased headroom of the Castle didn't hurt my decision either

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

Btw, The Knight looks like a better deal than the Pb12 same $ but the Knight has that larger driver and bigger amp.

The Knight should be a "better deal" if by that you mean it provides more output at a similar cost. I've never heard the PB12-NSD or Knight, so I can't say from personal experience, but Chad was confident the Knight would have more output than my two colocated PB10-NSD's. From discussions with SVS, it seems that the PB12-NSD has a ~3-4dB increase in output over the PB10-NSD, so the Knight would appear to offer more raw output. I can't comment on sound quality, but Chad sounded quite pleased with that aspect of the Knight as well. Keep in mind that the Knight will cost more to ship than the PB12-NSD, so you're probably looking at the Knight costing about $60 more than the PB12-NSD when all is said and done. IMO the performance increase is well worth $60, though!

However, keep in mind that there are other things to consider besides "raw performance." For example, SVS has absolutely superb customer service. They respond quickly to e-mails and phone calls. They'll give you setup advice. They'll be with you every step of the way as you choose a sub. If you have an issue they'll take care of it immediately. Their subs are also available NOW, not in a month and a half. Epik is understaffed and swamped. If support and dialog with the company are high on your list of priorities, SVS might be a better option than Epik. I bring this up because I don't want you to think that SVS is going around ripping people off. Their products are still superb, their prices are very good, and they can (and do) back up their products 100% with incredible service in every sense of the word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

And you say the Epik you have is on a completely different level than your SVS'S. Is that just the difference in size or overall sound?

Yes, it is, but we're not really comparing apples to apples. Keep in mind that I'm comparing a pair of SVS's entry level subwoofer to an Epik sub that is often compared to their flagship sub, the PB13 Ultra. I haven't heard an Ultra so I can't speak to whether that comparison has merit, but the point is that the Castle puts two PB10's to shame. It does so in size, naturally, but also in overall sound quality, output, and extension. As good as the PB10's were (and they really were good), they can't compete with the Castle, just as the two PB10's would fall well short of a PB13 Ultra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

Also, how's the finish on the Epik's it's hard to tell by the website. Thanks, Jerry

The finish looks nothing like the pictures on the website. That finish looks ugly and rough. The finish of my Castle has a very subtle texture to it. It's black, not gray, and from even a few feet away it doesn't look textured at all. If I had a camera I'd take pictures of mine, but here's a picture of a Caliber that should give you a better idea of what it's like.



If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I'm glad to help (or at least try!).

Stephen
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 29
10/29/08 at 1:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Yep.



Yeah, I've found out the hard way that it's cheaper and more satisfying to go for the bigger sub in the beginning. I would have saved a ton of money if I hadn't done so many incremental upgrades over the past year or two. Don't get me wrong, the PB10 is a very respectable sub, but for us bass heads, it's only a matter of time before we're left wanting more .



Here's what a Conquest looks like with the grill. Don't worry, if the picture has a "purple" look to it, the actual grill looks totally black.





The Knight and Castle use the same enclosure. According to Chad, the driver in the Castle is significantly more capable than that in the Knight (not that the Knight's driver is any slouch). As you mentioned, the amplifier is also more powerful in the Castle. In the upper bass frequencies, Chad made it sound like the Castle doesn't have much of an advantage over the Knight. However, he said that below 35hz, the Castle has a good ~4-5dB increase in output over the Knight. I mainly went for the Castle for a couple of reasons. First, the upgrade in sound quality from the better driver sounded like a good thing. Chad said the Knight has great sound quality, but the Castle really does step it up to another level. Another reason I went to the Castle is because I figured that this time, if I was going to upgrade, I'd make the upgrade big enough that I wouldn't be left wanting more for a long time. I decided I was through "incremental upgrades," and springing for the Castle removed the "what if?" factor. Finally, the increased headroom of the Castle didn't hurt my decision either



The Knight should be a "better deal" if by that you mean it provides more output at a similar cost. I've never heard the PB12-NSD or Knight, so I can't say from personal experience, but Chad was confident the Knight would have more output than my two colocated PB10-NSD's. From discussions with SVS, it seems that the PB12-NSD has a ~3-4dB increase in output over the PB10-NSD, so the Knight would appear to offer more raw output. I can't comment on sound quality, but Chad sounded quite pleased with that aspect of the Knight as well. Keep in mind that the Knight will cost more to ship than the PB12-NSD, so you're probably looking at the Knight costing about $60 more than the PB12-NSD when all is said and done. IMO the performance increase is well worth $60, though!

However, keep in mind that there are other things to consider besides "raw performance." For example, SVS has absolutely superb customer service. They respond quickly to e-mails and phone calls. They'll give you setup advice. They'll be with you every step of the way as you choose a sub. If you have an issue they'll take care of it immediately. Their subs are also available NOW, not in a month and a half. Epik is understaffed and swamped. If support and dialog with the company are high on your list of priorities, SVS might be a better option than Epik. I bring this up because I don't want you to think that SVS is going around ripping people off. Their products are still superb, their prices are very good, and they can (and do) back up their products 100% with incredible service in every sense of the word.



Yes, it is, but we're not really comparing apples to apples. Keep in mind that I'm comparing a pair of SVS's entry level subwoofer to an Epik sub that is often compared to their flagship sub, the PB13 Ultra. I haven't heard an Ultra so I can't speak to whether that comparison has merit, but the point is that the Castle puts two PB10's to shame. It does so in size, naturally, but also in overall sound quality, output, and extension. As good as the PB10's were (and they really were good), they can't compete with the Castle, just as the two PB10's would fall well short of a PB13 Ultra.



The finish looks nothing like the pictures on the website. That finish looks ugly and rough. The finish of my Castle has a very subtle texture to it. It's black, not gray, and from even a few feet away it doesn't look textured at all. If I had a camera I'd take pictures of mine, but here's a picture of a Caliber that should give you a better idea of what it's like.



If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I'm glad to help (or at least try!).

Stephen


Wow! I can't tell you how considerate it is of you to go to this much trouble to help a stranger. That's very kind of you Stephen, thank you. The pic of the Conquest actually looks really nice. It's much different looking than on the website. The website pics kinda scared me haha. They had an Elemental Designs look to 'em you know the so-called truck bed finish. But I guess we're not buying for the look but the looks are a nice complement to the sound. The Epik's look more like the finish on the Pb10's which I like. I appreciate your posting the pics. Wish I could've seen your Castle with the grill on, on the other hand they probably all share the same grill look. The Conquest's grill looks very well done, clean fitting. I'm surprised @ the apparent lack of name brand recognition ie; company badge on the grill front. To touch upon what you said @ the beginning of your reply, I know now the same way you found out that you should've went bigger. I bought my Pioneer Kuro the smallest size they had was the 50". That panel looked big in my bedroom initially. Now that I'm used to it I wish I would have gone bigger. Next monitor won't be I'm goin' projection, 100"+ screen Thanks again for all your help Stephen, always look forward to your recommendations. P.s. Maybe some day I'll learn how to separate my text like you and others do so well. It's very organized looking. Can't you tell I don't know much about word processing programs as well
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 29
10/29/08 at 4:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

Wow! I can't tell you how considerate it is of you to go to this much trouble to help a stranger. That's very kind of you Stephen, thank you. The pic of the Conquest actually looks really nice. It's much different looking than on the website. The website pics kinda scared me haha. They had an Elemental Designs look to 'em you know the so-called truck bed finish. But I guess we're not buying for the look but the looks are a nice complement to the sound. The Epik's look more like the finish on the Pb10's which I like. I appreciate your posting the pics. Wish I could've seen your Castle with the grill on, on the other hand they probably all share the same grill look. The Conquest's grill looks very well done, clean fitting. I'm surprised @ the apparent lack of name brand recognition ie; company badge on the grill front. To touch upon what you said @ the beginning of your reply, I know now the same way you found out that you should've went bigger. I bought my Pioneer Kuro the smallest size they had was the 50". That panel looked big in my bedroom initially. Now that I'm used to it I wish I would have gone bigger. Next monitor won't be I'm goin' projection, 100"+ screen Thanks again for all your help Stephen, always look forward to your recommendations. P.s. Maybe some day I'll learn how to separate my text like you and others do so well. It's very organized looking. Can't you tell I don't know much about word processing programs as well

Funny you should mention the your display. Right after Christmas last year I bought a Samsung 40" LCD to replace a 26" CRT in my room. I thought it was big. A couple of weeks ago I got a Mitsubishi DLP projector and 73" drop down screen (TV is mounted on the wall now - I still use it for PS3 gaming and some TV/movie watching). While that screen size might not seem huge, my viewing distance is about 7', it's plenty big. I watched a scene of Black Hawk Down on the PJ, then for fun I watched it on the TV and it just looked like a toy . In the last couple weeks I've gotten the Castle and the PJ, and man is my HT experience different! Now, if only school would leave me alone! Midterms, reading, studying, and group projects...they're all conspiring to keep me away from my HT .
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 29
10/29/08 at 4:25pm
Hey lalakers,

How come you didn't get the tower for an extra $100 over the castle? just curious.
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 29
10/29/08 at 4:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Funny you should mention the your display. Right after Christmas last year I bought a Samsung 40" LCD to replace a 26" CRT in my room. I thought it was big. A couple of weeks ago I got a Mitsubishi DLP projector and 73" drop down screen (TV is mounted on the wall now - I still use it for PS3 gaming and some TV/movie watching). While that screen size might not seem huge, my viewing distance is about 7', it's plenty big. I watched a scene of Black Hawk Down on the PJ, then for fun I watched it on the TV and it just looked like a toy . In the last couple weeks I've gotten the Castle and the PJ, and man is my HT experience different! Now, if only school would leave me alone! Midterms, reading, studying, and group projects...they're all conspiring to keep me away from my HT .


Yeah, I can't watch the living room Samsung 30" 1080i LCD anymore. That was my 1st HDtv, and I thought it was the sh*t. haha. It's probably still an ok. tv if I hadn't been spoiled by my Pio. That's funny everything you get for your room is big.....except for the room My viewing distance is the length(if you can call it that)(it's a square room) of the room, about 12' give or take. I won't make the same "mistake" if one could call my sub choice a mistake, I'd say the size choice was the mistake- if it even was a mistake.(I still don't know if I'm missing anything on the sub choice, maybe ignorance is bliss). Well I know now that screen size will be @ least twice what I got at the moment. Alot easier to notice a smaller picture with your eyes I think than a lower sound with your ears, @ least it is for me. Maybe if I got the Epik I'd notice like I did with the Samsung to Pio. I read in one of your other posts or somewhere on these forums that you're a college student. Man, how do you find the time to help and converse with people like myself? Are you Spiderman? More to the point with all your HT toys how do you drag your self to schoolwork? I'm between jobs right now and with all my HT goodies I'm not in a big hurry to get back! Jerry.
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 29
10/29/08 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceblrc View Post

Hey lalakers,

How come you didn't get the tower for an extra $100 over the castle? just curious.

My room is 11'x10' and doubles as a bedroom . The extra few inches of depth made a big difference. Though to be honest, I'm not feeling a whole lot lacking with a Castle 4' away from me in a 900 cubic foot room .
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 29
10/29/08 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

I won't make the same "mistake" if one could call my sub choice a mistake, I'd say the size choice was the mistake- if it even was a mistake.(I still don't know if I'm missing anything on the sub choice, maybe ignorance is bliss).

I don't think the sub was necessarily a "mistake." Probably 90% of people would be blown away with a PB10-NSD in a 1400 cubic foot room (I think that's what you said your room size is?). It really is a quality subwoofer, and puts many subs at B&M stores to shame that cost twice as much. It's just that we forum enthusiasts are a little crazy. Most people wouldn't even consider listening at "reference level" if they knew how loud that is. Anyway, I guess in hindsight you can say you'd have been happier with a bigger sub, but I don't necessarily think it was a mistake. I don't really regret my PB10's. Sure, I could have saved money in the long run by saving more money from the get go to buy a huge sub. But then I really do find a large part of the excitement of this hobby is the process of upgrading and comparing products. I'm glad I got the PB10's They were very nice subwoofers, I learned a lot, and got to have great discussions with Ed Mullen from SVS (sure learned a ton from him!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

Maybe if I got the Epik I'd notice like I did with the Samsung to Pio.

That's very possible. In fact, I think it's likely. However, it looks like the Valor/Knight/Caliber are out of commission for a while. Apparently Epik is out of parts and I don't know if there's an estimated delivery date. So that might make your decision a whole lot easier .

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

I read in one of your other posts or somewhere on these forums that you're a college student. Man, how do you find the time to help and converse with people like myself?

Yeah, I'm a college student. I was at school all day today, which is actually one of the reasons I was able to post so frequently. I had a huge 4 hour break between classes (don't want to drive home because it takes too long and gas isn't cheap) so I did some school reading but also a lot of posting . As for finding the time to help and converse with people, I think we all find time for what we really want to do. I really enjoy being part of the AVS "community." The topics here are exciting to me, and I like learning (I've learned a whole lot here!) and helping people out when I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

Are you Spiderman?

Unfortunately not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

More to the point with all your HT toys how do you drag your self to schoolwork? I'm between jobs right now and with all my HT goodies I'm not in a big hurry to get back! Jerry.

Can't blame you for not wanting to get back to work. I'm not always thrilled about work and school either, especially with so much fun HT stuff to do .
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 29
10/29/08 at 6:18pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah, I'm not sure I'd call the sub choice a mistake per se'. I just wondered if I'd have the same feeling going from my 30" Sammy to the 50" Pio, by going to a larger sub or 2 subs. I am pretty happy though with the Pb10. I'm still going to consider upgrading though. I'll just continue to educate myself in the meantime. Thanks for getting back to me your schedule right now is obviously busier than mine, not that I'm complaining Jerry.

Btw, The time factor was something I thought would keep me from an impulse buy, figuring the Epik's and Ed's would have a high demand on thier production. I had heard of ED's wait times and figured Epik would probably be the same.

My room is about 13?? cu. ft. I'm not sure exactly but it's definitely under 1400 cu. ft.
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 29
10/30/08 at 10:03am
Hey lalakersfan,
Obviously you think that one castle is better than 2 svs pb10's

My question is ... what about the argument that 2 subs evens out the dips & peaks in frequencies throughout the room as compared to one sub. What's your opinion on this. You went from one PB 10 to 2 and now back to one sub.
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 29
10/30/08 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceblrc View Post

Hey lalakersfan,
Obviously you think that one castle is better than 2 svs pb10's

My question is ... what about the argument that 2 subs evens out the dips & peaks in frequencies throughout the room as compared to one sub. What's your opinion on this. You went from one PB 10 to 2 and now back to one sub.

That's certainly a valid argument, and it is true as well. If the subs in question were more evenly matched in performance capabilities, things could have ended up quite differently. The fact of the matter is that the Castle is in such a different league than the PB10 that its sound quality is better, even if the two PB10's were able to be somewhat separated to "smooth" out FR.

I also have a couple of bass traps and use REW and an FBQ2496 to smooth FR so it's relatively flat. Here are REW results from the dual PB10's and then the Castle":

DUAL PB10-NSD


SINGLE CASTLE


Ignore the slightly different crossover slopes and slightly different sizes of the graphs. Yes, even after EQ, the dual PB10-NSD setup is slightly "flatter" than the Castle. But really, we're talking about a difference of maybe +/-1dB here. The Castle is still flat enough at the listening position to have no audible peaks or dips during normal listening. Meanwhile, the bigger, higher quality driver delivers much tighter bass, the larger enclosure, driver, and port allow for much greater deep bass capability (not visible on the graph, but at high output levels it's a huge difference), and the Castle also has a good deal more headroom in the mid-bass as well.

Now if I were to compare for example two Epik Knights to a single Castle, and if I didn't have any EQ or bass traps, I think the story would be different. In that case, the two Knights would be able to keep up in output, and the smoothing effect of two non colocated subs would be much more apparent. Also, if I had bothered to take REW measurements in say 4 different places in my room with the two PB10's and then with the single Castle, I'm sure the two PB10's would have flatter response than my single Castle. That said, my room is tiny and there are only one or two viable places to sit, so the single Castle can be EQ'd to perform great for that limited seating.

Hope that answers your question. I in no way want to give the impression that I don't think dual subs have advantages. In my experience with the PB10's and Castle, however, the disparity in performance capabilities of the subs in question greatly outweighs the potential benefits of a dual PB10 setup versus the single Castle.
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 29
10/30/08 at 10:30am
Thanks for the explanation. So one very good sub beats out 2 pretty good subs. I agree.

Here a new question for you. One good sub and EQ & room treatments or two good subs & no EQ or room treatments. Right now I have one good sub without any EQ or room treatments so I am curious.
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 29
10/30/08 at 10:47am
I pick "C", two good subs and room treatments/EQ
Reply
Reply
post #21 of 29
10/30/08 at 10:50am
Seriously though, that's a tough one, and maybe others will chime in. My questions to you are:

1. What "good" sub do you have now?

2. What are you looking to accomplish by adding either a second "good" sub or using treatments and EQ?

3. How much money do you have to spend?

My gut reaction is that if WAF is an issue, it'll probably be easier to get a second sub by her than to throw bass traps all over your room. But I'll need some more information from you before I can give you any recommendations.
Reply
Reply
post #22 of 29
10/30/08 at 11:12am
Stephen,
I sent you a PM.
Reply
Reply
post #23 of 29
10/30/08 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by htjunkee View Post

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd call the sub choice a mistake per se'. I just wondered if I'd have the same feeling going from my 30" Sammy to the 50" Pio, by going to a larger sub or 2 subs. I am pretty happy though with the Pb10. I'm still going to consider upgrading though. I'll just continue to educate myself in the meantime. Thanks for getting back to me your schedule right now is obviously busier than mine, not that I'm complaining Jerry.

Btw, The time factor was something I thought would keep me from an impulse buy, figuring the Epik's and Ed's would have a high demand on thier production. I had heard of ED's wait times and figured Epik would probably be the same.

My room is about 13?? cu. ft. I'm not sure exactly but it's definitely under 1400 cu. ft.

Hey Jerry,

No pressure. Keep enjoying that PB10 - it really is a great sub. Maybe you'll end up being content with it, and that will save you lots of money. Of course if you aren't totally satisfied, there are some great options out there .

It's funny you should mention the "time factor" staving off an impulse buy on Epik or eD. I almost ordered the Castle as soon as I did because I knew it would take so long to get here. Probably makes no sense, but when upgraditis hits, logic goes out the window and money goes out of the wallet! FWIW, I think the wait for Epik is longer than it is for eD nowadays.
Reply
Reply
post #24 of 29
10/30/08 at 11:57am
Jerry,
If you want to upgrade the MFW 15 is $699 plus shipping. I think they have "A stocks" available to ship now. I have this sub. It looks very good & sounds amazing.
Reply
Reply
post #25 of 29
10/30/08 at 11:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Hey Jerry,

No pressure. Keep enjoying that PB10 - it really is a great sub. Maybe you'll end up being content with it, and that will save you lots of money. Of course if you aren't totally satisfied, there are some great options out there .

It's funny you should mention the "time factor" staving off an impulse buy on Epik or eD. I almost ordered the Castle as soon as I did because I knew it would take so long to get here. Probably makes no sense, but when upgraditis hits, logic goes out the window and money goes out of the wallet! FWIW, I think the wait for Epik is longer than it is for eD nowadays.

Yeah, I'm actually pretty happy with the Pb10. Time factor is definitely a nice task master, upgraditis like you said gets one thinking irrationally/impulsively

Speaking of which, I was checking out the "Conquest" on the Epik website. That things a beast! I read some of the head to heads against other large subs on their websites "news" section it really shined. That's pretty impressive! But I'm getting "carried away" that sub in my room would be the definition of logic going out the window Jerry.
Reply
Reply
post #26 of 29
10/30/08 at 2:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceblrc View Post

Jerry,
If you want to upgrade the MFW 15 is $699 plus shipping. I think they have "A stocks" available to ship now. I have this sub. It looks very good & sounds amazing.


Thanks for the heads up juiceblrc.

I'll have to take a look @them. I'm not familiar with that sub. I may just hold on to my Pb10-Nsd for now though. A? stock I'm familiar with "B" Stock but not A. Sounds as though A would be better 2nd hand quality though, asssuming that's what A stock is (2nd hand) quality.

duh A stock must mean new.
Reply
Reply
post #27 of 29
10/30/08 at 8:18pm
Congrats on becoming a front projector convert lalakers.. I have a mitsubishi hc6000 on 133" screen..It's awesome except I'd like better black levels, and that makes the upcoming models like hc7000, panasonic ae3000 and epson 6500ub attractive. But I also wanna get rid of motion blur, so I'm hoping some really good cheap DLP's will come out next spring
Reply
Reply
post #28 of 29
10/30/08 at 8:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

Congrats on becoming a front projector convert lalakers.. I have a mitsubishi hc6000 on 133" screen..It's awesome except I'd like better black levels, and that makes the upcoming models like hc7000, panasonic ae3000 and epson 6500ub attractive. But I also wanna get rid of motion blur, so I'm hoping some really good cheap DLP's will come out next spring

Thanks, CADOBHuK. Yeah, it's amazing I've only watched a couple of movies so far and already I can't even imagine watching movies on my 40" LCD again. I still do play games and watch some TV on the LCD, but movies are a completely different experience with front projection. I don't have anything nearly as expensive as yours, but as a poor college student my HC3000 DLP does the job just fine. For $600 brand new, I couldn't resist
Reply
Reply
post #29 of 29
11/1/08 at 12:54am
It's a good 720p dlp, was $3k 2 years ago. $600 is a steal price for it even today.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Question 2 Pb10-Nsd's