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I was gonna buy Epik, Elemental or HSu...but maybe I should DIY? Sealed sub help pl?

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
Ok guys. I was all ready to pull the trigger on a sub from either SVS, HSU, Elemental Design, or Epik. Price range around $650. I had considered DIY, but felt that I needed a ported sub for HomeTheater, and my tools are too limited for anything other than a sealed box.

After reading and reading, it appears that is very possible to make a sealed DIY sub that matches a $650 SVS, HSU, Ed or Epik in terms of sound quality/output. I am using the Craig Sub list as a basis for comparison, and if the Epik Valor sealed sub can be in the top ten with a more than respectable HT rating, then I believe I should go down the DIY sealed sub path.

I have built a sealed box for a car subwoofer - an Image Dynamics IDQ v3 10". Is there any difference in concept between building a sealed car subwoofer and a sealed home theater subwoofer? If not, all I need to know is the following:

Suggested driver 12-15" that does well in a sealed box - a musical driver preferrably that also does well with movies.


I should be able to get suggested volume of sealed box and amp size from suggested driver manufacturer.

Also, I will probably make the box 1.5" thick all the way around with MDF, unless there is a better suggestion.

Thanks in advance for any help.
post #2 of 30
Quote:


and my tools are too limited for anything other than a sealed box.

The same tools can build a ported sub? What tools do you think are different?

8" sonotub from HD is the only extra piece. You are using a router for the speaker hole in the sealed sub so you can route the holes for the port too....

Now the only thing is maybe the size of the ported box is too big for you? A ported box doesnt have to be much bigger then a PB13.

A 18" Mal-x driver and a EP2500 (with possibly a 25 or 30% discount from ebay) is definitely under the $650 value and I believe its a better performer then the PB13 (especially in output).


btw, Im not trying to convince you to build a sealed sub its just that one ported sub just allows you to go much lower. You would need multiple sealed subs to match the output at the low end.
post #3 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

The same tools can build a ported sub? What tools do you think are different?

8" sonotub from HD is the only extra piece. You are using a router for the speaker hole in the sealed sub so you can route the holes for the port too....

Now the only thing is maybe the size of the ported box is too big for you? A ported box doesnt have to be much bigger then a PB13.

A 18" Mal-x driver and a EP2500 (with possibly a 25 or 30% discount from ebay) is definitely under the $650 value and I believe its a better performer then the PB13 (especially in output).


btw, Im not trying to convince you to build a sealed sub its just that one ported sub just allows you to go much lower. You would need multiple sealed subs to match the output at the low end.

OK. So I guess I can try a sonotube box. Is the maelstrom musical, or is it all about output?
post #4 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by grateful72 View Post

OK. So I guess I can try a sonotube box. Is the maelstrom musical, or is it all about output?

No problems here.....it is a wonderful sounding driver. We had one in a sealed box (8 cubes) & it just brought a smile to your face.
post #5 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robseyes View Post

No problems here.....it is a wonderful sounding driver. We had one in a sealed box (8 cubes) & it just brought a smile to your face.

Great! Thanks robseyes. Do you know how low it played in the 8 cu ft? I read another post that in a 6 cu ft box it played flat down to 20hz with ~ 2000 watts.

Also how many watts is enough? Will 1400 watts be enough in a sealed 8 cu ft box?
post #6 of 30
What size is your room, and what other equipment is involved here...

The Maelstrom-18 sealed with a Behringer EP2500 amp will be great depending on your room size, from what people are saying. Adding eq to boost the low end will be even better...

Can't wait for mine to get here...
post #7 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

What size is your room, and what other equipment is involved here...

The Maelstrom-18 sealed with a Behringer EP2500 amp will be great depending on your room size, from what people are saying. Adding eq to boost the low end will be even better...

Can't wait for mine to get here...

My room size is 1800 cu ft room 15x15x8 with the left side open to kitchen. I was hoping i could live with the Behr EP1500. Specs say 1400 watts @ 4 ohm bridged. I have read that 800-1200 watts are enough for the Maelstrom.

So why does everyone recommend the EP2500? Is it all about headroom? Or, will I lose SQ if I run the EP1500 bridged/mono? Does the Maelstrom run at 4 ohms?
post #8 of 30
If your going to spend the money get the EP2500, its worth it. As far as the box is concerned if you are going to use it for movies, Go Ported because it will go lower. You can make a sealed box go low but it will cost you more money for the added electronics
post #9 of 30
I was in the same situation as you recently. I decided to build 2 sonosubs and bought a ep2500. It was a fairly easy process and I am really happy with the results. No way I could have gotten the sound I have from something commercial (in my budget at least.)
post #10 of 30
Thread Starter 
I appreciate the threads I have read and all the suggestions here. But, I am still on the fence in regards to the Behringer EP1500 or the Behringer EP2500 for the Maelstrom. Maybe you guys just crave power/SPL more than I do, which is entirely possible?

Has anyone tried to run the Maelstrom (or similarly rated sub) with the Behringer EP1500? So far, it appears that all the suggestions are just theory, since there is no actual experience that I have found with this amp/sub combo.

To me, the math and my instinct suggests that the EP1500 is enough to run the Maelstrom. Here's why:

1. From what I can gather, the Maelstrom can handle around 2,000 watts. But, I have read around the forum that it still performs well with real power from 800-1200 watts. The EP1500 is rated at 1400 watts - bridged mono 4 ohm. Even if this is overrated, 80% performance still gives me 1,120 watts. Heck 60% performance gets me there at 840 watts. Am I missing something?

2. The EP1500 has power consumption of 1,600 watts, while the EP2500 has power consumption of 2,600 watts. Add another 1,000 watts power consumption for the rest of my gear and fixtures in the room to either of the above. With an available 2,400 watts on my circuit, total power consumption with the EP2500 is 3,600 watts! That's 50% more than my circuit can give me. Something would have to give, and most likely some of that would be lost power to the EP2500. If I lost 1,200 watts off the EP2500, then I just have a more expensive EP1500 and possibly safety issues. Meanwhile, the EP1500 + my other gear lands at 2,600 watts, which is very close to what my circuit can provide. Again, am I missing something?

3. I do not listen to my gear at very loud levels. Maybe this means I should not be getting the Maelstrom, but I wanted a musical sealed sub that could get down to 15-20hz comfortably. If there is another driver that can do this in a sealed box, I am all ears! Anyone have an alternative suggestion to the Maelstrom?

Thanks again for your help. Sorry for being a pain.
post #11 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by grateful72 View Post

I appreciate the threads I have read and all the suggestions here. But, I am still on the fence in regards to the Behringer EP1500 or the Behringer EP2500 for the Maelstrom. Maybe you guys just crave power/SPL more than I do, which is entirely possible?

Has anyone tried to run the Maelstrom (or similarly rated sub) with the Behringer EP1500? So far, it appears that all the suggestions are just theory, since there is no actual experience that I have found with this amp/sub combo.

No, but when I tested my sealed Maelstrom I used one channel of the 2500. I guess that's 650-750 Watts. I got 107 db at 30 Hz before the amp started clipping.
Quote:


To me, the math and my instinct suggests that the EP1500 is enough to run the Maelstrom. Here's why:

1

2. The EP1500 has power consumption of 1,600 watts, while the EP2500 has power consumption of 2,600 watts. Add another 1,000 watts power consumption for the rest of my gear and fixtures in the room to either of the above. With an available 2,400 watts on my circuit, total power consumption with the EP2500 is 3,600 watts! That's 50% more than my circuit can give me. Something would have to give, and most likely some of that would be lost power to the EP2500. If I lost 1,200 watts off the EP2500, then I just have a more expensive EP1500 and possibly safety issues. Meanwhile, the EP1500 + my other gear lands at 2,600 watts, which is very close to what my circuit can provide. Again, am I missing something?

You'll pop a breaker if try to draw too much current. That's what the breakers are there for.
Quote:


3. I do not listen to my gear at very loud levels. Maybe this means I should not be getting the Maelstrom, but I wanted a musical sealed sub that could get down to 15-20hz comfortably. If there is another driver that can do this in a sealed box, I am all ears! Anyone have an alternative suggestion to the Maelstrom?

Thanks again for your help. Sorry for being a pain.

You'll get a lot less distortion running the driver at less than it's max. I think you'll be happy with the M-x . I think the people who are most disappointed with the Maelstrom are those who expect an unobtainable level of performance from a single sub.
post #12 of 30
I thought I had read that real world 4ohm performance had the EP1500 at around 800 watts and the EP2500 at around 1600watts?

For a $50.00 difference it was a no-brainer for me.

I'm going with a sealed 7 cube Maelstrom-x with 100% fill. I'm going to EQ it with a BFD1124p and I have an EP2500 to power it. I'm waiting for the Maelstrom to ship so I can't tell you how it sounds for a while but this is going to be used for Home Theater. From everything I read it seems this combination of Maelstrom and EP2500 is the best performance bang for the buck out there.

With so many people using the EP2500 I think we would hear about breakers overloading but that's something I'll deal with if it becomes a problem.
post #13 of 30
You can get the EP2500 today for about $230-250. this is a no brainer, just get it. Forget the sealed and go ported
post #14 of 30
Definitely go for the EP2500. I can clip my XS900 on my Maelstrom no problem, and it has a bit more guts than the 2500 even. So, the Maelstrom can take the power.
post #15 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by grateful72 View Post

Great! Thanks robseyes. Do you know how low it played in the 8 cu ft? I read another post that in a 6 cu ft box it played flat down to 20hz with ~ 2000 watts.

Also how many watts is enough? Will 1400 watts be enough in a sealed 8 cu ft box?

It was flat to about 20 hz in room (measured with a velodyne sms-1 that my friend had). The Maelstrom has the ability to DRINK power......I would get as much power as you can afford. Both the Behringer amps have been tested (by Chuck in the measuring amplifiers thread here at AVS). The Ep2500 tested much better than the Ep1500 (an even larger difference than the rated specs suggest). I would just get the Ep2500.....it will be coasting most of the time anyway--until you put in War of the Worlds then watch out!
post #16 of 30
I forgot to mention......it measured flat to 20 hz with no eq applied at all!
post #17 of 30
As someone else stated, it's only ~$50 more for the EP2500 vs the EP1500. Definitely worth it. Plus if you ever decide you want to add a second you could run one off each channel.
post #18 of 30
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone for all your help.

Well, after talking with Kevin at Exodus, I decided to go a different route. Since the Maelstrom was out of stock, I decided to go with 2 Shiva's. Kevin said the two Shiva's would hit lower (by a very small probably inaudible amount) than the Maelstrom if I put them each in a 5 cube sealed box.

On top of that, I was able to get the EP1500 online at a decent price.

So I saved a bit of money, and probably (or should I say hopefully) will get about the same type of performance.

Thanks again for all your help.
post #19 of 30
Is that right? I'm not very good at this stuff but I did some models and to me it seemed a single Tempest-X had more output than dual Shivas and a single Mal-x seemed to be right around dual Tempest-x in output?
post #20 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_sun View Post

Is that right? I'm not very good at this stuff but I did some models and to me it seemed a single Tempest-X had more output than dual Shivas and a single Mal-x seemed to be right around dual Tempest-x in output?

Sorry. That's what he said for down to 20hz, which is what I asked.

Maelstrom will have more SPL in the 15-20khz range.
post #21 of 30
No way two Shivas will hang with a M-X at 20Hz in 5 cubes each. They'll unload vs the M-X in that big a box trying to keep up.

OTOH, if you put 2 of them in 5-6 cubes, dual opposing, and double that to 2-2X12" Shivas, each in 5-6 cubes, you'll have a very nice system for the $$.

It's hard to beat the deal Kevin's offering on the Shiva right now.

You'll be able to wire the 4-D8 drivers to a single 4 ohm load. You'll increase the sensitivity to 94-95dB, getting MUCH more out of your amp (than 8 ohms at 92-93dB) and you'll have 2 boxes for better in-room response and elimination of localization of the low end.

Bosso
post #22 of 30
Maybe he's factoring the EP1500 as the amp vs the ep2500. Could two shiva-x be better than a single Mal-x with only 600 watts?

Also he should be able to wire the Shiva's in series-parallel and still keep the 4omh load right?

Are you talking about using 4 Shiva's in a sealed isobaric? That would look awesome.
post #23 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

No way two Shivas will hang with a M-X at 20Hz in 5 cubes each. They'll unload vs the M-X in that big a box trying to keep up.

OTOH, if you put 2 of them in 5-6 cubes, dual opposing, and double that to 2-2X12" Shivas, each in 5-6 cubes, you'll have a very nice system for the $$.

It's hard to beat the deal Kevin's offering on the Shiva right now.

You'll be able to wire the 4-D8 drivers to a single 4 ohm load. You'll increase the sensitivity to 94-95dB, getting MUCH more out of your amp (than 8 ohms at 92-93dB) and you'll have 2 boxes for better in-room response and elimination of localization of the low end.

Bosso

Hmmm. So are you telling me that if I have 2 sealed 5 cube boxes running one Shiva-X in each with an EP1500 at parallel 4-ohms (400w x 2), that my planned setup will not compare to 1 M-X? I know it won't be as loud, but honestly, won't the potential audible SQ be the same up to 90-100db?

How will it compare to my original reference points, which were the retail HSU vtf-2 mK3 or SVS PB-10, or Epic Valor, or Elemental Design A5-300?
post #24 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by grateful72 View Post

Hmmm. So are you telling me that if I have 2 sealed 5 cube boxes running one Shiva-X in each with an EP1500 at parallel 4-ohms (400w x 2), that my planned setup will not compare to 1 M-X?

Yes, that's what I'm telling you.

Quote:


How will it compare to my original reference points, which were the retail HSU vtf-2 mK3 or SVS PB-10, or Epic Valor, or Elemental Design A5-300?

I don't know anything about the Epik or the Ed, but a 2X12" sealed will definitely outgun the 1X10" ported Hsu/SVS.

I believe the Epik is a 1X15" sealed, IIRC, and the 2XShiva should compete with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_sun View Post

Could two shiva-x be better than a single Mal-x with only 600 watts?

No.

Quote:


Also he should be able to wire the Shiva's in series-parallel and still keep the 4omh load right?

The Shiva-X is a dual 8 ohm driver. 2 of them in series parallel would yield a nominal 8 ohm load.

Quote:


Are you talking about using 4 Shiva's in a sealed isobaric? That would look awesome.

No. Two boxes. Each is 5-6 cubes. Each has dual opposing Shivas. Each box is wired series/parallel and the two boxes are wired parallel to a 4 ohm load, fed by the EP1500, bridged.

It will outgun a single M-X in every category.

The 2X12" system will be an excellent sub, but I question the 10 cubes suggestion. It offers 1 or 2dB more output below 20Hz with an inaudible difference in Q at the risk of exceeding X-max.

Bosso
post #25 of 30
Thread Starter 
OK. I ran some numbers to to make sense of this.

Comparing 1 Shiva-X in a 5 cube box vs 1 Mal-X in a 7 cube box:

1. Freq Response - The curves are pretty similar. Shiva-X ouputs fewer dbs by an average of -.8db in the 10-100hz range. At 15.2hz, the Shiva-X outputs .7 db less than the Mal-X.

2. Power Response - The curves are pretty similar. Shiva-X outputs anywhere from 6.4 to 9.6 less db's from 10hz to 100hz depending on Frequency. However, at 15.2 hz, the Shiva-X outputs 98.9 dbs, which is 9.3 db's less than the Mal-X. The smaller Shiva's Displacement-Limited SPL really kicks in around 23hz.

FYI, when comparing Frequency Response of Shiva-X in 5 cube box to Mal-X in 6 cube box, the graph shows that the Shiva has more output than the Mal (by .5db).

Of course, I will be running 2 Shivas, so hopefully this will bring my output levels closer to tat of 1 Mal-X. It looks like an eq would be best that reduces bass output from 25-100 so that bass is EQ'd with bass below 25hz.
post #26 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

No way two Shivas will hang with a M-X at 20Hz in 5 cubes each. They'll unload vs the M-X in that big a box trying to keep up.

OTOH, if you put 2 of them in 5-6 cubes, dual opposing, and double that to 2-2X12" Shivas, each in 5-6 cubes, you'll have a very nice system for the $$.

It's hard to beat the deal Kevin's offering on the Shiva right now.

You'll be able to wire the 4-D8 drivers to a single 4 ohm load. You'll increase the sensitivity to 94-95dB, getting MUCH more out of your amp (than 8 ohms at 92-93dB) and you'll have 2 boxes for better in-room response and elimination of localization of the low end.

Bosso


I have been toying with this very combination for the past few weeks. In the simulator, of course. I found that two Shiva-X's in an approprietely sized enclosure almost equals a single Maelstrom-X in it's respective enclosure. I will more than likely get two M-X's but a quad setup of Shiva-X's looks mighty tempting. And as you said, Bosso, at their current price the Shiva-X is hard to beat.
post #27 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The 2X12" system will be an excellent sub, but I question the 10 cubes suggestion. It offers 1 or 2dB more output below 20Hz with an inaudible difference in Q at the risk of exceeding X-max.

Bosso

Thanks Boss. Great info and help.

[EDIT] Now here is my dilemma...........I have already built my boxes and they are ~ 4.76 cubes each. Depth of each box is ~15 inches and the mounting depth of the driver is 7.25 inches.

Would I be better off using both boxes as planned?

Or, should I use one box for both drivers in dual opposing as you suggested for a 5-6 cube box? Will the drivers be too far away in this configuration? Is 4.76 cubes too small for two Shiva-X's? Maybe some poly-fill will do the trick? Sorry I am not sure how to run calcs on 2 drivers in one box.
post #28 of 30
Thread Starter 
Well, I decided not to go DIY. But, I bought the EP1500 and now I need to sell it.

If I return this amp to the company I bought it from, it would cost me an arm and a leg to pay for two shipping fees and a restocking fee. Instead, I would rather have some lucky individual out there get this at a discounted price, especially if you live near Dallas (i.e. no shipping costs).

I have posted a classified ad on this site to sell the amp for $140 if anyone is interested. PM me if you have any questions.

Regardless, thanks for all the help.
post #29 of 30
What did you decide on?
post #30 of 30
Thread Starter 
Hsu vtf 2.3. It will be here Monday.
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