New HD distribution via QAM tuners from Bocs? Cheap HD Modulation? - Page 3

I got mine up and running in maybe 10 mins. Works as advertised, great product, great value. The quick-start guide should say what channels are used as default, I had to go to the website, but no biggie.

I just got an email about tje ZvBox 150 being released. It looks like $999 is the lowest price for HD at this point. Fingers crossed we get that HD upgrade .

Josh, Great News! 10min, wow. How many TVs did you set up? I am waiting on the HD also, but may actually pull the trigger on another SD box to have 6 source capability soon.

heffneil, please let us know what you think!

I only tested it on two (2) TVs - laundry room is the PERFECT use for this though... No need for a cable box is great.

FYI in those 10 mins I did not bother to program the remote, just hookup and get video to another TV...

My setup might be easier because I have home-run cables to my equipment room, all with labels.

After reading about the BOCS unit here for the last couple of weeks, I am seriously thinking about picking one up. I have a few questions and hopefully someone here will be able to help answer before I take the plunge.

I get my TV shows with an Over-The-Air antenna and my movies through Netflix. I do not subscribe to cable or satellite TV, just don’t want to pay the monthly fees. My series one Tivo pretty much became useless with the recent OTA digital broadcast transition. I can hook up an external digital tuner since the series one Tivo has external video input ports but all of the convenience of Tivo recording features are no longer available.

I jumped on the recent Father’s Day special where the HD Tivo + lifetime subscription went for $500. I’m quite happy with the new unit but I am now stuck trying to figure out what to do with the old one. EBay will not fetch much and landfill seemed such a waste.

So I had the idea of converting the old Tivo into a video server along with the BOCS Xtender.
1. I can dump part of my DVD collection onto the old Tivo. Especially the TV series on DVDs that I have been meaning to watch. There’s the 5 seasons of 24 and the complete series of West Wing I got at a great deal but still unopened in their original wrapper!
2. I can use the new HD Tivo to record kids shows and then offload them onto the old Tivo so the kids can still use the playback features with the Tivo system they love.

Several questions:
- How is the video quality using the Xtender on bigger screens? It seems from the various reviews the video quality is decent on smaller screens. How is it on a 42” 1080p LCD?
- Will I be able to hook up the new HD Tivo to the Xtender? When I play back a show recorded in HD will there be a signal coming out of the composite port to drive the Xtender?
- Are there copy right protections preventing transfers between Tivo’s using the A/V ports? I still remember the days when VCRs have messed with the video blanking portion of the video signal to prevent duplication.
- I have a couple of Logitech Harmony remotes that I have gotten to like. How will those work in conjunction with the Xtender remote?
- Will the Xtender work in conjunction with a Sling Box so that I can have the in-home sharing over coax convenience and also Ethernet access away from home?
- When streaming music, will I be able to playback using only an FM receiver hooked up to the coax or must I have a TV band tuner on the receiver? I recall reading somewhere that the Xtender uses the FM band for transmission.

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.

ucbenger,

As an owner of 2 SDTivos and 1HDTivo, I'm suprised the SD Tivos can't be configured to control a $40 OTA Digital converter box that has IR remote. I would search around a little more on this if I were you.

The Xtender video quality is quite good, but only as good as the input signal quality up to 480 lines (720x480) of resolution. The Composite Video output from my HDTiVo is noticeably better than that from my SDTiVOs. I think the HDTiVo channel looks very good on all of my TVs including my 52" LCD, and acceptable on my 110" projection screen. The SD Tivo's look a bit softer. Seating distance from the screens is a factor also. My wife is completely oblivious to the differences so it depends on your sensitivity to video quality differences too.

Yes, The HDTivo works great with the BOCs Xtender Hub! And yes, it looks even better with HD source material than SD source material!

I don't know if there is any kind of integrated Macrovision type protection on the TiVO's, but it doesn't impact the BOCs Xtender Hub's functionality, so I'm guessing not. I know there is a VCR recording function on the SDTiVos for backing up recordings to VCRs, but I never tried it. As far as copyright protection, I think since you are going to the analog domain, it is OK to record the programs for personnal viewing purposes, but am not a lawyer.

Good questions on the Harmony remotes. To use in a room other than where the BOCs Xtender Hub is, you need a compatible RF path to the Xtender. If your Logitech remotes are the RF ones, I think you could put the R receiver next to the BOCs Xtender Hub and use the IR Blaster wire from that attached to the IR receiver on the BOCs Xtender, but you would need to verify with BOCs as I have not tried this. Maybe an IR remote would work in the same room as the BOCs Xtender Hub for the same reason, but you would need to verify.

I don't have a Sling Box, but conceptually this should work, but again, I would ask BOCs customer service as they probably have customers who are doing this if it is possible. Go to www.bocsco.com.

When distributing audio, there are many ways to do this depending on your setup and end goals. 1) Use a source, like HDTivo, with either Rhapsody or linked to a computer with your MP3 collection (Tivo Server), etc and just control it like you would today via the HDTiVo interface and through the BOCs Xtender Hub. You can serve your photos this way too. 2) Use a more direct source like an IPOD Dock or a computer with composite video output that can be controlled by an IR Remote and set it up as a source for the Xtender. This is going to be one of my next projects after add 3 more sources through an additional BOCs Xtender Hub!

No you won't be able to hook up a FM receiver directly to the COAX and get FM Radio on all your TVs. Think of that FM band over coax like an antenna input to your FM receiver from the cable company.

You could run the analog Left Right Audio Line Outs from your FM Receiver as an input to your BOCs and then the associated channel would have that sound play through the TVs speakers, but the remote control would be a challenge unless your FM receiver has an On Screen Display and comosite video output for tuning channels, etc. Hmmm, I need to check my Denon to see if it supports this!

Hope this helps a little!
DLB

Hey David,

Thanks so much for your detailed explanations and suggestions. I checked the back of the series one Tivo and to my surprise there is an output IR blaster port! It looks like it was to be used to control an external Satellite tuner. Quick check on the Tivo setup menu confirmed this. The question now is whether the programmed code inside of the old Tivo will support an ATSC tuner box. Possibly with a firmware upgrade? Maybe a quick check at the Tivo user forum will shed some light. Thanks again for your suggestion.

Good to know that HD content playback through composite port of the HD Tivo shows up better than SD content. I guess this means the weak link in the setup is the quality of the recorded content rather than the quality of the processing circuits inside of the Xtender. This should make the decision for me to go with the SD unit now a little easier instead of having to wait for the HD unit.

Thanks again for taking the time to write up all of the details...especially for a newbie like me!

-Could I distribute the video from my two SD satellite boxes with the Bocs?
-Is there a need to amplify the signal with coax cable runs under 100'?

Rubics,

As long as your SD satellite boxes have Composite video + Left and Right Audio outputs (RCA Jacks) and incorporate and use an IR Remote Control, then the BOCs Xtender Hub should be able to work with them. You would also have to relocate both satellite boxes to the same location as the BOCs Xtender Hub. There is more information on the www.bocsco.com website. You can download the manuals there. There are people using this today with DirecTV and DISH systems.

The BOCs Xtender Supercombiner has an integrated signal amplifier that works very well and I have coax runs greater than 100'.

David,

I'm actually thinking of going the IPod dock route. My concern is playing the music back using the TV speakers with their limited frequency response. For most locations the music thru TV would be fine but at places where I have an HiFi system already set up, it would be nice to be able to pick up the Xtender transmission with the FM receiver instead of having to go through the TV tuner.

I checked the BOCS website and there is no mention of the capability of transmitting over the FM band so that the audio can be picked up by an FM receiver unless of course the receiver has an TV band tuner built-in. I'd supposed that I can use the audio out of the TV to drive the HiFi but that requires turning on the TV.

BTW, with two Xtenders you have six inputs. What do you hook up to them? Were you able to find codes on the Xtender remote to control all of your gears? Thx

JZ

Thank you David fro your reply. You say I won't need any amplification but what if I need to split the signal up to 8 times to the diferent locations? I heard the lost of power happens in the splitter.
I am really interested in purchasing this unit. My only concern is the fact that it only has three inputs. Other modulators for the same price are able to modulate 4 sources wich would be ideal for me: Two satellite receivers, a computer/media server, and my security cameras.

Let me hit a couple of these as well -

Re copy protection - within the analog world, the only copy protection is macrovision. Some devices overlay it, some do not - So far, I've not seen anything that effects the video quality of the BOCS unit - but if you ever run across anything, Best Buy sells a nice little box that "cleans up" macrovision problems - how you use that is on the honor system I guess. The only thing I've ever used it for is removing the macrovision so I can grab movies on my Archos media player.

Re - BOCS and Harmony (or any other universal remote for that matter) - We tried to keep the BOCS remotes (and therefore use-ability) "brain dead simple" so in this first version we steered away from macros and complicated setup routines. (Although frankly I've modified the firmware to add a macro or two for my own use) - but if you have a big home theater, many folks want to stick with a highly programmable remote. So, what we recommend is that you create three new macros on your Harmony remote - Red, Green, and Blue - each one changes the TV to the correct input (in this case likely HDMI1, HDMI2, HDMI3) and then the RF basestation for that harmony remote would sit right next to the BOCS unit and have its own IR bugs glued right next to ours. That way every TV in the home is still the same - at remote TVs BOCS remotes control the entertainment, and at the big TV the fancy programmable remote does, but you are still pushing Red, Green, or Blue -

Re - Sling Box - Yes absolutely - works great and I have that in my own setup as well - you simply split the video signal and one goes to BOCS and the other Sling.

Re - FM band - yes - we use the FM band to transmit the signals, and while I have had success using only a receiver to play back the music, that feature has not been well tested. (I'd be willing to offer a free remote to anyone that might be willing to test it out and post a brief report!!)

Rubics: (This doesnt happen to be Rubic of Burbank does it?)

(I'm with BOCS - by way of full disclosure) -

Power out of the BOCS unit is variable - unlike traditional modulators, we can put out up to 30dB - I've personally installed in hundreds of homes, and I think I've only needed an extra amp in three that I can recall. The issue normally is balance rather than a need for more raw power.

First, the output "power" is controlled from any remote (I put a youtube video up showing how to do that - search for BOCS Xtender and you will find the "library")
You hold down a couple buttons on the remote and you can adjust the power from about 10dB to upwards of 30dB - should be plenty until you get up to 16 or so splits (depending on exactly how the splitters are hooked up).

Back to balance - couple of notes, there is about 7dB of drop from the Xtender port on the supercombiner to the RF out - so max output is actually about 23dB to the rest of the house - if you need that much to get a clear BOCS signal throughout the home and your CATV signal coming into the home is less than about 10dB, then sometimes there is enough imbalance that an added amp on the CATV side is necessary - problem is if you get a big one (15dB or so) then the CATV can then swamp the BOCS signal, so, what I usually do is put the amp after the supercombiner and before the main splitter (on the RF out of Supercombiner) that way both the CATV signal and the BOCS channel get amplified and you can then turn down the BOCS output power to balance.

Good luck -

David Feller

Sorry - I completely missed your second question - 4 inputs.
I had the same problem so I put in two BOCS units - I have 6 sources (it is one of those things, you have 4 now but if you had 6 inputs staring you down you would find two more things to plug in - trust me :-) )

The Second BOCS unit is a bit more tricky to install as the FM band is "all ate up" with the first three channels - so I put mine on 76 78 80 - but you have to either wire "carefully" - see the "reviewers needed posts" under whole home distribution for more info - or make sure you do not step on a good channel.

But to be clear, if your fourth input is merely security cameras you really do not need to buy a second BOCS unit (lightening is striking I think) - the security cameras dont have need of IR control, so you can just get a cheap off the shelf modulator and add them to the mix independently...

Let me ask you a question... or two. The way you access the "modulated" channels is presing either Red, Blue, or Green on the remote control. Do these Red, Blue, and Green match with any channel in the tv set? In other words, could I use the TV's remote control and press a channel and be able to connect with the "modulated" signal as you would with a standard RF modulator?
and Could I move from watching tv in the living room to watching tv in the bedroom with the same remote control and be able to control both Televissions of different maker without the need to reprogram the remote control?

Any update on the approximate arival time of these? i.e. 2009? 2010? etc

The SD version is available now - it works like a charm.

The HD add-on is a future product.

Thanks David. That sounds promising. It would be a much cleaner solution than having to drag my old VCR out of the closet and use its UHF tuner to pick up the audio signals for the HiFi system. Using the FM tuner on the receiver will save the space and power of going the VCR tuner method.

I don't mind helping to test and even write up a report but I don't have an Xtender yet. Any updates on that special promotion on the Xtender you'd mentioned a few posts ago?

Ok so I am finally starting to play with my Xtender. It is no fault of the Xtender that I am so slow to getting this working. It is amazing how things sometimes work. I was running out of room in the AV rack so I finally bit the bullet and ordered a Russound C series whole home audio system to replace the Speaker Craft. I bought the house with the Speaker Craft and I just couldn't get it to work consistently. That is for another time. Anyway I was able to pull out 3 CD changes and a big honking receiver I no longer need. With that additional space I started the installation of the Xtender. A couple of weeks ago I had the electricians relocate the coax into the AC rack. I was experiencing problems with my cable so I wanted to get that all straight before I attempted this. Turns out my Leviton 1x8 amp/splitter crapped the bed and wasn't boosting signal any longer. The cable company put their cheap drop amps and splitters on and got everything working. After they left I went and cleaned up all my coax and I mounted all my splitters and drop amps on a 1u shelf and I think it looks pretty neat. I put a power strip on the shelf and the cable modem even fit. The supercombiner is on there as well. Maybe I will post a picture of this later. I actually want to redo this in a 1 u shelf that slides out for easier access and maintenance down the road.

Anyway when I made the shelf distribution system I did put the supercombiner in but without the Xtender hooked up. It was then that I realized that the supercombiner requires power from the Xtender. This was a little troubling but I moved on. I disconnected it until today. I plugged it in and ran a coax from the Xtender to the supercombiner that turned out to be too short. So I went and made a new coax cable and reconnected it to the supercombiner. I then tested cable tv and didn't work. I was scratching my head and trying to figure out what had happened. Then I realized I didn't hook the new cable which reached up to the Xtender. Brain fart. But another realization was that I wish the supercombiner had a power indicator light. Plugged in the cable and was ready to go but to my sadness there was still no cable tv. I then consulted the directions. Being a manly man I never do that. I think the directions confused me more honestly. One point is that the instructions are not technical and expected me to put the Xtender where a cable box already resided. It was a bit confusing as to which coax was what. But the problems were compounded by the fact that the Xtender had different labels on the coax ports than the directions! Ultimately I tried the ANT IN port which was the proper one and cable tv works again. That is about as far as I have gotten now. I did plug in my last SageTV HD100 as the first device to test with. I am probably over complicating this initial test since the HD100 isn't one of the predefined Devices.

In summary I would wish for:

Better directions which could be more technical and labeled inline with the devices labels on the coax ports.

A supercombiner that passed through cable without the Xtender being plugged in. I don't know if this is even possible but it's my wish list.

A power light indicator on the supercombiner.

SageTV HD100 HD200 devices codes. It would be nice but I gather there isn't a lot of demand.

Again this is just a wish list. I am not moving on to pairing remotes and I will report back my findings soon.

Thanks!

Neil

Heffneil, Sorry to hear about the troubles. On the supercombiner power light, there is an LED inside the supercombiner that you can see if you look inside one of the connectors, I forget, which one.

It isn't the end of the world. I don't want to sound like I am complaining but if everything went smoothly I would be more worried ! I don't want to make anyone turned off from the product because I sure am not. I still love the idea and people have proven that it works. I got my SageTV box hooked up and I programed the remote / Xtender depending on how you look at it. Im having a couple issues with that and my range isn't reaching where I am testing. I need to deploy the repeated I bought. It is a little surprising its a little complex and not plug and play for the repeater. If I hadn't read the directions (remember I normally don't) I wouldn't have known it needed to be paired.

Neil

1. The Supercombiner runs about 20 degrees above ambient - it has a couple of "honker" amplifiers in it. We have them running in Texas attics and have not had any problems so far - failures etc. It is definitely warm but falls well within the chip specs. A heat sync might be in order though.

2. Yes - remotes "could" be used on multiple TVs - in fact I started that wasy but ended up just getting one for each TV to peak the "WAF" as Baldwin puts it... If you happen to have a bunch of TVs with the same IR codes you are set - I bought 5 magnavox TVs all the same time at Costco a while back - The remotes don't know where they are, they just need to control a TV. You can also program a different TV into the three other local buttons at the bottom of the remote - problem is the Red, Green, and Blue buttons use the number codes programmed into "Local TV" button to tune when you go to a BOCS channel - so (and yes this is really awkward) - you could put a second TV in the "CBL" button - then to use, you would press CBL, hit the corresponding channel 14 for Red, 98 for Green, and 96 for Blue, then hold your hand over the front of the remote and hit the color you want...) - remember I said awkward - but it works.

Good luck
DF

Neil - no worries - we are most DEFINITELY looking for feedback - comments good or bad are what we are after -
Good thoughts on the repeater operation - I was actually thinking of a small card that had to be ripped off the repeater before operation that stated the setup steps - (press bind button on Xtender, plug in repeater) -

Did your repeater come with any instructions in the box at all? Sounds like I need to go beat someone...

Thanks again for the feedback.

On your wish list -
1) Better instructions - actually working on that right now - I think the key is better "self-explanatory pictures"... Long story short, we started with the installer channel and did not originally write the instructions for the end consumer - mistake on my part I think.

2) Supercombiner that passes without Xtender being plugged in - We actually have one - in fact, it can be turned "off" from any BOCS remote so you get all your cable channels back all over the home (in case someone in the home REALLY wants QVC on channel 98) - but they drop an extra 7dB or so from input to output even when powered and that means having to add an extra amp to your cable system depending on how stingy the cable guys are with signal to your home, so we did not include that by default. If anyone wants/needs one or would like to try one out just drop me a note.

3) Power light on supercombiner - Dave B answered that one - again long story short, the reason for hiding it in the RF-in was to keep the weatherseal integrity. I couldn'd find a cheap case from Asia that was weather resistent and didn't leak RF with an LED hole (passing FCC is a real pain I must say)

4) Sage TV codes (or let me expand that to AppleTV, ipod docks etc) - Problem is the UEI codes we use are for a universal remote and they have not added those default to their codebase. But - every remote and every Xtender will learn (or can be upgraded to learning - free if you drop me a note with the serial numbers in question) to "suck the codes in"... If you are really ambitious, there are some nice folks over at the JP1 forums who specialize in hacking remotes to add codes. Not brain-dead simple but fun to play with things like that.

Good luck - and I've just Privat Messaged you with my cell phone number - feel free to use me as your primary technical support.

Hey - I just noticed you said you had just set your system up for the baby cameras - I'm looking for someone to write that application up a bit and post a mini-review on how you did it, how it works etc... I'm happy to send a free remote as consideration of your time to do so. I think there is a big market for security and BOCS. Let me know.

Also - I probably didn't fully answer this the first reply - We decided to make the repeater only work if paired so your neighbor's remotes (yes my goal is one in every home in America) will not bounce through your repeater. For cost reasons, you can only use one repeater per home (it is time slot managed rather than purely addressable collision avoidance) so two repeaters on one system tend to step on each other.

I programmed my remote since it is learning with the SageTV remote. I think I still have a issue getting to the Xtender from my bathroom. Once my mother-in-law leaves I will move the cable box in to the rack with my Xtender and my testing should be easier and more simplified.

I have an HAI DVR system that has a coax out. I plan on hooking up the one channel to this device but I still have a lot more pieces of the puzzle (camera side) before I will be prepared to do that. Probably in the next couple of weeks or so.

Neil

I've been mostly following this thread and I'm struggling to comprehend some parts of it.
I have a modulator (with IR), and fully understand that.

What exactly is this system?
A "special" modulator?
A remote with color-coded buttons instead of channel numbers?
Looks like an RF remote?
It modulates on normal analog channels or digital channels?
Can you use a different remote--like a Harmony or something?

The part that I'm interested in is the HD distribution.
Will there be a box on top of each TV for that?
Why isn't it thousands of dollars like the other HD modulators?

For the record, I'm PLENTY FINE with someone developing an "easier to use" modulator. To me, it appears that is what this is. Installing mine, I can see where people would be overwhelmed and that's if they even managed to figure out that a modulator is what they needed. It does appear to be a simpler, sleeker, easier to understand setup that does basically what my setup does. I bought an ABUS audio system largely because I understood the concept entirely.

I really don't want to make this a bitchfest and I have to admit I haven't called anyone / David Feller for support. I usually work on this late and night and strange times. So I have a bunch of problems:

1. I can't get the remote to repeat certain button presses. I can't press STOP STOP in a row. I can press STOP PAUSE STOP. STOP DOWN STOP but not STOP STOP. I can't press the skip back multiple times. In SageTV I need to be able to press STOP STOP in a row but it won't register the second press until I hit another button. Also I think the repeat or spead in which a subsequent button is pressed seems delayed. I saw a way to speed up local tv buton presses but is there a way to speed up the Xtender? Also if I hold a button it doesn't seem to repeat it (I could be wrong about this).

2. My range in the house is about 100 feet. I have to ask I paired the RF extender do I have to pair a remote with the RF Extender? I walked down the hall and the remote stopped working. I plugged in the RF Extender and it didn't do the three lights blink fast response. Then I moved the RF Extender a little further away and stood next to it with the remote and it worked. I walked 10 feet away from the RF Extender and got the three lights blinking fast. I still can't get the remote to work where the TV's are currently.


That is it for now but I am sure I will have new developments soon. David if you message me your email or something I will send you some questions but I like the public forum so hopefully other people can appreciate and gain help from this.

Thanks!

Neil

Have you heard of the $999 ZvPro 150?